The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics

[Kenny]

Kenny,

Your response demonstrates that either you fail to understand what I wrote or perhaps you are trying to side step answering it directly because you didn't like the conclusion.

The reasons for someone committing murder are by definition subjective Kenny,

I didn’t say that; I said weather the killing is murder or not is subjective. If the person killed is innocent it’s murder; if he is guilty it is not murder

whether murder is right or wrong is a different thing all together.

Now I was making the point that if certain actions are right or wrong regardless of what others think then objective morality exists.

Answer the question directly and to use something you did a few posts back:

Is murdering someone due to their skin colour wrong regardless of what other people think?

Yes or No.

Of course it is wrong! I’ve never suggested it was anything other than! But it is subjectively wrong; not objectively wrong. You seem to be under this impression (like many others here) that subjective morality is equal to no morality at all; that the only way morality counts is if it were objective.

Now that I’ve answered your question; please answer mine. Is lying to the SS wrong?

Ken

What would someone killed by someone else have to be guilty of for it not to be murder?

Crimes against the state, waging war against the state, etc. Legally Soldiers killed in battle are not considered murdered. Legally a person receiving the death penalty after trial is not considered murdered.

I think your firm beliefs about murder and your mention of a 'moral obligation' to mislead the SS really speak of a concrete, factual morality, which is independent of what some people might think.

[/quote]
But this only applies to me and those who agree with me on this particular issue; it doesn't apply to anybody else. In order for it to be factual and objective it would have to apply to everybody else also

Ken

[RickD]

They were direct yes/no questions Kenny.
I didn't ask whether it was/wasn't a value you personally have.

Which makes more sense.

Love is a value.
Love is a moral law.

Do not lie is a value.
Do not lie is moral law.

When you answer, then more than happy to answer your questions.

Thus far, none of the questions you asked were yes/no; they have all been (a)/(b). I answered the question the best way I know how, I don't know how I can make it any clearer. I see love as a value, I see the order "do not lie" as a law.

Ken

Yes Kureiuo,

Kenny is right. You didn't word the questions as yes or no questions. For the love of God K, please don't attempt to confuse Kenny, he's already confused enough without your help!!!!

[Kenny]

They were direct yes/no questions Kenny.
I didn't ask whether it was/wasn't a value you personally have.

Which makes more sense.

Love is a value.
Love is a moral law.

Do not lie is a value.
Do not lie is moral law.

When you answer, then more than happy to answer your questions.

Thus far, none of the questions you asked were yes/no; they have all been (a)/(b). I answered the question the best way I know how, I don't know how I can make it any clearer. I see love as a value, I see the order "do not lie" as a law.

Ken

Yes Kureiuo,

Kenny is right. You didn't word the questions as yes or no questions. For the love of God K, please don't attempt to confuse Kenny, he's already confused enough without your help!!!!

I am definitely not the confused one here

K

[Kurieuo]

They were direct yes/no questions Kenny.
I didn't ask whether it was/wasn't a value you personally have.

Which makes more sense.

Love is a value.
Love is a moral law.

Do not lie is a value.
Do not lie is moral law.

When you answer, then more than happy to answer your questions.

Thus far, none of the questions you asked were yes/no; they have all been (a)/(b). I answered the question the best way I know how, I don't know how I can make it any clearer. I see love as a value, I see the order "do not lie" as a law.

Ken

Yes Kureiuo,

Kenny is right. You didn't word the questions as yes or no questions. For the love of God K, please don't attempt to confuse Kenny, he's already confused enough without your help!!!!

I am definitely not the confused one here

Well, this all seems to be a matter of subjectivity.
What makes you think these objectively aren't really yes/no questions Kenny?
Using your logic, perhaps objective truth does not exist because we both have a difference of subjective opinion.

The following questions can indeed be answered with a 'yes' or 'no':

Consider love.
Is love a value or moral law?

Consider do not lie.
Is thou shalt not lie a value or moral law?

Kenny has answered them more specifically, which is even better for my response when I get to it (thanks Kenny).
So yes, love is a value or moral law. And, yes, thou shalt not lie is a value or moral law. (says Kenny)