Is impeachment and removal from office possible? What would it take?

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edwardmurphy
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Re: Is impeachment and removal from office possible? What would it take?

#91

Post by edwardmurphy » Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:08 am

Kurieuo wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:32 pm
Truly a conspiracy.on par with Alex Jones'. Only it got wings with the MSM.
Yeah, no.

The Russian conspiracy to aid the Trump campaign was confirmed to be real, and a bunch of Russian military officers have been indicted. Whether or not Trump will swallow his pride and do anything about it remains to be seen, but let's not pretend it didn't happen.

Evidence of collusion by Americans wasn't uncovered, although how that's possible is beyond me. As I said before, Giuliani knew that the stolen DNC docs were coming and bragged about it on TV the day before they dropped. Members of the Trump campaign met with Russian nationals to discuss damaging info on Clinton. Anyway, this doesn't smell right to me.

Regarding obstruction, Mueller absolutely, 100% did not absolve Trump. Mueller pretty much punted that whole issue. He basically said "it's complicated" and left it to the DoJ to figure out. Trump was then absolved by his own newly appointed AG, William Barr. Again, this doesn't smell right to me.

I'm hopeful that most or all of the report will be released so that we can all look for ourselves.

As far as all the eggs being in one basket, it's worth noting that there are 17 other ongoing investigations of the Trump Organization, Trump Charities, Deutsche Bank, and a bunch of other stuff. So there's 17 baskets for the anti-Trump eggs.

And the fact that Trump's campaign wasn't caught colluding doesn't mean that they didn't collude or that it won't come out in the future, so there's another potential (and politically very real) basket.

Mueller's punt on obstruction is also going to have political legs. The Senate GOP blasted Barr through confirmation over strong Democratic objections so that he would be in position to cover Trump's ass, which is exactly what he just did. If he slow walks the release of the full report or opts to release anything less than everything that's going to feed the narrative that Barr is just another corrupt Trump crony. Obviously that's spin, but it's plausible spin and it'll get traction. So there's another basket.

And again, the fact that the Mueller investigation didn't end with a bang doesn't change the fact that a bunch of key Trump allies are in or enroute to prison and that a conspiracy by the Russian government was uncovered. Nobody outside of Trump's most fanatical supporters is buying the "drain the swamp" schtick anymore, and if Trump doesn't step up - immediately - to punish Russia he's going to look like he's either under Putin's thump or his ego has made him Putin's useful idiot. Either way, the report is a knife at Trump's back and a basket for plenty of Democratic eggs.

So sure, some good news for Trump, but also a lot of political peril. Don't buy tickets to his next inauguration just yet.
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Re: Is impeachment and removal from office possible? What would it take?

#92

Post by Stu » Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:16 am

edwardmurphy wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:08 am
And again, the fact that the Mueller investigation didn't end with a bang doesn't change the fact that a bunch of key Trump allies are in or enroute to prison and that a conspiracy by the Russian government was uncovered. If Trump doesn't step up - immediately - to make Russia regret their actions and stop them from doing it again then he's going to look like he's either under Putin's thump or his ego has made him Putin's useful idiot.
LOL America interferes in sovereign countries elections all the time - I think it is 43 times over the last 40 years or so and that doesn't include illegal invasions - so why would they turn around and point fingers at Russia. They are just doing what the US does all the time.
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Re: Is impeachment and removal from office possible? What would it take?

#93

Post by DBowling » Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:06 am

edwardmurphy wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:08 am
Regarding obstruction, Mueller absolutely, 100% did not absolve Trump. Mueller pretty much punted that whole issue. He basically said "it's complicated" and left it to the DoJ to figure out. Trump was then absolved by his own newly appointed AG, William Barr. Again, this doesn't smell right to me.
I'm not quite as cynical as you are regarding Barr's conclusion regarding obstruction...
You are correct that Mueller 'punted' on obstruction
The Special Counsel states that "while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him."
However, Attorney General Barr and Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein made the following determination
"In cataloguing the President's actions, many of which took place in public view, the report identifies no actions that, in our judgment, constitute obstructive conduct, had a nexus to a pending or contemplated proceeding, and were done with corrupt intent, each of which, under the Department's principles of federal prosecution guiding charging decisions, would need to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt to establish an obstruction-of-justice offense."

I think that it is significant that Barr alone did not make this determination, rather it was a joint determination between Barr and Rosenstein. I think Barr was smart to make it a joint determination with Rosenstein who was responsible for appointing the Special Counsel in the first place, and I think it adds additional credibility to the determination.
As far as all the eggs being in one basket, it's worth noting that there are 17 other ongoing investigations of the Trump Organization, Trump Charities, Deutsche Bank, and a bunch of other stuff. So there's 17 baskets for the anti-Trump eggs.
Since it was not part of the Special Council mandate, Mueller basically handed Trump's non-Russia related criminal behavior off to the Southern District of New York. And the Southern District is waiting for Trump to leave office before they indict him for those crimes.

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Re: Is impeachment and removal from office possible? What would it take?

#94

Post by edwardmurphy » Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:40 am

Stu - you're not wrong (although I'd need to see a citation for those numbers before calling you right), but "avoiding the appearance of hypocrisy" is no reason to allow foreign powers to destroy the integrity of our elections.
DBowling wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:06 am
I'm not quite as cynical as you are regarding Barr's conclusion regarding obstruction...
You are correct that Mueller 'punted' on obstruction
The Special Counsel states that "while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him."
However, Attorney General Barr and Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein made the following determination
"In cataloguing the President's actions, many of which took place in public view, the report identifies no actions that, in our judgment, constitute obstructive conduct, had a nexus to a pending or contemplated proceeding, and were done with corrupt intent, each of which, under the Department's principles of federal prosecution guiding charging decisions, would need to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt to establish an obstruction-of-justice offense."

I think that it is significant that Barr alone did not make this determination, rather it was a joint determination between Barr and Rosenstein. I think Barr was smart to make it a joint determination with Rosenstein who was responsible for appointing the Special Counsel in the first place, and I think it adds additional credibility to the determination.
I was mostly thinking about how the facts will be spun by both sides. Trump will crow vindication, but the incontrovertible fact is that Russia helped him win. The Dems will point out that a Trump appointee let Trump off the hook. Rosenstein's role will be downplayed. And frankly, after watching Trump acting guilty as sin on a daily basis for two years, I'm having a tough time accepting the findings. I watched him try to obstruct the investigation on live TV.

I also got a lot more cynical about the FBI and the DoJ when it came out that while Comey was publicly making a big deal about the Clinton emails - literally a few days before the election - the FBI was also investigating Trump as a possible hostile foreign agent, yet nobody saw fit to mention that chestnut to the voting public.

But yeah, adding Rosenstein to the findings was smart politics. Still suspicious, though.
DBowling wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:06 am
Since it was not part of the Special Council mandate, Mueller basically handed Trump's non-Russia related criminal behavior off to the Southern District of New York. And the Southern District is waiting for Trump to leave office before they indict him for those crimes.
I live in hope.

The only thing that's going to get this country back on the right track is a massive, overwhelming landslide rejection of Trump. I'd be happy to see 4 years of Democratic control, but more than that I want to see Trumpism annihilated and the GOP beaten so badly that they have to reconsider their approach. If they'd accepted the conclusions of that "autopsy" report and moved toward political centrism and inclusivity we'd be in much better shape as a nation.
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Re: Is impeachment and removal from office possible? What would it take?

#95

Post by Philip » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:20 am

Ed: Trump campaign met with Russian nationals to discuss damaging info on Clinton. Anyway, this doesn't smell right to me.
Ed: And the fact that Trump's campaign wasn't caught colluding doesn't mean that they didn't collude or that it won't come out in the future, so there's another potential (and politically very real) basket.
Look, either Mueller himself is totally incompetent, or corrupt and looked the other way, OR there wasn't anything of substance to be found. As for certain they looked in every seedy nook and cranny. And you know Democratic political operatives were working around the clock for people to send them any dirt they knew about to funnel to the investigators. Attorney General Barr reports that, including the two previous reports, the total cost of the investigation was nearly $13 million. Mueller’s team interviewed nearly 500 witnesses and issued about 2,800 subpoenas, indicted 37 people or entities, and in 22 months of investigating did not find that Trump or his associates coordinated or conspired with Russia to meddle in the 2016 election. So, knowing people all over were sending Mueller info that might take Trump down - they got NADA of substance! And so bad smells don't remove presidents!

And are we to believe that the Democrats weren't willing to try to seize the election by anything they could get their hands on, no matter the source, foreign or domestic? PLEASE! The Clinton campaign financed the "research" that led to the bogus Russian dossier - which was gleefully celebrated. They didn't give a dang about where damaging info might come from. It's hypocritical to say otherwise.

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Re: Is impeachment and removal from office possible? What would it take?

#96

Post by Philip » Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:53 pm

Hey, just noticed our resident "deep state" monitor Abe is missing - guess he's been too busy partying non-stop at the "No-Collusion" after party! :pound:

Image


Meanwhile, the Left sees the news!

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Re: Is impeachment and removal from office possible? What would it take?

#97

Post by Byblos » Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:23 pm

You want a collusion indictment? How about the media's collusion with Hillary to bury her role in this entire fiasco. Just imagine everyone's reaction then (or Ed's for that matter) if Hillary is actually investigated for her part in initiating and orchestrating this whole thing. I won't hold my breath though. The media is too busy focusing on eating crow.

Part of my support for the Don is my utter disdain for the Clintons, the most corrupt of all politicians and that's saying something.
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Re: Is impeachment and removal from office possible? What would it take?

#98

Post by DBowling » Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:33 pm

Byblos wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:23 pm
Part of my support for the Don is my utter disdain for the Clintons, the most corrupt of all politicians and that's saying something.
Oh... I can think of another politician who is just as immoral, dishonest, and corrupt as the Clintons.

If your disdain for the Clintons is truly based on their behavior, then I would expect you to have equal disdain for a politician on the other side of the aisle whose behavior has proven to be equally corrupt as that of the Clintons.

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Re: Is impeachment and removal from office possible? What would it take?

#99

Post by Byblos » Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:57 pm

DBowling wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:33 pm
Byblos wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:23 pm
Part of my support for the Don is my utter disdain for the Clintons, the most corrupt of all politicians and that's saying something.
Oh... I can think of another politician who is just as immoral, dishonest, and corrupt as the Clintons.

If your disdain for the Clintons is truly based on their behavior, then I would expect you to have equal disdain for a politician on the other side of the aisle whose behavior has proven to be equally corrupt as that of the Clintons.

Err nope, love the Don. MAGA baby. :mrgreen:
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Re: Is impeachment and removal from office possible? What would it take?

#100

Post by Philip » Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:15 pm

DB: Oh... I can think of another politician who is just as immoral, dishonest, and corrupt as the Clintons.

If your disdain for the Clintons is truly based on their behavior, then I would expect you to have equal disdain for a politician on the other side of the aisle whose behavior has proven to be equally corrupt as that of the Clintons.
Politically, DB is kind of like the anti-ACB! :lol:

The problem is, in the end, when you have only two choices, you have to make a very difficult choice. What I fear is that Trump's aggressive / crass style and approach is going to become the new normal. Now, partisanship is a dirty word. Demonizing the other side and despising them - that is the new way. Look at Omar, AOC - some others (Republicans, too) - they are taking on Trump's approach. We need some mature people in both parties. But quieter and mature isn't very exciting or sexy, is it? No one wants Calvin Coolidge - they want politicians with a "take-no-prisoners" approach. And whey you begin to tag all of your political opponents as evil, you'll kill all possibility of reaching out, having good compromises. Politicians lie and act as if their followers can get all they want. But NO one can! So we see this sad sophomoric posturing. And those pandering to those with every perceived slight, offense and PC sensibility. It's why Christ and the Apostles didn't hand out very much political advice - cause that's not the real problem we have.

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Re: Is impeachment and removal from office possible? What would it take?

#101

Post by DBowling » Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:09 pm

Philip wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:15 pm
DB: Oh... I can think of another politician who is just as immoral, dishonest, and corrupt as the Clintons.

If your disdain for the Clintons is truly based on their behavior, then I would expect you to have equal disdain for a politician on the other side of the aisle whose behavior has proven to be equally corrupt as that of the Clintons.
Politically, DB is kind of like the anti-ACB! :lol:
are accusing me of being anti fact free assertions and anti alt-right misinformation?
... well ...
...guilty as charged...
:P

Political labels are never totally accurate, but politically speaking, it would be fairly accurate to think of me as a Reagan Republican (the first President I ever voted for).
It's why Christ and the Apostles didn't hand out very much political advice - cause that's not the real problem we have.
very... very... very... very... important point that Christians of every political persuasion need to take to heart!!!!!!!

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Re: Is impeachment and removal from office possible? What would it take?

#102

Post by edwardmurphy » Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:37 pm

Philip wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:20 am
Look, either Mueller himself is totally incompetent, or corrupt and looked the other way, OR there wasn't anything of substance to be found.
Nobody outside of the Justice Department has seen the Mueller report. Trump is crowing about William Barr's overview of the report. William Barr is a Trump appointee hand picked to put an end to the Mueller investigation. He's on record saying that he doesn't think that Mueller has the right to investigate Trump for obstruction of justice. He's also on the record stating that time spent investigating collusion between Trump and Russia would be better spent investigating Uranium One - a completely fake scandal.
Philip wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:20 am
And are we to believe that the Democrats weren't willing to try to seize the election by anything they could get their hands on, no matter the source, foreign or domestic? PLEASE!
A hypothetical whataboutism...?

Come on, Phil.
Philip wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:20 am
The Clinton campaign financed the "research" that led to the bogus Russian dossier - which was gleefully celebrated. They didn't give a dang about where damaging info might come from. It's hypocritical to say otherwise.
Fusion GPS was initially hired by the Washington Free Beacon to do opposition research on Trump. The (conservative activist) WFB dropped their request when Trump won the GOP nomination. Clinton aides also asked for opposition research - because duh, everybody does that - and Fusion GPS passed the old WFB account over to them. Beyond that, although there's all kinds of salacious craziness in the dossier, there's also a lot that's been confirmed to be true. And finally, the frequent GOP claim that the dossier somehow caused the Mueller investigation is a lie.
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Re: Is impeachment and removal from office possible? What would it take?

#103

Post by edwardmurphy » Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:55 pm

Philip wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:15 pm
The problem is, in the end, when you have only two choices, you have to make a very difficult choice.
Clinton was 2 years ago. She won't be back. So you can choose another 4 years of scandal, corruption, and chaos, or you can take a chance on a Democrat.
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Re: Is impeachment and removal from office possible? What would it take?

#104

Post by RickD » Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:57 pm

edwardmurphy wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:55 pm
Philip wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:15 pm
The problem is, in the end, when you have only two choices, you have to make a very difficult choice.
Clinton was 2 years ago. She won't be back. So you can choose another 4 years of scandal, corruption, and chaos, or you can take a chance on a Democrat.
America had enough scandal, corruption, and chaos. That's why America took a chance on Trump.
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Re: Is impeachment and removal from office possible? What would it take?

#105

Post by Philip » Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:23 pm

Ed: Nobody outside of the Justice Department has seen the Mueller report. Trump is crowing about William Barr's overview of the report. William Barr is a Trump appointee hand picked to put an end to the Mueller investigation. He's on record saying that he doesn't think that Mueller has the right to investigate Trump for obstruction of justice. He's also on the record stating that time spent investigating collusion between Trump and Russia would be better spent investigating Uranium One - a completely fake scandal.
Barr did not make that decision alone - he consulted with Rosenstein over it. And Barr has told Lindsay Graham he is willing to testify before the Senate Judiciary committee over the Mueller investigation.
Ed: Clinton aides also asked for opposition research - because duh, everybody does that - and Fusion GPS passed the old WFB account over to them. Beyond that, although there's all kinds of salacious craziness in the dossier, there's also a lot that's been confirmed to be true. And finally, the frequent GOP claim that the dossier somehow caused the Mueller investigation is a lie.
When Trump fired Comey, that was certainly when the pressure for an investigation intensified, but make no mistake, knowledge of this dossier was also the talk of everyone and brought a lot of suspicion - so, a combination of reasons, but the dossier was certainly an influence. Of course, Buzzfeed leaked it without verification. That dossier was the poorest kept secret - a document that even uber-liberal journalist Bob Woodward called, a "garbage document." No one has the slightest idea as to the truth of much of it - lots of purposeful disinformation - who knows?

Wikipedia notes: "On January 11, 2017, Newsweek published a list of "13 things that don't add up" in the dossier, writing that it was a "strange mix of the amateur and the insightful" and stating that it "contains lots of Kremlin-related gossip that could indeed be, as the author claims, from deep insiders—or equally gleaned" from Russian newspapers and blogs.[188] Former UK ambassador to Russia Sir Tony Brenton stated that certain aspects of the dossier were inconsistent with British intelligence's understanding of how the Kremlin works, commenting: "I've seen quite a lot of intelligence on Russia, and there are some things in [the dossier] which look pretty shaky."

Christopher Steele doesn't know what is true in the dossier, and admits he speculates on much of it. But again, you can bet every spook on the block who wanted to bring Trump down over this would have provided Mueller anything he desired. And still he discovered no collusion.

I will say this: The Clinton campaign apparently did not know who fusion GPS hired, nor that Steele was their client. So, the money for the research was indirect - and the research was already ongoing. But with operatives in an American presidential race, I wouldn't be surprised at who knew what, or who leaked of funneled whatever. But with all these unfriendly, supposedly knowledgeable sources digging everywhere for dirt - Mueller didn't find any? How likely is that if it actually exists?

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