Making political statements in sports

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JediMasterAaron
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Re: Making political statements in sports

Postby JediMasterAaron » Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:57 pm

RickD wrote:
jedimasteraaron wrote:
...that I haven't got a solid answer to yet. What's the proper way for black people to protest?



Since you missed it the first time, in my post here, this is my suggestion, as an answer to your question. Athletes are public figures. News stations want people to watch. Sounds like a win-win:
RickD wrote:
Why can't athletes ask CNN or MSNBC or foxnews for an interview?


They could, but I doubt it would have the same effect. It would get covered for a few days before being rotated out of the news cycle.

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Re: Making political statements in sports

Postby RickD » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:04 pm

Philip,

The issue is institutional racism (IR) in America, currently.

We'd all agree that there was institutional racism in America. Segregation/Jim Crow laws are an example of institutional racism.

When people cry "Institutional Racism", I've yet to see anyone give any examples that exist in the US today. I'm not saying IR doesn't exist, btw. I am open to the possibility that it still may exist. That's why it's so important to bring IR to light, so something can be done about it.

Racism is pure evil. But crying institutional racism without citing examples, is counterproductive to actually trying to fight racism.
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Re: Making political statements in sports

Postby JediMasterAaron » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:06 pm

Philip wrote:As for institutional racism - SURE it exists! No question! And every society's minorities will experience it. Why - because our sinful human nature favors our own children, ken, race - people that are more like us than different from us. Yep, terribly sinful, but that is how much of the world works. Go to Europe, it's not necessarily race, but nationality or religion. Go to Africa - you'll see minority tribes treated with disdain by those in the majority ones. I used to work in a company that had NO black employees - purposely! Why? Because the owners didn't feel comfortable with people they didn't culturally identify with. Some went further, thinking minorities were inferior. There are many institutional biases designed to favor whatever leadership's sensibilities - and race may or may not be one of them.

But Rick is correct, in that, many who their first impulse is of some institutional bias - even racism - they may be totally wrong. And you can bet that those who constantly think of or expect themselves to be a victim of such bias, will much quicker expect or suspect it. It's very personally harmful to view thing incorrectly through the lens of race. Also, as Christians, we need to lovingly convince others that they are wrong, show some grace - attempt to influence them to change their hearts and minds to see things as God wants us to. Just showing contempt, anger and hatred, demonizing people you disagree with - that's not changing anyone, and it's certainly only going to make things worse. As Christians, we should be seeking to see how God might use us to be part of the solution - as opposed the more gas on the fire!


It was never my intent to demonize anyone, I'm sorry if that's how it came across. I certainly don't view myself as some sort of victim, but I do recognize that there is a problem. See race, don't see it, doesn't make much difference to me. Just matters how you treat them. Same thing about institutional racism, believe it or not, as long as you know there is a problem then we're on the right track. The main scripture tonight in my youth group was Proverbs 16:32, I don't think that was an accident.

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Re: Making political statements in sports

Postby RickD » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:07 pm

JediMasterAaron wrote:
RickD wrote:
jedimasteraaron wrote:
...that I haven't got a solid answer to yet. What's the proper way for black people to protest?



Since you missed it the first time, in my post here, this is my suggestion, as an answer to your question. Athletes are public figures. News stations want people to watch. Sounds like a win-win:
RickD wrote:
Why can't athletes ask CNN or MSNBC or foxnews for an interview?


They could, but I doubt it would have the same effect. It would get covered for a few days before being rotated out of the news cycle.

Not if it were a valid point that they're protesting. Did Rosa Parks refusal to sit in the back of the bus, get rotated out of the news and forgotten? No. Why? Because racial segregation was an evil that was part of the institutional racism in the govt.

See how that works?
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
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Re: Making political statements in sports

Postby JediMasterAaron » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:10 pm

RickD wrote:Philip,

The issue is institutional racism (IR) in America, currently.

We'd all agree that there was institutional racism in America. Segregation/Jim Crow laws are an example of institutional racism.

When people cry "Institutional Racism", I've yet to see anyone give any examples that exist in the US today. I'm not saying IR doesn't exist, btw. I am open to the possibility that it still may exist. That's why it's so important to bring IR to light, so something can be done about it.

Racism is pure evil. But crying institutional racism without citing examples, is counterproductive to actually trying to fight racism.


I have to go to bed, but try looking up recent information about housing, income, education, job opportunities.

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Re: Making political statements in sports

Postby JediMasterAaron » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:12 pm

RickD wrote:
JediMasterAaron wrote:
RickD wrote:
jedimasteraaron wrote:
...that I haven't got a solid answer to yet. What's the proper way for black people to protest?



Since you missed it the first time, in my post here, this is my suggestion, as an answer to your question. Athletes are public figures. News stations want people to watch. Sounds like a win-win:
RickD wrote:
Why can't athletes ask CNN or MSNBC or foxnews for an interview?


They could, but I doubt it would have the same effect. It would get covered for a few days before being rotated out of the news cycle.

Not if it were a valid point that they're protesting. Did Rosa Parks refusal to sit in the back of the bus, get rotated out of the news and forgotten? No. Why? Because racial segregation was an evil that was part of the institutional racism in the govt.

See how that works?


Yes. It doesn't guarantee that people who disagree would listen though, and I think it's important that the opposing side in some way feels a desire to help a cause.

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Re: Making political statements in sports

Postby RickD » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:16 pm

JediMasterAaron wrote:
RickD wrote:Philip,

The issue is institutional racism (IR) in America, currently.

We'd all agree that there was institutional racism in America. Segregation/Jim Crow laws are an example of institutional racism.

When people cry "Institutional Racism", I've yet to see anyone give any examples that exist in the US today. I'm not saying IR doesn't exist, btw. I am open to the possibility that it still may exist. That's why it's so important to bring IR to light, so something can be done about it.

Racism is pure evil. But crying institutional racism without citing examples, is counterproductive to actually trying to fight racism.


I have to go to bed, but try looking up recent information about housing, income, education, job opportunities.

That's really vague. Don't get lazy on me! :D

If this issue is really important to you, do yourself a favor and try to find some real, concrete evidence for actual institutional racism in America today. I think if you're honest, you'll have a very difficult time finding a lot of(or any) evidence to support your argument.
1 Corinthians 1:9
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JediMasterAaron
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Re: Making political statements in sports

Postby JediMasterAaron » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:19 pm

RickD wrote:
JediMasterAaron wrote:
RickD wrote:Philip,

The issue is institutional racism (IR) in America, currently.

We'd all agree that there was institutional racism in America. Segregation/Jim Crow laws are an example of institutional racism.

When people cry "Institutional Racism", I've yet to see anyone give any examples that exist in the US today. I'm not saying IR doesn't exist, btw. I am open to the possibility that it still may exist. That's why it's so important to bring IR to light, so something can be done about it.

Racism is pure evil. But crying institutional racism without citing examples, is counterproductive to actually trying to fight racism.


I have to go to bed, but try looking up recent information about housing, income, education, job opportunities.

That's really vague. Don't get lazy on me! :D

If this issue is really important to you, do yourself a favor and try to find some real, concrete evidence for actual institutional racism in America today. I think if you're honest, you'll have a very difficult time finding a lot of(or any) evidence to support your argument.


Ok, I will :mrgreen:

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Re: Making political statements in sports

Postby RickD » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:24 pm

JediMasterAaron wrote:
RickD wrote:
JediMasterAaron wrote:
RickD wrote:
jedimasteraaron wrote:
...that I haven't got a solid answer to yet. What's the proper way for black people to protest?



Since you missed it the first time, in my post here, this is my suggestion, as an answer to your question. Athletes are public figures. News stations want people to watch. Sounds like a win-win:
RickD wrote:
Why can't athletes ask CNN or MSNBC or foxnews for an interview?


They could, but I doubt it would have the same effect. It would get covered for a few days before being rotated out of the news cycle.

Not if it were a valid point that they're protesting. Did Rosa Parks refusal to sit in the back of the bus, get rotated out of the news and forgotten? No. Why? Because racial segregation was an evil that was part of the institutional racism in the govt.

See how that works?


Yes. It doesn't guarantee that people who disagree would listen though, and I think it's important that the opposing side in some way feels a desire to help a cause.

Again, look at past evidence, actual evidence of institutional racism in America. Slavery, segregation, are a couple of examples. What happened in those actual instances of institutional racism?

I believe that most people, whether conservative or liberal, hate racism. If these athletes who are trying to protest racism, have proof of actual institutional racism, it will not be swept under the rug.

But to reiterate, if it's just an overpaid athlete shouting "Institutional Racism", without any proof, then he won't be taken seriously by most Americans. Just look at Kaepernick, who was ranting about racist cops while wearing socks with cops as pigs. That's really not a very good way to try to make a point.
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9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


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Re: Making political statements in sports

Postby Philip » Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:34 pm

Rick, I may have misunderstood you were questioning institutional racism in U.S. law - and today? I'd say our laws are pretty colorblind. Obviously, not so in the past. But, again, people obviously only obsessed with racism of those they racially self identify with, while ignoring it everywhere else, or within or when dished out by their own race: Phonies and hypocrites! And so, in their very selective outrage, they often come very close to - or blatantly - act as if the problem is mostly or only with the majority race, or the race with the most economic and political power. And THAT, in and of itself, is a form of racism!

Or people who want to pin the sins of the past or of the long dead, to people living today that had nothing to do with it - not to mention the people of today weren't the ones those sins were directed at. You don't inherit guilt ir sin - that's the thinking of the brain dead - or those with some agenda.

Truthfully, I get really upset with people trying to tally up which racial group has the most sin or negative baggage! So then they start rattling oof a very selective list. Almost as much, I hate hearing the same stuff from or about the far left and the far right, or evil politicians of whatever party. There is a reason why God equally noted evil across mankind - often amongst those of his own chosen people. Mankind has a sin problem, and they are all about equally good at its techniques!

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Re: RRe: Making political statements in sports

Postby PaulSacramento » Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:36 am

JediMasterAaron wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
JediMasterAaron wrote:Both of you miss the point by a country mile. The only thing I agree with is that we need to talk, so lets talk. Friends, the protest has never been about the flag, anthem, military or whatever Fox news has been spewing out. It's about the unfair treatment of African-Americans by racist police officers, standing up to police brutality, and unjust killings of unarmed black men. Systemic racism, not blatant racism. Well, both really. No one should have a problem with that, so please stop with this whole "they're disrespecting the anthem, etc" when that's not even the problem. If you don't care enough to learn about the real issue then that's your choice, but it comes across as real ignorant and insensitive, which is the last thing I would expect from my fellow Christians. Being African American myself, this is important to me. I'll link a video that basically sums up my point. It will have some language. From there we can hopefully come to some understanding.

You don't see how rich, privileged BLACK athletes protesting SYSTEMATIC racism is self-defeating?
More blacks are killed by blacks than any other race.
More whites are killed by whites than any other race.
More whites are killed by cops than blacks.
And protesting the anthem of a PEOPLE, the people that have given you the ability to make millions playing a game, is just plain stupid.


You're right, I did use the wrong word. I meant institutional, my fault :mrgreen: . Now, I figured it was only a matter of time before you brought up the same responses I've seen a million times. I fail to see why how much money they make somehow makes them less qualified to speak on an issue or that they should be apathetic to certain issues. Or the typical response that they should shut up and do their job. I don't think you watched the video, or read my response, so I'll repeat it. The protest has nothing, absolutely NOTHING to do with the actual anthem, it's meaning, the lyrics, the flag, or however you want to spin it. I'll also reiterate I admit, I used the wrong word, I meant institutional racism. As for the crime, that's a product of what happens when the government cuts funding for after school programs. Idle time right? No one is ignoring the problem of black on black crime. We've been working on it, those rich, privileged, black athletes do a lot for their communities. Unfortunately, change doesn't happen overnight. The cop killings? We aren't advocating for criminals, it's the unarmed killings, where cops get off free and the police department doesn't even admit if they messed up or issue an apology.

You don't seem to grasp that the protest BECAME about the anthem,period.
Spoiled rich black athletes complaining about racism is just plain stupid, period.
Again, the ACTUAL crime stats don't bare out your INTERPRETATION of them.
As for cops killing unarmed black men, they also kill unarmed white men.
The fact that more unarmed black people are killed by cops than unarmed white people is related to make black people ( armed or otherwise) commiting crimes and also the greater propensity of black people to resist arrest.

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Re: Making political statements in sports

Postby PaulSacramento » Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:51 am

Look, is an individual is being discriminated against because of race NOW, then yes something MUST be done, period.
Case by case.
If people want special privileges because of what happened to their grandfather or that a country was racist 50 years ago, I don't care.
I can tell you some horror stories as to how Portuguese immigrants were treated in the 60's and 70's but that is NOT relevant NOW, so it doesn't matter NOW.

Yes, there WAS systemic AND systematic racism in the US in the past but that is NOT the case now EVEN THOUGH you still do have cases of INDIVIDUAL racism.

You have had a black president for Christ's sake and you have black professionals making millions and billions.
You don't see how that is evidence that "institutionalized" racism isn't a factor?
You don't see that society looking at black athletes and actors and singers as role models and such is also evidence that "institutionalized racism" isn't a factor?
Again, individual racism, yes but the majority of a country supporting black athletes and celebrities and politicians is evidence that "systemic" or "institutionalized" racism is not a factor.

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Re: Making political statements in sports

Postby JediMasterAaron » Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:53 am

RickD wrote:
JediMasterAaron wrote:
RickD wrote:
JediMasterAaron wrote:
RickD wrote:

Since you missed it the first time, in my post here, this is my suggestion, as an answer to your question. Athletes are public figures. News stations want people to watch. Sounds like a win-win:


They could, but I doubt it would have the same effect. It would get covered for a few days before being rotated out of the news cycle.

Not if it were a valid point that they're protesting. Did Rosa Parks refusal to sit in the back of the bus, get rotated out of the news and forgotten? No. Why? Because racial segregation was an evil that was part of the institutional racism in the govt.

See how that works?


Yes. It doesn't guarantee that people who disagree would listen though, and I think it's important that the opposing side in some way feels a desire to help a cause.

Again, look at past evidence, actual evidence of institutional racism in America. Slavery, segregation, are a couple of examples. What happened in those actual instances of institutional racism?

I believe that most people, whether conservative or liberal, hate racism. If these athletes who are trying to protest racism, have proof of actual institutional racism, it will not be swept under the rug.

But to reiterate, if it's just an overpaid athlete shouting "Institutional Racism", without any proof, then he won't be taken seriously by most Americans. Just look at Kaepernick, who was ranting about racist cops while wearing socks with cops as pigs. That's really not a very good way to try to make a point.


I gotcha, Rick. I'm picking up what you're putting down.

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Re: Making political statements in sports

Postby JediMasterAaron » Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:21 am

PaulSacramento wrote:Look, is an individual is being discriminated against because of race NOW, then yes something MUST be done, period.
Case by case.
If people want special privileges because of what happened to their grandfather or that a country was racist 50 years ago, I don't care.
I can tell you some horror stories as to how Portuguese immigrants were treated in the 60's and 70's but that is NOT relevant NOW, so it doesn't matter NOW.

Yes, there WAS systemic AND systematic racism in the US in the past but that is NOT the case now EVEN THOUGH you still do have cases of INDIVIDUAL racism.

You have had a black president for Christ's sake and you have black professionals making millions and billions.
You don't see how that is evidence that "institutionalized" racism isn't a factor?
You don't see that society looking at black athletes and actors and singers as role models and such is also evidence that "institutionalized racism" isn't a factor?
Again, individual racism, yes but the majority of a country supporting black athletes and celebrities and politicians is evidence that "systemic" or "institutionalized" racism is not a factor.


No one is asking for special treatment, never have been. It's not the surface stuff either, obviously we've become a better country, the whole point is to bring awareness that there is some lingering racism in our society, undercover racism, not as blatant as 50+ years ago. No one is blaming all white people for the problems in the AA community, at least I'm not, but there are still some past wounds that need to heal. Could the NFL players have handled this better? Probably, but both sides refusing to listen to each other isn't going to help anybody.

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Re: Making political statements in sports

Postby RickD » Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:32 am

jedimasteraaron wrote:
...Probably, but both sides refusing to listen to each other isn't going to help anybody.


Both sides?

Who exactly is on each side?
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