Well, what about offensive historical public monuments?

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melanie
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Re: Well, what about offensive historical public monuments?

Post by melanie »

Philip wrote:All of the sudden clamor over various people suddenly outraged over old monuments and historical things - ready to destroy them or have them removed - has gotten me to thinking: Where does that end - to what degree do we do so?

First thing is, they are everywhere. There are monuments on the grounds of SC's statehouse honoring a few people from history that I find despicable racists - and so I don't think they are appropriate, find them offensive - particularly those whose public appeal was based upon such terrible views and statements. But where does such wholesale removals take us - and how far do we go? And, no doubt, whenever some agenda-laden group (especially over race or politics) decides some symbol from the past must go, it stirs up anger in those that find their cultural and personal meanings in their racial self-identification (whatever it might be). So, as if we don't have enough hatred and problems, people want to create immediate controversies that the media can help feed - as if it's a crisis. Really dangerous road to go down.

And how far do we take the removal of historical symbols. Do we bulldoze the houses of Jefferson and Washington - both slaveowners of hundreds of people? What about the American Indian museum - countless massacres of innocents by some tribes - and most of them carried out against other tribes - took slaves, too! Take away the American flag - some pretty terrible actions were done under that flag in the distant past. How about in other countries - how about destroying the tourist attractions of ancient Aztec and other warrior societies - where they not only took slaves, but also sacrificed children and virgins to pagan gods? Egypt, same deal? Europe - destroy all of those ancient slaveholding Greek and Roman sites - like the Coliseum - untold barbarity forced upon slaves.

I'll end with the Lincoln Memorial - perhaps we should bulldoze our cherished memorial to "St. Lincoln" - due to his comments upon blacks and slaves, made during the famous Lincoln-Douglas debates (just two years before he was elected president):

"I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."

So, based upon the above, should not the Lincoln Memorial be razed as well???!!! See, it's a slippery slope with no end, even though clearly there are some monuments to people that were really bad human beings (I don't include Lincoln so much in that - as he was a man of his time, and I think his racial views slowly moderated, his actions mostly helpful. In fact, he received famous black abolitionist Frederick Douglas in the White House in 1863, and subsequently invited him back in 1864).

There is a strong, logical, measured argument against the removal of confederate statues. Somewhat similar to the ongoing debate in Australia over Australia Day, our indigenous see it as a celebration of their genocide and forced removal from their land and many support them, but many Australians think that whilst our history has undeniable wrongs it is a part of our history and the celebration is about moving forward and just a day when all Aussies can celebrate our nation.
Whilst I have an opinion on the matter (change the date), I see both sides.
Over the last few days I've heard and read many thoughts surrounding the issue of confederate statues and I'm divided, I can see both sides.
But what happened in Charlottesville wasn't reallly about a statue. Don't get me wrong there are very valid historical reasons to keep it there and had the protest been centered around the preservation of history it would have been a different matter but klan members with hoods and torches (interesting they chose evening, with glowing torches given the US history of lynchings), with nazis proudly displaying swatika symbolism marched through a neighbourhood.
In 2017 hooded Klan members took to the streets.
And they were met by a resistance; counter protesters and so they should be!
The media may play it out as 'sides' but when the kkk take to the streets its not a political clash of the alt right and left its citizens that won't tolerate that in their neighbourhood.
In the face of such blatant fascism and racism, it's the flavour of the day to point the finger at ANTIFA and the BLM movement and in fairness some of their ideology is extreme and I'm not a fan of extremists but neither are responsible for a death toll. In fact no one has died at their hands so it's rather fictitious and and inflammatory to compare neo nazis, white supremacists and the kkk who have an ugly history of murder and violence to such groups. I'm not suggesting that ANTIFA are a voice of reason but this is not a question of 'sides'!
When the kkk with hoods and torches march in the streets every group, citizen and voice of reason should stand against it. Not for political reasons but in the spirit of
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
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Re: Well, what about offensive historical public monuments?

Post by edwardmurphy »

PaulSacramento wrote:I don't know much about the American Civil war, besides what is taught in school, so I searched about Lee and...

Seems far more complex then simply saying he was for slavery.
I'm sure that plenty of people involved in the perpetuation of horrible injustice had misgivings about it. Does that absolve them of guilt or responsibility? Whether he endorsed slavery or not, Lee was one of the central figures in the fight to preserve it. That's black and white.
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Re: Well, what about offensive historical public monuments?

Post by RickD »

The area in which I live, is largely conservative. So, most radio talk shows are of the conservative nature. I constantly hear conservatives on these shows, complain about leftists and liberals who want the statues that honor confederates, removed.

Am I the only conservative that thinks that traitors, and those fighting for the cause of slavery, should not have a statue honoring them, and what they did?

Museums are the proper place to display the history of slavery in our country. Not monuments honoring this atrocity. Would Germany display a statue of Heinrich Himmler, honoring him?
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Re: Well, what about offensive historical public monuments?

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You know Rick and I don't want to be the bearer of bad news but I think that thought out argument is not really very conservative at all.
A closet leftard?
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Re: Well, what about offensive historical public monuments?

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Just remember, people are losing their minds over hunks of rock.
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Re: Well, what about offensive historical public monuments?

Post by edwardmurphy »

Hortator wrote:Just remember, people are losing their minds over hunks of rock.
You're too intelligent to honestly believe that.
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Re: Well, what about offensive historical public monuments?

Post by RickD »

melanie wrote:You know Rick and I don't want to be the bearer of bad news but I think that thought out argument is not really very conservative at all.
A closet leftard?
Mel,

Why is it ok only for the left to hate confederate honoring statues?

It shouldn't even be a right vs left issue.

It should be a right vs wrong issue.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




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Re: Well, what about offensive historical public monuments?

Post by Hortator »

Get your popcorn ready folks, the mental gymnastics is about to begin.

http://mynorthwest.com/722573/seattle-m ... e-statues/

:popcorn:
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Re: Well, what about offensive historical public monuments?

Post by Philip »

Many people on all sides of the aisle absolutely hate those on the other sides. Sensible decisions can be voted on about these symbols. But make no mistake about it, there are people on both sides of the aisle ratcheting up the issue over symbols of the past, to demonize whatever people, trying to make an urgent crisis where there shouldn't be one.

I for one don't think hate or racial-purity type groups should be allowed to march down streets made free by people dying to stop such hate. Almost every group and person I've ever seen that were foaming at the mouth over some other racial group, or that are making gross, strawmen statements and applying it to an entire racial group, are typically just a racists as those they assert are. So far, I've never come across a demographic category without racists and haters in it - they're everywhere.

Martin Luther King won a whole lot of white and establishment hearts by his non-violent tactics, and by reaching out to those of all racial identities who would join him in his moral crusade. It WORKED - he radically impacted American in many great ways. But those out to fight whatever groups, those willing to engage in violence in the streets - they're as big a problem, as they aspire to throw gas on the fire of hatred and violence. So, standing up to a Klan march - do it MLK's way. Because when you do it the way of the activists with seething hatred of their own - you'll never change hearts, you'll only harden them.
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Re: Well, what about offensive historical public monuments?

Post by edwardmurphy »

Hortator wrote:Get your popcorn ready folks, the mental gymnastics is about to begin.

http://mynorthwest.com/722573/seattle-m ... e-statues/
I don't see why there'd be any mental gymnastics. The Lenin statue is totally different from the Confederate statues.

The Lenin statue was rescued from a pile of scrap metal (apparently it's hollow and there was a homeless guy living inside it) and brought to the US from Czechoslovakia by a guy looking for a way to attract attention to his restaurant. That guy died in a car wreck, but Lenin ended up getting placed in some neighborhood where it serves the same function as a giant ball of twine or a house shaped like a shoe. There's nothing there about commemorating Lenin or honoring communism. It's a conversation piece. A roadside attraction. It could even be seen as a war trophy from our victory over Soviet communism. And if I'm remembering right it's also privately owned and located on private property. And it's for sale, so if its presence is offensive then Rush Limbaugh is welcome to buy it and use it as a urinal.

The Confederate statues, by comparison, lionize the leaders of an armed rebellion aimed at destroying our country in order to preserve slavery. And they're mostly on public land and paid for by tax dollars.

See the subtle difference?
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Re: Well, what about offensive historical public monuments?

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:toppoints:
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Re: Well, what about offensive historical public monuments?

Post by RickD »

Not only statues, but U.S. army bases named after confederate soldiers.
https://www.google.com/amp/amp.timeinc. ... source=dam
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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Re: Well, what about offensive historical public monuments?

Post by edwardmurphy »

Hortator wrote::toppoints:
You're too generous. That was the equivalent of walking and chewing gum. The situations are completely different.
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Re: Well, what about offensive historical public monuments?

Post by abelcainsbrother »

This issue is destroying what is left of the Democratic Party.It is not hurting Trump politically but the left and these leftist groups have been protesting and have been violent for along time.It just did not start.Have you all forgot about these groups going to Trump rallies during the election stirring up trouble causing some to be cancelled,the riots in the streets,smashing buildings and starting fires,the anti-Trump violent play,the bloody Trump head,dead cops shot dead in Texas,a shot Republican Congressman that could have been even worse,plus openly calling for the assassination of Donald Trump? The left has been using violence and has been stirring it up.The left has been doing this stuff for awhile now,they are totally unhinged since Donald Trump won and it is only hurting the Democrats politically.The Democrats have already lost the midterm elections in 18 and Trump is on his way for re-election. So I say keep it up Democrats because you're only making it easier for Trump politically and Donald Trump knows it.All of these things will be apart of election season when Democrats are up for re-election.The majority of Americans are against the removal of these historical monuments and yet the left is falling right into the trap.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.
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Re: Well, what about offensive historical public monuments?

Post by Hortator »

abelcainsbrother wrote:This issue is destroying what is left of the Democratic Party.
You cannot destroy a force of nature.

A couple of parables come to mind, The Scorpion and the Turtle, and The Farmer and the Viper

http://changelog.ca/topic/The%20Scorpio ... e%20Turtle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Farmer_and_the_Viper

Once you come to expect very little except ill from these people, you will calm down and just accept them as a force of nature. True, if there was a wildfire or a flood, I'd turn around and walk away, but do I get mad at the volcano for blowing? Do I raise a fist of anger at meteorite colliding with Earth? No, that's just silly.
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