Roots of Progressive Liberal ie Marxist thought

Discussions about politics and goings on around the world. (Please keep discussions civil!)
User avatar
abelcainsbrother
Ultimate Member
Posts: 4199
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:31 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Gap Theory

Re: Roots of Progressive Liberal ie Marxist thought

Postby abelcainsbrother » Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:22 pm

neo-x wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
neo-x wrote:Politics and faith should not mix


This kind of thinking has caused a decline of morality in America, I must say,where christians tolerate and accept evil things going on in our country that they should not.It shows how sick the church has become worthless and uneffective at taking a stand against evil and the church is partly responsible for the bloodshed in America.We now have a chance to change things for the better in America,though thanks to Donald Trump but it remains to be seen if we will. Now where you live you may be in a minority situation to where you can't effect much but the majority of Americans claim to be Christian and yet the moral decline in America has raged on with the church being dead.As Christians in America we can vote for morality and make an impact politically but we have'nt.

Donald Trump needs prayer and calls for a prayer meeting in the White House yesterday.
https://youtu.be/fQdIcWd45k4


Morality is neither decided by votes, nor its shoved down people's throats. Politics and faith must never mix. Even as a minority this is clearer to me because someone else's morality is being forced on me. I'd better have my own morality than a state driven one.


I'm not implying we force morality or anything like that.I'm not advocating for a Christian theocracy in America but we have parties in America that are for certian things and we can vote people in office or out of office who are pushing things that are immoral.For instance when Roe vs Wade was passed the people in the party responible for it could have been voted out of office but were'nt. It almost sounds like you're saying that homosexuals,transgenders,etc can stand up and push and fight politically to get their way but Christians cannot do the same thing and are not allowed to participate in politics.This is the kind of thinking that has hurt America.Our freedoms we have in America come from God not government and so you cannot remove God from politics and keep freedom.Freedom must be defended and protected or the government takes our freedom away. Donald Trump says it like this "We do not worship government,we worship God."
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 18251
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kamino

Re: Roots of Progressive Liberal ie Marxist thought

Postby RickD » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:31 am

neo-x wrote:Politics and faith should not mix

So, your faith has no bearing on your political views?

As a Christian, I assume that you believe it's wrong to kill another human without just cause. And that belief has no bearing on your political views?
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

User avatar
neo-x
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3299
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:13 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Contact:

Re: Roots of Progressive Liberal ie Marxist thought

Postby neo-x » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:57 am

RickD wrote:
neo-x wrote:Politics and faith should not mix

So, your faith has no bearing on your political views?

As a Christian, I assume that you believe it's wrong to kill another human without just cause. And that belief has no bearing on your political views?

None at all. Because I can have that believe regardless of being a Christian. A Hindu and Muslim believes the same. There is a difference between ethical, moral and legal things. Furthermore, societies don't form and function based on the moral good but the common good.

So faith and politics should never mix.
People treat facts as relevant more when the facts tend to support their opinions. When the facts are against their opinions, they don't necessarily deny the facts, but they say the facts are less relevant or insignificant. This is ofcourse because believing things that make you feel comfortable, takes a priority. And I think that should not be the case if one is after truth.

http://johnadavid.wordpress.com

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 7933
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Roots of Progressive Liberal ie Marxist thought

Postby PaulSacramento » Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:42 am

neo-x wrote:
RickD wrote:
neo-x wrote:Politics and faith should not mix

So, your faith has no bearing on your political views?

As a Christian, I assume that you believe it's wrong to kill another human without just cause. And that belief has no bearing on your political views?

None at all. Because I can have that believe regardless of being a Christian. A Hindu and Muslim believes the same. There is a difference between ethical, moral and legal things. Furthermore, societies don't form and function based on the moral good but the common good.

So faith and politics should never mix.

I don't think that you can separate the two WHEN faith is what drives your morals.

I don't think that it is 100% true that societies form and function based on common good.
I think you need both.
The moral good is what drives the understanding of the common good.
Or else you would have a society with morals based on the whims of the majority, which is what we have now of course and you see all the issues that brings us.

I don't know if it is a 50-50 thing.

A society that functions only on the basis of the common good is one ripe for dictatorship and the "morals of the majority" which means right and wrong is based on the whims of others, based on what those in power ( either by number or by influence) want.

User avatar
neo-x
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3299
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:13 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Contact:

Re: Roots of Progressive Liberal ie Marxist thought

Postby neo-x » Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:25 am

That is what I am saying, it can but it shouldn't. Politics like faith are complete bundles.
People treat facts as relevant more when the facts tend to support their opinions. When the facts are against their opinions, they don't necessarily deny the facts, but they say the facts are less relevant or insignificant. This is ofcourse because believing things that make you feel comfortable, takes a priority. And I think that should not be the case if one is after truth.

http://johnadavid.wordpress.com

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 18251
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kamino

Re: Roots of Progressive Liberal ie Marxist thought

Postby RickD » Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:07 am

neo-x wrote:
RickD wrote:
neo-x wrote:Politics and faith should not mix

So, your faith has no bearing on your political views?

As a Christian, I assume that you believe it's wrong to kill another human without just cause. And that belief has no bearing on your political views?

None at all. Because I can have that believe regardless of being a Christian. A Hindu and Muslim believes the same. There is a difference between ethical, moral and legal things. Furthermore, societies don't form and function based on the moral good but the common good.

So faith and politics should never mix.

So, Christians and others, whose faith lead them to the conviction that African slaves were indeed human with the God given right to no be enslaved, should not have fought for the abolition of slavery? And Christians and others, whose faith gives them the conviction that the unborn have the God given right to life, should not fight for the abolition of abortion for convenience?

And FYI, Hindus and Muslims are people of faith, who also don't live in a vacuum. And people of faith, hopefully, are driven to do good by the convictions of their faith.

Neo, explain to me how the common good can even exist, without a moral good.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

User avatar
Philip
Board Moderator
Posts: 5707
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:45 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Betwixt the Sea and the Mountains

Re: Roots of Progressive Liberal ie Marxist thought

Postby Philip » Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:44 am

Here's the thing - politics is how we live out our beliefs, both individually and collectively, through our personal choices over whatever issues. And our beliefs drive our preferences in political matters. But we often don't get political OPTIONS that match up with our belief-driven views upon how political policies should play out. My spiritual beliefs say that abortion on demand is a terrible thing. I can vote for candidates that share that view. And of course, that's not the only criteria I must consider. But it's a matter of numbers - how many people of whatever beliefs will vote for whatever candidates. And then there are the courts and appointed officials - I've got NO vote impacting their decisions. Parent have beliefs, often based upon their spiritual understandings. And so they run their households and raise their children accordingly. Meaning, their home policies ARE their household's politics. And the impact of political force is always a result of numbers of whatever people holding whatever beliefs, voting or siding with those seeking whatever office of power.

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 7933
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Roots of Progressive Liberal ie Marxist thought

Postby PaulSacramento » Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:01 am

Ben Shapiro ones said that communism ( everything shared in common) works, BUT only in the family structure.
We have shared bank accounts, we share our goods and wealth with out kids and family and we take care of those family members that can't take care of themselves.
It doesn't work when we don't know or care that much about the "other guy".
He was right.

I give freely to the charities and the people I CHOOSE.
I take care of my family and friends, those I CHOOSE to hare what I have with.
I DON'T do it because I have to, but because I choose to.

I communism, you do it because you have to, you do it to people regardless of how you feel about them, what they do and if they deserve it and that builds resentment and even hate.

User avatar
neo-x
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3299
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:13 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Contact:

Re: Roots of Progressive Liberal ie Marxist thought

Postby neo-x » Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:53 am

RickD wrote:
neo-x wrote:
RickD wrote:
neo-x wrote:Politics and faith should not mix

So, your faith has no bearing on your political views?

As a Christian, I assume that you believe it's wrong to kill another human without just cause. And that belief has no bearing on your political views?

None at all. Because I can have that believe regardless of being a Christian. A Hindu and Muslim believes the same. There is a difference between ethical, moral and legal things. Furthermore, societies don't form and function based on the moral good but the common good.

So faith and politics should never mix.

So, Christians and others, whose faith lead them to the conviction that African slaves were indeed human with the God given right to no be enslaved, should not have fought for the abolition of slavery? And Christians and others, whose faith gives them the conviction that the unborn have the God given right to life, should not fight for the abolition of abortion for convenience?


Slavery couldn't have had survived anyway because it doesn't adhere to the common good idea of a modern society. And societies don't form and grow on morals they do on the basis of common good. My contention is that the drawback of mixing politics/power with faith is far more dangerous than the good it does, which is really not a lot.

Hindus, believe that a widow should be burnt alive with her husband, they actually had that practice in India because of their faith. It was overturned later in the 70's and afterward but the reason it got there in the first place was that people in power believed that it was a moral thing to do.

Sharia law states that the chopping off of a thief's hand is just and moral action, the punishment is fitting the crime. It is nice that there is no Sharia law like this in effect in my country.

In the slave trade, many slave traders who really believed that the Bible had no opposition to slavery, in fact, cited it as a proof that they indeed could have slaves. The reason you had slavery, for the most part, was a belief on colonizing in the name of God, king or queen. And the abolitionists were certainly driven by faith but equally from free Labor as well.

So beliefs on interpretations can mean a lot to a lot of people. It's dangerous to mix these things.

Common good is just more or less common sense, something that should work for everyone's collective good. Societies that don't form or work that way show lack of growth as you can mostly see in the third world, corrupt countries and govts etc.
People treat facts as relevant more when the facts tend to support their opinions. When the facts are against their opinions, they don't necessarily deny the facts, but they say the facts are less relevant or insignificant. This is ofcourse because believing things that make you feel comfortable, takes a priority. And I think that should not be the case if one is after truth.

http://johnadavid.wordpress.com

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 7933
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Roots of Progressive Liberal ie Marxist thought

Postby PaulSacramento » Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:18 am

Common good is just more or less common sense, something that should work for everyone's collective good. Societies that don't form or work that way show lack of growth as you can mostly see in the third world, corrupt countries and govt
s etc.

That is a naive view my friend, we saw the common good in the USSR and China in the 10th century.

User avatar
neo-x
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3299
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:13 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Contact:

Re: Roots of Progressive Liberal ie Marxist thought

Postby neo-x » Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:19 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Common good is just more or less common sense, something that should work for everyone's collective good. Societies that don't form or work that way show lack of growth as you can mostly see in the third world, corrupt countries and govt
s etc.

That is a naive view my friend, we saw the common good in the USSR and China in the 10th century.


10th century?

Anyway, whatever works best for you and your fellowmen is a strong growth factor. Societies that collapse internally often are devoid of such good, USSR, NK, China are no exceptions here.
People treat facts as relevant more when the facts tend to support their opinions. When the facts are against their opinions, they don't necessarily deny the facts, but they say the facts are less relevant or insignificant. This is ofcourse because believing things that make you feel comfortable, takes a priority. And I think that should not be the case if one is after truth.

http://johnadavid.wordpress.com

User avatar
abelcainsbrother
Ultimate Member
Posts: 4199
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:31 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Gap Theory

Re: Roots of Progressive Liberal ie Marxist thought

Postby abelcainsbrother » Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:51 pm

neo-x wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Common good is just more or less common sense, something that should work for everyone's collective good. Societies that don't form or work that way show lack of growth as you can mostly see in the third world, corrupt countries and govt
s etc.

That is a naive view my friend, we saw the common good in the USSR and China in the 10th century.


10th century?

Anyway, whatever works best for you and your fellowmen is a strong growth factor. Societies that collapse internally often are devoid of such good, USSR, NK, China are no exceptions here.


I really think it is important for you to realize that nobody is calling for Christianity to be enforced by our government,nobody is calling for people to be forced to be a Christian,we do not desire witch trials,you cannot force people to do things God's way or be a Christian,etc.Christian theocracies do not work properly because Christianity is based on freedom however Christians have a responsibility to take a stand against evil in our society and we have'nt.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

User avatar
neo-x
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3299
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:13 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Contact:

Re: Roots of Progressive Liberal ie Marxist thought

Postby neo-x » Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:24 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote:
neo-x wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Common good is just more or less common sense, something that should work for everyone's collective good. Societies that don't form or work that way show lack of growth as you can mostly see in the third world, corrupt countries and govt
s etc.

That is a naive view my friend, we saw the common good in the USSR and China in the 10th century.


10th century?

Anyway, whatever works best for you and your fellowmen is a strong growth factor. Societies that collapse internally often are devoid of such good, USSR, NK, China are no exceptions here.


I really think it is important for you to realize that nobody is calling for Christianity to be enforced by our government,nobody is calling for people to be forced to be a Christian,we do not desire witch trials,you cannot force people to do things God's way or be a Christian,etc.Christian theocracies do not work properly because Christianity is based on freedom however Christians have a responsibility to take a stand against evil in our society and we have'nt.


Ok, understood. I am just saying that history shows us that mixing of faith and politics is usually not a very good thing.
Just my two cents.
People treat facts as relevant more when the facts tend to support their opinions. When the facts are against their opinions, they don't necessarily deny the facts, but they say the facts are less relevant or insignificant. This is ofcourse because believing things that make you feel comfortable, takes a priority. And I think that should not be the case if one is after truth.

http://johnadavid.wordpress.com

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 7933
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Roots of Progressive Liberal ie Marxist thought

Postby PaulSacramento » Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:38 am

neo-x wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Common good is just more or less common sense, something that should work for everyone's collective good. Societies that don't form or work that way show lack of growth as you can mostly see in the third world, corrupt countries and govt
s etc.

That is a naive view my friend, we saw the common good in the USSR and China in the 10th century.


10th century?

Anyway, whatever works best for you and your fellowmen is a strong growth factor. Societies that collapse internally often are devoid of such good, USSR, NK, China are no exceptions here.

LOL, typo, 20th of course.

User avatar
edwardmurphy
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1467
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:45 am
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation

Re: Roots of Progressive Liberal ie Marxist thought

Postby edwardmurphy » Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:19 am

Those were totalitarian governments that paid lip service to the common good. And frankly, they were no worse than the totalitarian governments that they overthrew and replaced.
If you're accustomed to privilege equality may feel like oppression.

Something for us all to consider. (Thanks, Paul)

Individual, silent, personal prayer never has and never could be outlawed in public schools. - FFRF


Return to “Politics and World Events”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests