Do you think LGBT is being forced on us?

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Re: Do you think LGBT is being forced on us?

Postby RickD » Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:50 am

Stu wrote:
RickD wrote:
Stu wrote:
RickD wrote:
Stu wrote:
So you accept gay pastors?

That's irrelevant to the point you made.

Paul said that homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom - was he wrong?

Nope. But if you interpret, "will not inherit the kingdom..." as saying, "will not go to heaven", you're wrong.
http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/2014/12/15/what-does-inherit-the-kingdom-mean-in-1-cor-69-10/
Christians cannot lose salvation because of sinning. If we could, then there'd be nobody in heaven.


Come on man, answer the question - are actively gay pastors acceptable?

Well I can quote you many other sites that disagree with your source: https://www.gotquestions.org/not-inheri ... m-God.html

Also, one can lose salvation. If I was once a Christian and instead decided to become a satanist and serve satan, somehow I don't think that you will be going to heaven. Same thing with someone who was once a Christian but then converts to Islam, they will no longer go to heaven.

Wow Stu, your theology is more of a mess than I thought.


Your non-answer, is all the answer I need.

You're too scared to answer the difficult questions because they require a politically incorrect response (afraid you'll offend Ed :D ). But we all know what the answer is....

You're not very observant, are you? You seriously think, after some of my posts, that I'm afraid to answer a question because I might offend someone?
:pound:
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Re: Do you think LGBT is being forced on us?

Postby Stu » Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:56 am

neo-x wrote:
Stu wrote:
RickD wrote:
Stu wrote:
So you accept gay pastors?

That's irrelevant to the point you made.

Paul said that homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom - was he wrong?

Nope. But if you interpret, "will not inherit the kingdom..." as saying, "will not go to heaven", you're wrong.
http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/2014/12/15/what-does-inherit-the-kingdom-mean-in-1-cor-69-10/
Christians cannot lose salvation because of sinning. If we could, then there'd be nobody in heaven.


Come on man, answer the question - are actively gay pastors acceptable?


Stu, sorry to butt in, however do you think a pastor who habitually lies, is acceptable? Or one that envies, or who is doing a business by running a church? What if a pastor watches porn, is he acceptable?

At the end of the day it is your perspective that is distorted because you keep acts as very important to salvation. If a person who lies or is an envious one or steals or watches porn is a pastor, then he has deeper issues that he needs to deal with - which is between God and him. And then between him and his church.

However, to say that one such person is not a christian, or can't be one is wrong. I know what you'd say, that if such and such a person is unrepentant than he is not a christian and I will still say, this is wrong.

We often commit sins we don't even know about or are aware of if God judged us by our acts, which you are saying he should then every one of us will fall into one of another category of sin, me and you included. But when God looks at us through the grace that we have in Christ then it doesn't matter what sin you have done. You will need spiritual correctness, you should be punished legally if that is what entails from your act, but God can and does forgive you, not because of the degree of screw up you did but on the grace and love of God for us. And if that sounds like something which isn't justice and where one doesn't deserve forgiveness for the sin or crime they have committed, then that is exactly what grace is. You don't deserve it, ever, no one does. It is not justice and isn't suppose to be. The punishment can't match the crime, because the wages of all sin is death, period. There isn't a big one or a small one.

I am saying you need to stop thinking of God as an accountant and more like a father.

LATER EDIT:
And to answer your question: No person should be a pastor if he isn't called to be one.


Habitually? No then they wouldn't be acceptable (not to get off-topic too much, but the Bible says that those who put themselves up as leaders of the faith will be judged to a higher standard). It means you are not being sincere in asking for forgiveness.

So you're saying an openly gay pastor is acceptable?

I do not subscribe to the saved by works doctrine. But James also says that "faith without works is dead", because our faith and relationship with Jesus/Holy Spirit/God will transform us from our old lives into our new lives and our lifestyle and deeds will reflect that.

If we keep on doing the things that we have repented from it will reveal no change in our lives.

There are varying opinions on once saved always saved, I happen to disagree with it.
Only when the blood runs and the shackles restrain, will the sheep then awake. When all is lost.

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Re: Do you think LGBT is being forced on us?

Postby Stu » Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:57 am

RickD wrote:
Stu wrote:
RickD wrote:
Stu wrote:
RickD wrote:That's irrelevant to the point you made.


Nope. But if you interpret, "will not inherit the kingdom..." as saying, "will not go to heaven", you're wrong.
http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/2014/12/15/what-does-inherit-the-kingdom-mean-in-1-cor-69-10/
Christians cannot lose salvation because of sinning. If we could, then there'd be nobody in heaven.


Come on man, answer the question - are actively gay pastors acceptable?

Well I can quote you many other sites that disagree with your source: https://www.gotquestions.org/not-inheri ... m-God.html

Also, one can lose salvation. If I was once a Christian and instead decided to become a satanist and serve satan, somehow I don't think that you will be going to heaven. Same thing with someone who was once a Christian but then converts to Islam, they will no longer go to heaven.

Wow Stu, your theology is more of a mess than I thought.


Your non-answer, is all the answer I need.

You're too scared to answer the difficult questions because they require a politically incorrect response (afraid you'll offend Ed :D ). But we all know what the answer is....

You're not very observant, are you? You seriously think, after some of my posts, that I'm afraid to answer a question because I might offend someone?
:pound:


Well answer the question then.

Is an openly gay pastor acceptable?
Only when the blood runs and the shackles restrain, will the sheep then awake. When all is lost.

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Re: Do you think LGBT is being forced on us?

Postby RickD » Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:11 am

Stu wrote:
RickD wrote:
Stu wrote:
RickD wrote:
Stu wrote:
Come on man, answer the question - are actively gay pastors acceptable?

Well I can quote you many other sites that disagree with your source: https://www.gotquestions.org/not-inheri ... m-God.html

Also, one can lose salvation. If I was once a Christian and instead decided to become a satanist and serve satan, somehow I don't think that you will be going to heaven. Same thing with someone who was once a Christian but then converts to Islam, they will no longer go to heaven.

Wow Stu, your theology is more of a mess than I thought.


Your non-answer, is all the answer I need.

You're too scared to answer the difficult questions because they require a politically incorrect response (afraid you'll offend Ed :D ). But we all know what the answer is....

You're not very observant, are you? You seriously think, after some of my posts, that I'm afraid to answer a question because I might offend someone?
:pound:


Well answer the question then.

Is an openly gay pastor acceptable?

If you're asking if that's acceptable to me, let's just say I wouldn't attend a church with an openly gay pastor. Or a pastor who is known to be a womanizer that cheats on his wife.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


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Re: Do you think LGBT is being forced on us?

Postby edwardmurphy » Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:28 am

Stu wrote:Is an openly gay pastor acceptable?


To who? God? According to the denominations that permit openly gay pastors they clearly are. According to those that don't they're clearly not. The same can be said of drinking alcohol, letting your daughter date outside the faith, having surgery, and probably a host of other issues that I'm not aware of. Christianity is a big tent with diverse occupants. It's also part of a constantly changing society.

Being angry about that makes no sense to me.
If you're accustomed to privilege equality may feel like oppression.

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Re: Do you think LGBT is being forced on us?

Postby neo-x » Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:18 am

Stu wrote:
neo-x wrote:
Stu wrote:
RickD wrote:
Stu wrote:
So you accept gay pastors?

That's irrelevant to the point you made.

Paul said that homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom - was he wrong?

Nope. But if you interpret, "will not inherit the kingdom..." as saying, "will not go to heaven", you're wrong.
http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/2014/12/15/what-does-inherit-the-kingdom-mean-in-1-cor-69-10/
Christians cannot lose salvation because of sinning. If we could, then there'd be nobody in heaven.


Come on man, answer the question - are actively gay pastors acceptable?


Stu, sorry to butt in, however do you think a pastor who habitually lies, is acceptable? Or one that envies, or who is doing a business by running a church? What if a pastor watches porn, is he acceptable?

At the end of the day it is your perspective that is distorted because you keep acts as very important to salvation. If a person who lies or is an envious one or steals or watches porn is a pastor, then he has deeper issues that he needs to deal with - which is between God and him. And then between him and his church.

However, to say that one such person is not a christian, or can't be one is wrong. I know what you'd say, that if such and such a person is unrepentant than he is not a christian and I will still say, this is wrong.

We often commit sins we don't even know about or are aware of if God judged us by our acts, which you are saying he should then every one of us will fall into one of another category of sin, me and you included. But when God looks at us through the grace that we have in Christ then it doesn't matter what sin you have done. You will need spiritual correctness, you should be punished legally if that is what entails from your act, but God can and does forgive you, not because of the degree of screw up you did but on the grace and love of God for us. And if that sounds like something which isn't justice and where one doesn't deserve forgiveness for the sin or crime they have committed, then that is exactly what grace is. You don't deserve it, ever, no one does. It is not justice and isn't suppose to be. The punishment can't match the crime, because the wages of all sin is death, period. There isn't a big one or a small one.

I am saying you need to stop thinking of God as an accountant and more like a father.

LATER EDIT:
And to answer your question: No person should be a pastor if he isn't called to be one.


Habitually? No then they wouldn't be acceptable (not to get off-topic too much, but the Bible says that those who put themselves up as leaders of the faith will be judged to a higher standard). It means you are not being sincere in asking for forgiveness.

So you're saying an openly gay pastor is acceptable?

I do not subscribe to the saved by works doctrine. But James also says that "faith without works is dead", because our faith and relationship with Jesus/Holy Spirit/God will transform us from our old lives into our new lives and our lifestyle and deeds will reflect that.

If we keep on doing the things that we have repented from it will reveal no change in our lives.

There are varying opinions on once saved always saved, I happen to disagree with it.


I think you are not getting my point, I am saying it is irrelevant what sin a pastor is doing, including homosexuality. I am saying no one should be be a pastor if he isn't called to be one.

I have never been a huge fan of OSAS because it creates problems as well when it is taken to extreme conclusions. However, I do lean somewhat to what it says and it quite evident that - since you can't do good works and achieve salvation, you can't out-sin your way out of salvation as well. It just doesn't work that way. It is not based on our actions. I use to struggle with this, quite literally with the same arguments you provided.

I agree with Rick that you can't lose your salvation by sinning. But I do think you can reject it by putting your trust in Christ, even after you have received salvation. For instance, as you said, once could convert to another faith or no faith at all. And I think at the point it is a choice and it is in a way, God's grace that you can even choose to live without him. As in a relationship, one partner doesn't want to be anymore. Like C.S. Lewis once said, "the doors of hell are locked from the inside". Those who don't want to be or live with God can be without him. That is indeed a love like no other. God offers it but we can reject it. Everything works for OSAS as long as we maintain that both persons in the relationship trust each other or in this instance that a person puts his trust in Christ even though he sins and falls many times but because of that trust the relationship still works fine, even because God who is forever faithful is always with us, but the human in that relation can choose to walk out and if that happens, there is nothing to be done, because salvation is gained because of grace of God when we put our trust in Christ. However, if we don't put our trust anymore in Christ then there is nothing that can be done about it. It is love and grace of God that even allows us to have that choice, even in the act of rejection, God is still faithful but can't help us.

What good is salvation if someone doesn't want it? I don't think God wants anymore dragged to him, as that isn't loving, a dictator might do that and we know that is not what our faith teaches.
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Re: Do you think LGBT is being forced on us?

Postby Philip » Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:36 pm

edwardmurphy wrote:
Stu wrote:Is an openly gay pastor acceptable?


To who? God? According to the denominations that permit openly gay pastors they clearly are.


The answer has to do with what one considers an "openly gay pastor." I that means, a person, who well knows God's directives and position concerning sex outside of marriage, and sex with one of the same gender, and yet declares that they believe the opposite of what God says about that in Scripture (that it is an abomination), and they are intentionally seeking out or maintaining a gay sexual relationship - then the answer is NO! Such BEHAVIOR is not acceptable to God. Not to mention, pastors and teachers, per Scripture, are held to a higher standard. Is such a pastor saved? Maybe. But if he or she is, they are living a lifestyle of behavior that God considers deplorable. This is why many denominations are only following whatever traditions of man - if parts of their doctrine contradicts Scripture. From a Christian standpoint - and from God's - He could care less what denominations see as okay, but only what HE deems as okay, or whatever He considers sinful. This is also the problem with the media and much of the secular world - they judge what should be considered as "Christian" by whatever practices those merely CALLING themselves "Christian" are saying or doing. But from a theological point, God, in Scripture, has determined right and wrong.

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Re: Do you think LGBT is being forced on us?

Postby Hortator » Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:43 pm

Philip wrote:
Stu wrote:Is an openly gay pastor acceptable?


The answer has to do with what one considers an "openly gay pastor." I that means, a person, who well knows God's directives and position concerning sex outside of marriage, and sex with one of the same gender, and yet declares that they believe the opposite of what God says about that in Scripture (that it is an abomination), and they are intentionally seeking out or maintaining a gay sexual relationship - then the answer is NO! Such BEHAVIOR is not acceptable to God. Not to mention, pastors and teachers, per Scripture, are held to a higher standard. Is such a pastor saved? Maybe. But if he or she is, they are living a lifestyle of behavior that God considers deplorable. This is why many denominations are only following whatever traditions of man - if parts of their doctrine contradicts Scripture. From a Christian standpoint - and from God's - He could care less what denominations see as okay, but only what HE deems as okay, or whatever He considers sinful. This is also the problem with the media and much of the secular world - they judge what should be considered as "Christian" by whatever practices those merely CALLING themselves "Christian" are saying or doing. But from a theological point, God, in Scripture, has determined right and wrong.


We had another topic just like this, except with an engaged couple who had "shacked up" to use an old colloquial for living together before marriage. They were involved in church activities, but were rejected temporarily until they were wed. After that, it was like nothing ever happened and they were allowed back.

And in a nutshell, that is the way it works. Repent, go forth and sin no more, and you will be welcome back to the church with open arms.

As for actual salvation, the big question, Paul touched on this in his first letter to the Corinthians regarding church leadership:

11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames. ( Corinthians 1 3:11-15 )

So to put it bluntly, the hypothetical gay pastor will be saved, but barely.

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Re: Do you think LGBT is being forced on us?

Postby edwardmurphy » Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:56 pm

Hortator wrote:So to put it bluntly, the hypothetical gay pastor will be saved, but barely.


Openly gay pastors are not hypothetical.
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Re: Do you think LGBT is being forced on us?

Postby Kurieuo » Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:19 pm

Hortator wrote:
Philip wrote:
Stu wrote:Is an openly gay pastor acceptable?


The answer has to do with what one considers an "openly gay pastor." I that means, a person, who well knows God's directives and position concerning sex outside of marriage, and sex with one of the same gender, and yet declares that they believe the opposite of what God says about that in Scripture (that it is an abomination), and they are intentionally seeking out or maintaining a gay sexual relationship - then the answer is NO! Such BEHAVIOR is not acceptable to God. Not to mention, pastors and teachers, per Scripture, are held to a higher standard. Is such a pastor saved? Maybe. But if he or she is, they are living a lifestyle of behavior that God considers deplorable. This is why many denominations are only following whatever traditions of man - if parts of their doctrine contradicts Scripture. From a Christian standpoint - and from God's - He could care less what denominations see as okay, but only what HE deems as okay, or whatever He considers sinful. This is also the problem with the media and much of the secular world - they judge what should be considered as "Christian" by whatever practices those merely CALLING themselves "Christian" are saying or doing. But from a theological point, God, in Scripture, has determined right and wrong.


We had another topic just like this, except with an engaged couple who had "shacked up" to use an old colloquial for living together before marriage. They were involved in church activities, but were rejected temporarily until they were wed. After that, it was like nothing ever happened and they were allowed back.

And in a nutshell, that is the way it works. Repent, go forth and sin no more, and you will be welcome back to the church with open arms.

The irony to that "in a nutshell" is we'd never get back to the church. And, if we somehow stopped sinning and got back to the church, it'd be empty and there'd be noone to welcome us.

    It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. (Galatians 5:1)
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Re: Do you think LGBT is being forced on us?

Postby PaulSacramento » Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:43 am

Being a homosexual is like being any other kind of sinner:
Thief, someone that swears a lot, sexually promiscuous, slanders, anger issues, etc.

We all sin and we all fall short, ALL OF US.

Being a homosexual is as much as much being a sinner as anything else, no more no less.
In the degree's of sin it even isn't in the "Big 10".
Adultery is far worse and no one discuss that !

BUT, being a homosexual and living a homosexual lifestyle are two different things.

One can have the tendency to be a thief or have anger issues or greed or gluttony or to be an adulterer BUT if they do NOT indulge in those things then they have repented and "sinned no more" and those things are juts as hard to NOT DO for people that suffer from those problems as being a homosexual and not engaging in homosexual activity.

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Re: Do you think LGBT is being forced on us?

Postby Philip » Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:22 am

Paul: BUT, being a homosexual and living a homosexual lifestyle are two different things.
[/quote]

Yes they are. But both begin in the mind of an individual, yet with one continually embracing and acting upon it, while asserting that such behavior is perfectly natural and in no way sinful. God created NO one to have homosexual desires. So ALL people who self-identify as homosexual - that thinking all came from within - they certainly weren't made so by God. Least that is the Scriptural understanding. At some point, a Christian who self-identifies as a homosexual will know of God's views upon this and will begin to struggle against it. Such a person will desire to do God's will, even though they may at times slip up in their struggle. Again, with a sin nature, all manner of sinful things may well seem perfectly natural, but that doesn't mean they were created to have such inclinations by God - far from it.

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Re: Do you think LGBT is being forced on us?

Postby PaulSacramento » Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:45 pm

Not sure you understood what I meant.
Being a homosexual is one thing, acting on it is another.
Like a person addicted to sex, and having the desire to cheat, it is one thing to want to have sex and cheat and NOT do it, and quite another to do it.

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Re: Do you think LGBT is being forced on us?

Postby Philip » Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:39 pm

Paul: Not sure you understood what I meant.
Being a homosexual is one thing, acting on it is another.
Like a person addicted to sex, and having the desire to cheat, it is one thing to want to have sex and cheat and NOT do it, and quite another to do it.


Paul, I perfectly understood what you meant. And I agree. My point is that these categorizations about one's sexual positioning is a SELF-identification in the mind of individual persons - however they act out their sexuality, whether or not they act upon it or not and whatever label they identify with (heterosexual/homosexual/bi-sexual, etc.) - because God did not create people with any certain sexual orientation. He created free moral agents that He desires purposes per their assigned gender, and gave them the freedom to decide to follow His wishes upon acting out their sexuality - or not. And He allows the associated consequences. And that is not to deny that their is a sin nature for all manner of evil desires - that seems perfect natural (of course, that IS our nature!) and unavoidable. What can be unavoidable are the temptations. But what IS avoidable is acting upon those temptations - that's a choice - EVERY time. So, society's marketing and branding of people into defined sexual orientations (as if one must act upon whatever sinful manifestation of how they sexually self-identify) or blends of such - that are all just man-made lies. This is why when one reads of the hate and anger certain Christian organizations that try to help those under sinful sexual bondage - often screaming: "You can't change how you were born to live out your sexuality!"

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Re: Do you think LGBT is being forced on us?

Postby PaulSacramento » Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:06 am

Philip wrote:
Paul: Not sure you understood what I meant.
Being a homosexual is one thing, acting on it is another.
Like a person addicted to sex, and having the desire to cheat, it is one thing to want to have sex and cheat and NOT do it, and quite another to do it.


Paul, I perfectly understood what you meant. And I agree. My point is that these categorizations about one's sexual positioning is a SELF-identification in the mind of individual persons - however they act out their sexuality, whether or not they act upon it or not and whatever label they identify with (heterosexual/homosexual/bi-sexual, etc.) - because God did not create people with any certain sexual orientation. He created free moral agents that He desires purposes per their assigned gender, and gave them the freedom to decide to follow His wishes upon acting out their sexuality - or not. And He allows the associated consequences. And that is not to deny that their is a sin nature for all manner of evil desires - that seems perfect natural (of course, that IS our nature!) and unavoidable. What can be unavoidable are the temptations. But what IS avoidable is acting upon those temptations - that's a choice - EVERY time. So, society's marketing and branding of people into defined sexual orientations (as if one must act upon whatever sinful manifestation of how they sexually self-identify) or blends of such - that are all just man-made lies. This is why when one reads of the hate and anger certain Christian organizations that try to help those under sinful sexual bondage - often screaming: "You can't change how you were born to live out your sexuality!"


I don't know if they are as much SELF-identifying as they are "society-identifying", know what I mean?
How many people decide, one day, that they are gay without knowing what that means? and who tells them what that means? Society.
Society labels and then decides if it is acceptable.
Society says that two males having sex is ok BUT only if they are old enough to decide for themselves if they want to.
It doesn't take into account that someone can be conditioned into thinking that it is ok, so how much i=of this is actual consent?


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