A letter to an anti-nationalist pastor

Discussions about politics and goings on around the world. (Please keep discussions civil!)
PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 9224
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada

A letter to an anti-nationalist pastor

Post by PaulSacramento »

Found this letter from a Christian to his Canadian born nationalized pastor:
I was moved to provide some response to this Sunday's sermon on America, patriotism, and nationalism. I'll just go through the line items:

The referenced survey of pastors was based on perceptions of the pastors, of congregants, rather than asking congregants directly about their attitudes. One could draw generalized perceptions regarding any aspect of people's lives: sports, hobbies, money, work, etc. The survey is a questionable gage of the real spiritual situation, in my own opinion.

We honor our veterans on Memorial Day and celebrate the country we were blessed with because we are grateful for the freedom we have to worship - which is not available to most of the world. Veterans have put their very own lives on the line defending it. This is not true of doctors, teachers, etc. But it's a stretch to equate this to idol worship. This is generally only done a few select holidays a year, not every Sunday.

When Paul says he counts his other identities as nothing compared to his belonging to Christ, there's a rhetorical element to what he is saying. It doesn't mean that he no longer has responsibilities to his family or his society, as a father, or a citizen, etc. Are we to argue that all other civic bonds, associations, loyalties should be thrown out as a result of being a Christian - or are they just simply subservient to our Christian ones?

"Love your neighbor as yourself" - who IS your neighbor? Are you certain of just who Jesus defines to be our "neighbor"? If everyone is my neighbor, than no one is my neighbor, in the same way that loyalty to everyone is loyalty to no one.

To say that we have more unity with an Ethiopian christian, than say, a biological/ethnic kinsman who is an unbeliever is certainly true in the spiritual sense. But it stretches credulity when taken to its absolute logical conclusion in an earthly practical sense.

Timothy 5:8 "But if anyone does not provide for his own, and specifically for those of his own house, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever"

You state that nationalism means "thinking you're superior to others". This is a mischaracterization if not a demonization of the term. Nationalism simply means taking care of your own as an extension of Timothy 5:8. Nations are, by the Bible's own portrayal, extended genetic families, just like Israel. He Himself ordained them when he scattered and divided humanity at Babel.

To do away with this concept may suggest that I'm not supposed to care about my child any more than I should care about any random person anywhere on earth. Do you believe that? If not, where is the dividing line?

On "America First": It's a political term to urge our leaders to make trade deals, treaties, etc. that are in the best interest of the citizens of our country. I would expect that Canadian citizens should say "Canada first," Moroccan citizens "Morocco first," etc.

Americans give more to foreign charitable aid efforts worldwide than any other country, yet we have people suffering materially and spiritually in our own country. Would you care for your own suffering child first - or seek out someone else's child? How can we successfully help others if our own foundation has crumbled?

We live in a time where global capitalism is spawning runaway materialism, degeneracy is cultivated by curated mass-media pop culture, and Christian societies are being atomized through mass immigration and urbanization. It's interesting to me that with all of these things the church could be addressing, you attack the natural defense mechanisms against these very things. It is because we are Christians, that we care about addressing these things not just spiritually, but also materially through political action.

Re Franklin Graham and Jerry Falwell Jr: Our spiritual leaders should be speaking out about the direction the country should be going - social issues, etc. One of the reasons we're in the mess we're in is because they have not! Most of them have instead chosen to bite their tongue, or water down their messages, and market their church with graphic art and praise bands, failing in their primary duty to steer our society away from its ongoing decay, by promoting both the sufficiency of the Gospel and Truth.
Justhuman
Established Member
Posts: 243
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:53 am
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Location: East in the Netherlands

Re: A letter to an anti-nationalist pastor

Post by Justhuman »

Aha, yes yes, USA donates more than any other country... Almost every statistic states that Myanmar donates the most (by percentage of citizens). Furthermore it depends on which year one takes, and which survey. Choose the one that suites most.
PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 9224
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: A letter to an anti-nationalist pastor

Post by PaulSacramento »

United States – $31.08 billion.
United Kingdom – $18.70 billion.
Germany – $17.78 billion.
Japan – $9.32 billion.
France – $9.23 billion.
Sweden – $7.09 billion.
Netherlands – $5.81 billion.
Canada – $4.29 billion.
More items...
List of development aid country donors - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_d ... try_donors

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/08/ ... -generous/
PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 9224
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: A letter to an anti-nationalist pastor

Post by PaulSacramento »

Now, per GDP I believe it is Sweden BUT by total amount, it is the US by far.
Justhuman
Established Member
Posts: 243
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:53 am
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Location: East in the Netherlands

Re: A letter to an anti-nationalist pastor

Post by Justhuman »

USA might contribute the largest amount, but... There's more to it than just the total amount. Does that total amount mean that the citizens of the USA are the most generous? Or is that amount coming from a relative small group of citizens?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Giving_Index

http://www.crossborderdirectory.org/whi ... arity.html

https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccar ... d7f58e3395

https://www.theguardian.com/news/databl ... ng-country

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/the ... 7f2caeaca9
PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 9224
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: A letter to an anti-nationalist pastor

Post by PaulSacramento »

Not really relevant within the context of the discussion.
User avatar
RickD
Make me a Sammich Member
Posts: 22063
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen

Re: A letter to an anti-nationalist pastor

Post by RickD »

From the letter, this caught my eye:
Re Franklin Graham and Jerry Falwell Jr: Our spiritual leaders should be speaking out about the direction the country should be going - social issues, etc. One of the reasons we're in the mess we're in is because they have not!
This gets into a difficult area for me. I believe pastors, or preachers, need to stick to preaching the gospel, especially from the pulpit. When social issues become relevant to preaching the gospel, then that's fine in context. But, when "social issues" becomes a synonym for "political beliefs", then that has no place in a pastor's sermon.

"Christianizing" our country, is not the solution to "the mess we're in".
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
Justhuman
Established Member
Posts: 243
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:53 am
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Location: East in the Netherlands

Re: A letter to an anti-nationalist pastor

Post by Justhuman »

PaulSacramento wrote:Not really relevant within the context of the discussion.
Perfectly right, but I hate it when someone states "We do this and that the best in all the world." Hypocrates. Done.
ultimate777
Senior Member
Posts: 736
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:06 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided

Re: A letter to an anti-nationalist pastor

Post by ultimate777 »

RickD wrote:From the letter, this caught my eye:
Re Franklin Graham and Jerry Falwell Jr: Our spiritual leaders should be speaking out about the direction the country should be going - social issues, etc. One of the reasons we're in the mess we're in is because they have not!
This gets into a difficult area for me. I believe pastors, or preachers, need to stick to preaching the gospel, especially from the pulpit. When social issues become relevant to preaching the gospel, then that's fine in context. But, when "social issues" becomes a synonym for "political beliefs", then that has no place in a pastor's sermon.

"Christianizing" our country, is not the solution to "the mess we're in".

It seems a lot of professing Christians are willing to put up with a lot of stuff
in Trump's behavior towards women, etc.etc., etc., they would not
stick up for in others.
PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 9224
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: A letter to an anti-nationalist pastor

Post by PaulSacramento »

ultimate777 wrote:
RickD wrote:From the letter, this caught my eye:
Re Franklin Graham and Jerry Falwell Jr: Our spiritual leaders should be speaking out about the direction the country should be going - social issues, etc. One of the reasons we're in the mess we're in is because they have not!
This gets into a difficult area for me. I believe pastors, or preachers, need to stick to preaching the gospel, especially from the pulpit. When social issues become relevant to preaching the gospel, then that's fine in context. But, when "social issues" becomes a synonym for "political beliefs", then that has no place in a pastor's sermon.

"Christianizing" our country, is not the solution to "the mess we're in".

It seems a lot of professing Christians are willing to put up with a lot of stuff
in Trump's behavior towards women, etc.etc., etc., they would not
stick up for in others.

Well, it seems that we all tend to put up with a lot of crap that ALL politicians do.
The biggest problem we have is that we do believe that the end justifies the means and that is what has gotten us into this crap hole that we are in.
User avatar
RickD
Make me a Sammich Member
Posts: 22063
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen

Re: A letter to an anti-nationalist pastor

Post by RickD »

Warning Nazi comparison ahead!

America allied with Stalin, an evil man, to defeat a greater evil. An evil which was much more of a threat to the US, and the rest of the world.

Not unlike our alliance with Stalin in WW2, many Americans chose a lesser evil(Trump), to defeat a greater evil, (Hillary).
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 9224
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: A letter to an anti-nationalist pastor

Post by PaulSacramento »

RickD wrote:Warning Nazi comparison ahead!

America allied with Stalin, an evil man, to defeat a greater evil. An evil which was much more of a threat to the US, and the rest of the world.

Not unlike our alliance with Stalin in WW2, many Americans chose a lesser evil(Trump), to defeat a greater evil, (Hillary).
It is a sign of our imperfect world and our imperfection, that we believe these to be valid options.
ultimate777
Senior Member
Posts: 736
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:06 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided

Re: A letter to an anti-nationalist pastor

Post by ultimate777 »

RickD wrote:Warning Nazi comparison ahead!

America allied with Stalin, an evil man, to defeat a greater evil. An evil which was much more of a threat to the US, and the rest of the world.

Not unlike our alliance with Stalin in WW2, many Americans chose a lesser evil(Trump), to defeat a greater evil, (Hillary).

Except its the other way around, voting against Hillary was like
people voting for Joe Stalin to defeat the evil Senator Joe McCarthy
in the early '50's would have been.
Don't get me wrong. Joe McCarthy was really bad, no joke.
abelcainsbrother
Ultimate Member
Posts: 5016
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:31 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Gap Theory

Re: A letter to an anti-nationalist pastor

Post by abelcainsbrother »

ultimate777 wrote:
RickD wrote:Warning Nazi comparison ahead!

America allied with Stalin, an evil man, to defeat a greater evil. An evil which was much more of a threat to the US, and the rest of the world.

Not unlike our alliance with Stalin in WW2, many Americans chose a lesser evil(Trump), to defeat a greater evil, (Hillary).

Except its the other way around, voting against Hillary was like
people voting for Joe Stalin to defeat the evil Senator Joe McCarthy
in the early '50's would have been.
Don't get me wrong. Joe McCarthy was really bad, no joke.
You do realize that it is treason to put your hand on the bible,swear to uphold and defend the US Constitution and then abandon it for a globalist agenda in secret,don't ya? And this is not even counting the scandals that surround Hillary.So you're just wrong and you're going to be shocked when God exposes the evil that has been going on and you'll see Donald Trump as a saint compared to it.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.
User avatar
RickD
Make me a Sammich Member
Posts: 22063
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen

Re: A letter to an anti-nationalist pastor

Post by RickD »

ultimate777 wrote:
RickD wrote:Warning Nazi comparison ahead!

America allied with Stalin, an evil man, to defeat a greater evil. An evil which was much more of a threat to the US, and the rest of the world.

Not unlike our alliance with Stalin in WW2, many Americans chose a lesser evil(Trump), to defeat a greater evil, (Hillary).

Except its the other way around, voting against Hillary was like
people voting for Joe Stalin to defeat the evil Senator Joe McCarthy
in the early '50's would have been.
Don't get me wrong. Joe McCarthy was really bad, no joke.
Ultimate,

My response was an answer to what you said here:


It seems a lot of professing Christians are willing to put up with a lot of stuff
in Trump's behavior towards women, etc.etc., etc., they would not
stick up for in others.
Many Christians "put up with" Trump's behavior, because we are voting for the lesser of two evils.

It's not that many of us love everything about Trump. We just believe that the best and most realistic thing we can do to fight against liberalism, is to vote for Trump.

Some people, with different political views than most American Christians, may think that voting for Hillary was voting for the lesser of two evils.

My point is that we do not live in a world where we usually have one perfect choice. We are constantly choosing the lesser of two evils, to fight a greater evil.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
Post Reply