LGBTQ

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edwardmurphy
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Re: LGBTQ

Post by edwardmurphy »

PaulSacramento wrote:Supposedly if one is born with the proclivity to have sex with animals, God intended that too and lets not forget those born with an addictive personalities.
If it has a genetic component then yes, the creator of Life, the Universe, and Everything put it in the code. And yes, if he's perfect and all-knowing then he did it intentionally.

Incidentally, I've never heard of a genetic predisposition toward bestiality. It's odd that social conservatives bring it up so frequently in discussions about homosexuality. It's as if they're trying to draw a link between the two...

And no, I obviously don't know much about metaphysics. If you have a devastating metaphysical riposte feel free to make it. I'm guessing that it will involve free will, and maybe original sin. Yes? No?
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edwardmurphy
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Re: LGBTQ

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IceMobster wrote:Since you are too lazy to even click the link, allow me to copy paste a small part for you:
I clicked the link and read the executive summary. My question, which I thought was pretty clear, regarded the word salad that I quoted. What you said made no sense so I asked you to clarify.
IceMobster wrote:I haven't read it whole yet and he most probably doesn't refer to homosexuality as a mental illness. However, "born that way" is bs.
That study wasn't peer-reviewed and apparently it left out some studies that didn't fit the authors' premise. It also didn't say that "born that way" is BS. What it said is that the claim is not supported by evidence. He's right that nobody has managed to isolate a "gay gene," but his critics say that his dismissal of evidence from the field of psychology is inappropriate.
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Re: LGBTQ

Post by PaulSacramento »

y>:D<
edwardmurphy wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Supposedly if one is born with the proclivity to have sex with animals, God intended that too and lets not forget those born with an addictive personalities.
If it has a genetic component then yes, the creator of Life, the Universe, and Everything put it in the code. And yes, if he's perfect and all-knowing then he did it intentionally.

Incidentally, I've never heard of a genetic predisposition toward bestiality. It's odd that social conservatives bring it up so frequently in discussions about homosexuality. It's as if they're trying to draw a link between the two...

And no, I obviously don't know much about metaphysics. If you have a devastating metaphysical riposte feel free to make it. I'm guessing that it will involve free will, and maybe original sin. Yes? No?
You aren't trying to justify homosexuality as a God given trait, are? an argument from belief?
I would point out that your's is a self-refuting argument but that would require you understanding how off your view is from pretty much every classical theism view of God.

So, lets just say this:
That God allows for people to CHOOSE between doing what they want and what they ought, doesn't put the blame of the consequences of those choices on Him, any less that it is His fault that you get wet when it rains.
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Re: LGBTQ

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edwardmurphy wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Supposedly if one is born with the proclivity to have sex with animals, God intended that too and lets not forget those born with an addictive personalities.
If it has a genetic component then yes, the creator of Life, the Universe, and Everything put it in the code. And yes, if he's perfect and all-knowing then he did it intentionally.
This, right here, shows you don't even know the very basics about Christianity. You've been here for years. You're either the stupidest person I've seen chronically on a board or a massive troll that gets off by holding and posting apposing views. Why are you even here? It's surely not to learn about Christianity nor God.
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Re: LGBTQ

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Mallz wrote:
edwardmurphy wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Supposedly if one is born with the proclivity to have sex with animals, God intended that too and lets not forget those born with an addictive personalities.
If it has a genetic component then yes, the creator of Life, the Universe, and Everything put it in the code. And yes, if he's perfect and all-knowing then he did it intentionally.
This, right here, shows you don't even know the very basics about Christianity. You've been here for years. You're either the stupidest person I've seen chronically on a board or a massive troll that gets off by holding and posting apposing views. Why are you even here? It's surely not to learn about Christianity nor God.
Startin' to sound like Audacity did in his twilight years.
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edwardmurphy
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Re: LGBTQ

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PaulSacramento wrote:You aren't trying to justify homosexuality as a God given trait, are? an argument from belief?
I would point out that your's is a self-refuting argument but that would require you understanding how off your view is from pretty much every classical theism view of God.
If something - anything - is part of your genetic make-up then it's God given. How could it not be?

Anyway, I'm talking hypotheticals here. Psychologists mostly support the "born that way" argument, but no "gay gene" has been discovered, and maybe there isn't one there to find. But maybe there is. And if there is then it will mean that homosexuality is as much a God given trait as blue eyes or fat ankles.
PaulSacramento wrote:That God allows for people to CHOOSE between doing what they want and what they ought, doesn't put the blame of the consequences of those choices on Him, any less that it is His fault that you get wet when it rains.
We know with certainty that addiction is influenced by genetics. At the very least that means that some people are more likely to become addicts than others, regardless of environmental factors or their personal choices. Some people have susceptibility to addiction as a God given trait, while others do not. Consequently, while I agree that it's unfair to lay the blame for addiction solely at God's feet, it's equally unfair brush off genetics as irrelevant and present it as simply a matter or personal choice.
Mallz wrote:This, right here, shows you don't even know the very basics about Christianity.
Nope, I don't know a whole lot about classical theology or have an in-depth understanding of your religion, so yes, some of my comments and questions will undoubtedly make dedicated Christian apologists roll their eyes at my appalling ignorance and/or disregard for arguments that they find convincing. The claim that God gives us freedom of choice is an example of my disregard rather than my ignorance, by the way. I lean more toward determinism.
Mallz wrote:You've been here for years. You're either the stupidest person I've seen chronically on a board or a massive troll that gets off by holding and posting apposing views. Why are you even here? It's surely not to learn about Christianity nor God.
A glance at my posting history will show that 90% of my posts are in the Politics and World Events section, so no, I'm obviously not here to learn about God, and I've never claimed to be. If I wanted to know more about your faith I'd read the source material and maybe some of the hundreds of thousands of books that have been written on the topic. And frankly, even if I were a Christian I'd still disagree with most people here about politics, economics, foreign policy, sex education, abortion, and the like. I'm a center-left pragmatist in a room populated mostly by social conservative ideologues. Sparks will fly.

As far as why I'm here, I've explained it plenty of times. I find it interesting to discuss/debate/fight about the issues of the day, and I think that there's some value in exposing myself* to people whose world views are completely different from mine. And, as I've also said before, over the years I've learned a great deal and found common ground about at least something with almost everybody here. Hell, even B.W. and I agreed about something a while back.

As far as trolling, sure, I sometimes phrase things in a way that I know will piss some people off, but I'm hardly the only one who does that and it's almost never my sole intention. I challenge ideas that I disagree with, just like everybody else does. The difference isn't that I'm a "massive troll" it's that I see the world very differently than most people here.

So Mallz, what is it about having your views challenged that infuriates you so? Would you be happier if I was gone and people mostly sat around agreeing about everything? Would that make for a richer, more stimulating** experience for you?



* There you go, Rick.

**And there's another one. This is your lucky day.
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Re: LGBTQ

Post by Nicki »

edwardmurphy wrote:
Nessa wrote:Even if a person was born 'gay', it doesnt necessarily make it a good thing. And it doesnt mean a persons choice is taken from them.
Hang on there...

If you're born gay then that means that's how God wants you to be, does it not? And yet the Bible prohibits homosexuality. So why would God make a subset of people a certain way and then prohibit them from acting on their hardwired impulses?

I look forward to some great logical gymnastics.
I don't think that if a person's born with something wrong with them that's necessarily how God wants it. He allows it, but it's not part of his ultimate plan for the world. Whether all this applies to gay people or whether the gay lifestyle is a choice I'm not sure.
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Re: LGBTQ

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Anyway, I'm talking hypotheticals here. Psychologists mostly support the "born that way" argument, but no "gay gene" has been discovered, and maybe there isn't one there to find. But maybe there is. And if there is then it will mean that homosexuality is as much a God given trait as blue eyes or fat ankles.
This part here is good for discussion.
No, no "gay gene" has been found and they seem to be leaning the way of a combination of nature and nurture on this.
Personally I do think there is a genetic factor.

Now, the God given thing:
You are suggesting that how a person is born is 100% up to God and that is not correct.
A person being born blind is not born that way because God decided they are to be blind, no, there was a "screw up" on their genetic code.
Homosexuality falls under the same category because it is a "defect" in the genetic code.
Why do I say "defect"?
Because anything outside the norm and the ideal for a human being ( like being born blind), is a "defect", a "deficiency" a "deviation" from the norm, the ideal.
Homosexuality is that for obvious, reproductive, reasons.
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edwardmurphy
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Re: LGBTQ

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PaulSacramento wrote:Now, the God given thing:
You are suggesting that how a person is born is 100% up to God and that is not correct.
A person being born blind is not born that way because God decided they are to be blind, no, there was a "screw up" on their genetic code.
So God deliberately designed an imperfect system? I guess that would have to be the case if you're looking to reconcile God the creator with the ToE, but it still puzzles me that a God who's understood to be both loving and all knowing would subject humanity to such a system.


PaulSacramento wrote:Homosexuality falls under the same category because it is a "defect" in the genetic code.
Why do I say "defect"?
Because anything outside the norm and the ideal for a human being ( like being born blind), is a "defect", a "deficiency" a "deviation" from the norm, the ideal.
Homosexuality is that for obvious, reproductive, reasons.
Here's a study called The Evolution of Human Homosexual Behavior. I haven't read the whole thing, or looked any deeper into the issue, but here's a quote from the abstract:
Support is strongest for the hypothesis that homosexual behavior comes from individual selection for reciprocal altruism. Same-sex alliances have reproductive advantages, and sexual behavior at times maintains these alliances. Nonhuman primates, including the apes, use homosexual behavior in same-sex alliances, and such alliances appear to have been key in the expanded distribution of human ancestors during the Pleistocene. Homosexual emotion and behavior are, in part, emergent qualities of the human propensity for same-sex affiliation. Adaptationist explanations do not fully explain sexual behavior in humans, however; social and historical factors also play strong roles.
So there we have one possible explanation. There are others as well.

This actually makes me think of the Spartans. In Sparta every warrior was expected to marry and father children, but active (as opposed to retired) warriors lived together rather than with their wives. It was viewed as unseemly for husbands and wives to spend much time together. Their union was about providing the State with the next generation of warriors, not about love. Meanwhile, over in the barracks, homosexual unions between warriors were the norm. They were viewed as an important part of state security, as they helped maintain morale and unit cohesion. The idea was that a warrior would fight longer and harder if the guy next to him was his lover, rather than just a neighbor. It worked for them for a long time, although I wouldn't suggest Spartan society as a model to be followed. They were bizarre across the board.
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Re: LGBTQ

Post by PaulSacramento »

ED, you and it seems the author of the report, are confusing Bisexuality ( which the happens in nature and was practiced by the Spartans as a way to Forster mentor-ship and warrior camaraderie) with homosexuality which is EXCLUSIVE sexual relations between people of the same gender and CAN NOT lead to procreation via natural means.

As for God "deliberately designing" a imperfect system:
I guess if you believe that God DESIGNED is, yes BUT classical Theism doesn't state that, it states:
God created and sustains Life and that life is very good, but not perfect ( since perfect is not possible for humans for obvious reasons).

An all knowing and all loving God allows creation to unfold according to it's will, if He "dictated" the path of His creation he would not be all knowing or all loving and His creation would not be anything but "robotic".
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Re: LGBTQ

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edwardmurphy wrote: So Mallz, what is it about having your views challenged that infuriates you so? Would you be happier if I was gone and people mostly sat around agreeing about everything? Would that make for a richer, more stimulating** experience for you?
Oh, just verifying you're not part of the definition of 'who this board is intended for'. You have had ample opportunity to learn about Christian beliefs but fail to know even the basics after engaging for so long, and then you act like a condescending bigot (very easy for you to do) on most Christian views. You don't infuriate me, nor do you get anywhere close to challenging my views (I love a good admonishment towards truth; none has been found in you aka you're worthless to me). What would make for a richer, more stimulating experience? Someone who engages to learn and grow; you've already admitted you don't care about Christianity nor God. You're views are so stereotypical they're boring. Most my friends and people I come intact with are non-Christians. And they are examples of people who at are at least respectable and meaningful in their intent and conversation (and people I can learn from). How about you stop being here just for the politics (not what this board is for) and at least engage in some theology and philosophy. Bring something to the table; actually challenge peoples beliefs by engaging them. In other words, I don't see anything about you're presence here that's beneficial to anyone but yourself. And it has nothing to do with you being non-Christian with a different world view.
thatkidakayoungguy
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Re: LGBTQ

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PaulSacramento wrote:Supposedly if one is born with the proclivity to have sex with animals, God intended that too and lets not forget those born with an addictive personalities.
Seriously? People think that?
I wonder how much fire Satan will get for this....
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Re: LGBTQ

Post by thatkidakayoungguy »

One thing I don't get is how some churches will toss out people who are gays and the like. If the church is for sinners and to help people spiritually then it doesn't matter how bad they are they can still come, just don't get behind the pulpit.
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Re: LGBTQ

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Hortator wrote:How much longer is that acronym going to get? In some rather established circles, it's actually LGBTQIA+, with the I being "intersex" and the A being asexual. And the + being "whoever we forgot / wants to feel special."

And still even further, Dan Savage, an official-unofficial spokeshead, has claimed that it should really be LGBTQLFTSQIAP. Let me break it down,
lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans, queer, leather/fetish, two-spirit, questioning, intersex, and asexual [and polyamory] community/communities
While this isn't the stated aim of making the acronym so "unwieldly" (like a weapon, Dan?) there is an (un?)intentional consequence of this, same person:
It brings us one step closer to seizing control of the entire alphabet. While religious conservatives are fighting a losing battle to "take back the rainbow" from the gays....we've been making off with the alphabet one letter at a time. Pretty soon, angry religious conservatives will have to post their hateful screeds in hieroglyphics because using the alphabet will be just as gay as putting a rainbow bumper sticker on your car.
Lol. And this was from 2013, the third bold-faced letter down: http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Sava ... d=18454499
Warning: It's Dan Savage, so you're as likely as not to see the most atrocious things the human mind can create.
I don't see what's bad with intersex and asexual. I'm confused on what one should do regarding sex if they're intersexual though. How would they marry in a Christian setting?
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Re: LGBTQ

Post by thatkidakayoungguy »

edwardmurphy wrote:
thatkidakayoungguy wrote:I wonder which demon is behind all of this? Must be a powerful one since Western society is affected by the madness we're in, not just America/Canada.
Oh, sorry. I didn't realize you were touched. Please, carry on.
Real nice of you. What I was getting at was passages in the bible where the dark forces of the world, like the devil, deceive people. Surely you know about this, being on here for so long, no?
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