Did Obama wiretap Trump?

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RickD
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Re: Did Obama wiretap Trump?

Postby RickD » Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:39 pm

DBowling wrote:
RickD wrote:Was someone listening in on people in Trump Tower?

There is zero evidence to support the premise that Trump Tower was either Wiretapped or bugged in any other manner

Was Trump himself being listened to?

There is zero evidence to support the premise that Trump himself was wiretapped, bugged, or is even under investigation.

Did Obama know about this?

Obama obviously didn't know about things that never happened.

Are you really that naive to dismiss these questions?

I didn't dismiss them, but the evidence is now out and Trump's accusation that he was wiretapped by Obama has been demonstrated to have been false... by the FBI, NSA, and Trump's own Justice Department.

I am definitely not naive enough to take anything that Trump says in his tweetstorms seriously unless it is corroborated by a reliable independent source.

As of yet, Trump hasn't come forward with the evidence he says he has. If he never does, then I'll be with you saying there's no evidence provided for his claim, and I'll dismiss it too.

But saying Obama didn't know about things that never happened, is not really honest, now is it?

It may be true that there's no evidence it ever happened, but making a positive claim that it never happened?

Isn't that like an atheist saying that he doesn't see any evidence for God, so God doesn't exist?

That's an assertion on your part, that you have absolutely no way of backing up.
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Re: Did Obama wiretap Trump?

Postby RickD » Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:43 pm

edwardmurphy wrote:Rick, that ABC story has nothing to do with the elections or with Trump's claims.

Trump said that Obama bugged him, not that the FBI was surveiling Russian mobsters in his building during an investigation that ended a couple of years before he announced his candidacy for President. Why are you doing such strenuous mental gymnastics to try and justify an obvious, stupid lie?

The real story in your link is that there were Russian money launderers based in Trump Tower. I'm guessing he didn't know that, because if he did then his wiretapping lie was even stupider than it seems.

Ed,

We may never know if trump is lying. We may know that he won't provide evidence for his claim, but can we ever prove he wasn't under surveillance?
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Re: Did Obama wiretap Trump?

Postby edwardmurphy » Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:53 pm

That's a ridiculous standard of evidence, Rick.

If Trump makes a claim it's his job to prove it. If he doesn't prove it, despite the fact that it would benefit him enormously to do so, then it's reasonable to assume that he CAN'T prove it. That's reasonable.
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Re: Did Obama wiretap Trump?

Postby RickD » Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:54 pm

Fwiw:
Trump team communications captured by intelligence community surveillance, Nunes says
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/03 ... -says.html
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Re: Did Obama wiretap Trump?

Postby Philip » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:56 pm

And: http://www.politico.com/story/2017/03/devin-nunes-donald-trump-surveillance-obama-236366

What this likely indicates is that, for those in high official positions that did not know about this, the right hand often doesn't know what the left hand is doing.

If but several things come of this mess, I hope that the pipeline of restricted, private communications starts getting far better protected, and that there where there are sloppy oversights or dangerous defects in our government, that these begin to have far better oversite and policies. Also, I would hope that Trump learned his lesson (won't hold my breath), that while he might have reasonable suspicions of something, to use discretion about what he comments on, and to not make serious accusations unless he has irrefutable proof of it. Remember that old adage: "Loose lips sink ships!" Well, too many eyes and ears having access to sensitive materials is a disaster waiting to happen. We have enough challenges with just keeping (all manner of) hackers out of secret information repositories. Idiots like the WikiLeaks crowd have no appreciation that sometimes secrecy is a good thing - and just because you find out certain things that you don't like are going on, you don't just bulk release info that might well cause serious consequences. Not to mention that such was obtained illegally. But that's how anarchists tend to think. And so many on the left don't realize that if we don't do counterintelligence, that there are some really bad guys out there who can cause all manner of harm if we aren't on top of them.

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Re: Did Obama wiretap Trump?

Postby edwardmurphy » Thu Mar 23, 2017 6:40 am

RickD wrote:Fwiw:
Trump team communications captured by intelligence community surveillance, Nunes says
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/03 ... -says.html


I'm skeptical for few reasons.

First, Nunes is a close Trump ally and member of his transition team. He's also going rogue by heading to the White House with whatever information he claims to have, rather than discussing it with the rest of the members of the House Intelligence Committee, which is what he's supposed to do.

Second, this "bombshell" isn't even news, it's recent history. At this point it's common knowledge that Russian government agents and representatives are monitored by US counterintelligence and that anyone who contacts them, including Americans, will therefore also be under observation. It's frankly astonishing that none of them knew better.

Third, Nunes is being Trumpily vague in a McCarthyesque fashion. He hasn't said much of anything and he hasn't backed any of it up with any evidence. Basically he's said that Trump transition members were legally monitored during their communications with Russian agents, that some of their names might have been "unmasked" (aka leaked), and that the motivation might have been political. That's underwhelming, not to mention troublingly partisan. It would be great if a few Republicans could put their country, or even their constituents, ahead of their party.

Personally, I like the idea that somebody in our intelligence services might unmask, say, Michael Flynn as being in secret communication with the Russian ambassador. The idea that these guys can sneak around, lie about it, and have it kept a secret from the people due to secrecy rules kind of pisses me off. And frankly everybody, regardless of their political affiliations, should be glad that Flynn, who was simultaneously a paid agent of the dictator of Turkey and a senior advisor to the know-nothing President of the United States, was quickly exposed and axed.
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Re: Did Obama wiretap Trump?

Postby Philip » Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:53 am

Spinning this story, either way - whether Trump was correct on the wiretapping, or not, is far too soon. There are many entities and many agendas within the halls of power, with connections to the cloak and dagger crowd. I don't care where this stuff leads, as long as we get to the bottom of who authorized what, and what illegal and dangerous things were done, and what we need to clamp down on so that it doesn't keep happening. Anyone who wants to just put a partisan spin on this story is in denial of human nature. The negative actions and motivations of human beings are found throughout all manner of political persuasions. People who like to categorize people's character and integrity, merely upon their political affiliations - well, they're a lot like racists who demonize others based only upon skin colors other than shades of their own.

Fact is, people with power, motive and agendas want to take illegal shortcuts to obtaining what they THINK will be an advantage to whatever they see as a righteous cause. It's a "win no matter what" attitude - and it's found across the political spectrum. I never trust people's opinions if they don't ever also criticize those they feel are in their "own political camp" - AS IF, those of certain political self-identifications are either all evil or all good. That is naive, and it's why their is so much dishonesty around. There are some Democrats I respect far more than I do some Republicans. There are sleazebags in both parties - and in all camps of whatever self-identification. Often, there are no good guys and no winners. So, media outlets of all stripes are obviously working THEIR brand, their perceived publics, and playing to them for ratings and readership. But the realities of what is going on are often far more complex than such neat categorizations.

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Re: Did Obama wiretap Trump?

Postby Hortator » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:53 am

I hope everyone realizes we all went out of our minds over a single tweet.

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Re: Did Obama wiretap Trump?

Postby DBowling » Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:09 pm

RickD wrote:Fwiw:
Trump team communications captured by intelligence community surveillance, Nunes says
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/03 ... -says.html


Even if we take what Nunes says at face value (which I'm inclined to do)
Nothing Nunes says indicates that Trump Tower was wiretapped.
Nothing Nunes says indicates that Trump or anyone on his team was being monitored.

Nunes says the same thing we have seen before.
The intelligence community was conducting legitimate surveillance of foreign targets.
The communications of Trump associates that were captured were 'incidental collection' involving foreign targets.
And the illegal aspect of this (as before) is the leaking of information regarding American citizens who are communicating with foreign targets who are being monitored by the intelligence communities.

There is nothing in what Nunes says to excuse Trump's lie that Obama had him Wiretapped.

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Re: Did Obama wiretap Trump?

Postby Philip » Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:21 pm

Hortator: I hope everyone realizes we all went out of our minds over a single tweet.


Yes, it's bad enough at some of the emotion-driven, late-night posts we sometimes see here on godandscience. Many of us have had second thoughts concerning posts or emails we've sent. Just imagine if any one of us were president of the U.S.? y:-? :) :D :lol: :P :| :econfused: :esad: :shock: :esurprised: :roll: Hey, thank God most of us aren't y[-o< y>:D<

An important question of whether Trump will be an effective and good president is, will he learn to control his impulsive mouth and what he electronically sends in his rants of the moment. Hopefully, he'll learn to have patience and triple check info he's received before he irresponsibly tweets or whatever. But he's an instinctive guy - it's why he was able to seize the presidency - despite his obnoxious, grandstanding personality, on often crude statements, he was nonetheless hyper aware of and tapped into many issues that the heartland was and remains extremely upset over. Remember as well, this is a guy who grew up in the Northeast center of liberalism, and the often brash, crude culture of New Yorkers - he knows exactly how they think, why, and where their thinking and actions have proven detrimental to America - particularly as it relates to American business. If he does but three things - keeps us safe, out of war, and facilitates the economy and gets businesses going strong again - those alone will leave a great legacy.

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Re: Did Obama wiretap Trump?

Postby Byblos » Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:39 pm

Philip wrote:... Northeast center of liberalism, and the often brash, crude culture of New Yorkers -


I'm not sure whether to feel insulted or complimented. Probably a little of both. :mrgreen:
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Re: Did Obama wiretap Trump?

Postby Philip » Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:30 pm

Byblos, my wife is from CT, so, I've spent a fair bit if time up that way. However, NYC is a LOT different than the culture in other portions of NY state - as you certainly know. Where do you work - in the city?

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Re: Did Obama wiretap Trump?

Postby RickD » Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:46 pm

Potential 'smoking gun' showing Obama administration spied on Trump team, source says
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/03 ... -says.html
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Re: Did Obama wiretap Trump?

Postby Philip » Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:37 pm

The intelligence is said to leave no doubt the Obama administration, in its closing days, was using the cover of legitimate surveillance on foreign targets to spy on President-elect Trump, according to sources.

The key to that conclusion is the unmasking of selected U.S. persons whose names appeared in the intelligence, the sources said, adding that the paper trail leaves no other plausible purpose for the unmasking other than to damage the incoming Trump administration.


IF it is true, how are they going to spin THAT??? y:-? WHOEVER ordered such - they clearly think they are above the law, or that for whatever political ends, the ends justify the nefarious means.

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Re: Did Obama wiretap Trump?

Postby abelcainsbrother » Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:18 am

It is just like I have been saying this whole time. First off it is a Democrat and liberal media lie that there was collusion between Trump and Russia and that the election was hacked by Russia that helped Trump win,even while Democrats deny election fraud can happen or is happening when Trump says it is.This has been proven wrong as I have been saying the whole time.By the way Trump is now setting up a commission team to investigate election and vote fraud and he will be vindicated about that too.The Democrats and the liberal media have been caught in another lie to try to hurt the Trump administration.

This whole thing is backfiring on the Democrat Party because Trump is releasing information alittle at a time to vindicate that he was indeed wiretapped at Trump Tower like he said. Like I have said Trump is setting up the Democrats and playing them like a fiddle. He puts out a tweet and lets them attack him,he reels them in after they have lied when it gets to where they smell blood in the water and then he puts out the truth and exposes them. He has been doing this althroughout the election when somebody attacks him. He hits them back by exposing what they are hiding and don't want people to know. The Democrats and the liberal media will have egg on their face when Donald Trump is finished and nobody will believe anything they say after this.

This is a big reason why I have supported Donald Trump because I knew he was the only one that could even have a chance at draining the swamp in Washington like he said.There is going to be so much corruption exposed that at the very least there will be massive changes in Washingon.It is David vs Goliath - Goliath being the establishment in both parties that is corrupt.

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