RTD: The liberal postmortem is not going well

[Jac3510]

"A. Barton Hinkle column: The liberal postmortem is not going well"
Richmond Times-Dispatch

• It’s been two weeks and counting since the larbord side of the country lost a can’t-lose election to the worst presidential nominee in American history. Since then, in between the cry-ins and riots, liberals have paused to catch their breath and ask how it could have happened. The answers they are coming up with are not encouraging.
  
  One school of thought insists that the left needs to understand what Trump voters think and what they want. But so far there doesn’t seem to be much chance of that happening. Even those who ascribe to this thesis approach the subject with the mindset of an anthropologist, or perhaps an exobiologist: “Who are these alien creatures? What do they want?” (Not to be viewed as a strange and repulsive species of semi-intelligent bug, would be one guess.)

Read the rest of the article here. It's very well written and I think captures a fundamental problem of the Democratic interpretation(s) of the election results. On one side, Trump voters are seen as these weird, sub-intellectual species that need to be understood so that their concerns can be addressed and a political message crafted so that they can do what is in their best interest (i.e., vote Democrat). On the other side, Trump voters don't need to be understood. They already are. The problem is these stupid buffoons were snookered by fake news and would never have voted for Trump if they only knew the truth. So it's up to Democrats to tell the people the truth more clearly and shut down obfuscating talking points of others so that these voters can do what is in their best interest (i.e., vote Democrat).

The lack of self-reflection on the part of the DNC would be shocking if it weren't so typical liberal elitism. As an aside, one more quote from the article (my second favorite line):

• The prescription for the ailment is the “Ideological Turing Test,” invented by Bryan Caplan, an economist at George Mason University. It’s simple enough: If you truly understand your political adversary, then you should be able to write an essay explicating his or her point of view well enough that a neutral judge cannot tell the difference.

I can tell you this . . . I know lots and lots of conservatives and Trump voters who can pass Caplan's test very easily. They do it every day. It's how they survive at their universities, work places, and social events. I don't know any liberals who can pass it, though. Just goes to the same point I already made. The lack of self-reflection. Sad, really.

[Philip]

Funny thing is that most uber liberals think that most who voted for Trump are thrilled with him, while millions who did have many reasonable concerns, with many not truly liking many things about him. But what these millions powerfully reacted to was the brain-dead policies and sensibilities of progressives and the left. As bad as many of them feared certain things about Trump, nonetheless, they despised what they have long known about the HillBillies and Democrat sensibilities FAR more! Millions pulling that lever for Trump did so with a grim face - while thinking, "almost anyone but Hillary!"

[Kurieuo]

The lack of self-reflection on the part of the DNC would be shocking if it weren't so typical liberal elitism. As an aside, one more quote from the article (my second favorite line):

• The prescription for the ailment is the “Ideological Turing Test,” invented by Bryan Caplan, an economist at George Mason University. It’s simple enough: If you truly understand your political adversary, then you should be able to write an essay explicating his or her point of view well enough that a neutral judge cannot tell the difference.

I can tell you this . . . I know lots and lots of conservatives and Trump voters who can pass Caplan's test very easily. They do it every day. It's how they survive at their universities, work places, and social events. I don't know any liberals who can pass it, though. Just goes to the same point I already made. The lack of self-reflection. Sad, really.

Yes, I agree. In a different context, I often think I could do a better job at Atheism than many, and if I wrote an article people just wouldn't be able to tell and would think I am one.

On the other hand, I don't believe an Atheist can pass the Caplan's test easily when it comes to Theism -- because many just see such as irrationalism and some "screws loose" or what-have-you. They just wouldn't know where to start. I'm doubtful many wouldn't be able to talk deeper theology, present logical arguments for God whether it be from nature or philosophy, at a deep, convincing level.

[patrick]

Yeah, this is one of the most frustrating things to see coursing through my own circles. There are just ridiculous levels of hypocrisy and frankly blindness with how most liberal/progressive-leaning people have handled these election results. Always pointing to the extremists to justify their fighting against literally half of the nation.

[melanie]

I find it interesting that here in Austraila under a conservative government we have as a nation publicly addressed how we should both support our longstanding alliance with the US but at the same time diplomatically remove ourselves from supporting the Trump administration. By and large our conservative voters think that Trump is a twat, beyond that dangerous in his ideals with lack of political know how.
This idea that Republicans are ill informed, uneducated hillbillies is not only reflected in the US amoung certain crowds but a criticism that runs a lot further. I have heard so many people say 'how could they let that man become President? In my circles, my most conservatives friends have been the most vocal. My answer is how could they let it come down to a race between Trump and Hilary! I am no fan of Hilary Clinton.
What a sad state of affairs when it becomes a choice between two crap candidates. Pretty much a damned if you do, damned if you don't.
I think that is where the real frustration lies.
When you look at the millennials, the under 30's they are have not been represented, their voice drowned out by an aging demographic.
This isn't new but never so advertly obvious in this current political atmosphere. It leads to utter dissatisfaction with the political process which leads to outlandish speculation like the intellectual inferiority of Republican voters. Which of course isn't true, but people the world over are trying to make sense of how a man like Trump finds himself top dog of the most influential nation today.
One can't help but think.... Stupid is as stupid does.
Of course time will tell, people have short memories either way.
Either he will be the President that defies the odds and brings about outlandish but necessary changes or he will defy the status quo in ways that are outlandishly reckless and dangerous. Of course the third alternative is that now he is elected all the campaign promises will become null and void and he'll coast along, alienating all of his voters in a safe and not rock the boat too much mentality. He wouldn't be the first politician to tow the line when push comes to shove.

From an international standpoint America has just undergone the most outrageous political circus. Democracy at it's most cringe worthy.
The debates were more than I could stomach.
Give me boring, political policies and campaigning over rip to shreds credibility, shaming and theatrics. The winner more deserving of an Oscar than political cred.
Sad state of affairs.
So I think the least of your worries is the dubious antics after the fact of disgruntled liberals but rather the entire conclusion of how this pans out.

[Philip]

So, Australian politics are typically less entertaining, less frustrating?

I see us coming down to Trump and Hillary from two long-time habits: People who refuse to vote in primaries because they can't find a candidate that checks an unrealistic number of their precious boxes on various issues - which means, lesser and lesser quality candidates, over time, end up being on the ballots and winning. And then, in the elections they'll refuse to vote for an imperfect or considerably less preferred candidate, over one that is clearly FAR worse - which, over time, escalates crappy candidates, because the message the parties get are, "People are stupid and the crummy candidates we've been putting forward have been successful in playing to emotions and unreasonable fears." So, people are idealists in a non-ideal, messed-up world. Yet, in the REAL world, we have to make constant distinctions between often very poor or undesirable choices. But we do so anyway, because NOT choosing can lead to things that are far worse. We choose the "best" amongst our actual, if highly flawed, choices, and then hope and pray for outcomes that exceed our expectations. We so often fail to pray about and for either candidates or office holders. God can and has often used the most unlikely and ill-equipped people for good purposes. We are only responsible for voting the best we can amongst the available choices - and prayerfully so. The rest is in God's hands - how He lets and wants it to play out. So, when millions, over many elections, fail to vote as realists, whining that every time they can't find anyone to vote for - well, that's why we ended up with Trump and Hillary.

The candidates are basically a reflection of voter sensibilities and habits over a long period of time. If we'd long had ENOUGH people of good values and common sense voting and paying close attention to key issues, it would force the political parties to vett higher quality candidates that wouldn't be so easily successful at their pandering with disingenuous B.S. and lowbrow tactics, focusing on irrelevant, emotional/fringe/PC-type issues. BTW, it's unsurprising, is it not, that a BS degree in Political Science?

BTW, I've no idea of what Trump will mean for us. But I pray and have hope for the best outcomes. But the outcomes are not my responsibility.

[abelcainsbrother]

I find it interesting that here in Austraila under a conservative government we have as a nation publicly addressed how we should both support our longstanding alliance with the US but at the same time diplomatically remove ourselves from supporting the Trump administration. By and large our conservative voters think that Trump is a twat, beyond that dangerous in his ideals with lack of political know how.
This idea that Republicans are ill informed, uneducated hillbillies is not only reflected in the US amoung certain crowds but a criticism that runs a lot further. I have heard so many people say 'how could they let that man become President? In my circles, my most conservatives friends have been the most vocal. My answer is how could they let it come down to a race between Trump and Hilary! I am no fan of Hilary Clinton.
What a sad state of affairs when it becomes a choice between two crap candidates. Pretty much a damned if you do, damned if you don't.
I think that is where the real frustration lies.
When you look at the millennials, the under 30's they are have not been represented, their voice drowned out by an aging demographic.
This isn't new but never so advertly obvious in this current political atmosphere. It leads to utter dissatisfaction with the political process which leads to outlandish speculation like the intellectual inferiority of Republican voters. Which of course isn't true, but people the world over are trying to make sense of how a man like Trump finds himself top dog of the most influential nation today.
One can't help but think.... Stupid is as stupid does.
Of course time will tell, people have short memories either way.
Either he will be the President that defies the odds and brings about outlandish but necessary changes or he will defy the status quo in ways that are outlandishly reckless and dangerous. Of course the third alternative is that now he is elected all the campaign promises will become null and void and he'll coast along, alienating all of his voters in a safe and not rock the boat too much mentality. He wouldn't be the first politician to tow the line when push comes to shove.

From an international standpoint America has just undergone the most outrageous political circus. Democracy at it's most cringe worthy.
The debates were more than I could stomach.
Give me boring, political policies and campaigning over rip to shreds credibility, shaming and theatrics. The winner more deserving of an Oscar than political cred.
Sad state of affairs.
So I think the least of your worries is the dubious antics after the fact of disgruntled liberals but rather the entire conclusion of how this pans out.

It can be really hard to judge from the outside unless you have a good understanding of politics in America for the last 30 years but the reason we chose Trump is that Trump is not a politician first off. We did not want a politician at all when Trump got in the race. You can go back 30-40 years and listen to speeches of politicians in both parties,both Republicans and Democrats,listen to all of their promises and things they want to do and yet can now see after all of this time they were all lies and the country keeps going the wrong way no matter who is in office. The problem is both parties and a one party system. Oh,politicians act like bitter enemies but only one party gets its way really and there is no real true opposition. Our government has not gained even one conservative policy and is all liberal,despite Republicans running against Democrats as conservative and after 30-40 years have gained absolutely nothing conservative at all,even when they have had majorities in our government. America is hurting because of socialism which does not work and has weakened America and so it was a no-brainer to choose a businessman who is anti-establishment for President. He really cannot do any worse than politicians have and just might fix America if he fulfills his promises.Our media is biased too and is just a propaganda machine really and so I can only imagine what the media in Australia is like and I can't help but think that the anti-Trump feelings has a lot to do with the Australia media.

[Kurieuo]

Melanie, just wait until One Nation get in.

Otherwise, Australians swallow Western media hook, line and sinker. In that respect, 50% US citizens seem to be waking up to the propaganda being fed them. Australia, no such luck.

Oh, isn't it interesting now, the innocent civilians that are coming out of Eastern Aleppo, thankful to the Syrian Army for freeing them. If only they knew Australian planes bombed them elsewhere in joint Coalition campaign with the US and UK only months earlier. Not to mention us all in the West screaming "war crimes" at Russia and Syrian Army (meanwhile in Yemen and Mosul). Disgusting.

If for no other reason, Trump wanting to work side-by-side with Russia is one big reason to vote for him.

[Philip]

This brain-dead thinking, "Oh, the evil dictator is killing innocent Muslims, so we should support the rebel factions to topple him," should GO! Is whatever dictator typically evil? Of course. But unopposed while he rules with a iron fist, is not typically there FAR less bloodshed and disruption? Is there not mostly peace - if imposed and back by great force. Certainly! But you remove such people, you simply are trading them for a gazillion Muslim factions that will then battle each other. Happened in Iraq, Egypt, Libya - when will we ever learn???!!! We have absolutely NO idea as to the identity, intentions and ambitions of the various rebel factions in these situations. They are typically equally dangerous to each other, and stability wise, a much graver disruption of peace that the rule of the dictator - and not just to any one country, but often to an entire region.

So often these rebel groups each have some Muslim republic Nirvana fantasy in which their version of Islam will make their nation prosperous, dominate, and spread in influence - as do their rivals - each with key differing points in their theology. How perversely stupid was Obama and Co. (and others) to pour countless millions into disrupting Libya. Same result: civil war, instability, millions suffer, food, medical shortages, refugees fleeing - all of that. A dictator, not threatening their neighbors or the region, is often MUCH preferred. And if that dictator gets dangerous - remove HIM - don't destabilize an entire country or region with fantasies of instilling democracy, etc. Look at what democracy fantasies produced in Egypt - the election of more Muslim ideologues and aggressive repressors that hated their opposition. Democracy to do WHAT, to WHOM, with what end results?

[Kurieuo]

Watch Kirby continuing to maintain the myth of Russia and Syrian government slaughtering civilians narrative, although it's starting to come unstuck now Eastern Aleppo is being taken back:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1tp-v-y9Ng

Also, related video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-AH-i0ujgc&t=20s

[melanie]

Melanie, just wait until One Nation get in.

Otherwise, Australians swallow Western media hook, line and sinker. In that respect, 50% US citizens seem to be waking up to the propaganda being fed them. Australia, no such luck.

Oh, isn't it interesting now, the innocent civilians that are coming out of Eastern Aleppo, thankful to the Syrian Army for freeing them. If only they knew Australian planes bombed them elsewhere in joint Coalition campaign with the US and UK only months earlier. Not to mention us all in the West screaming "war crimes" at Russia and Syrian Army (meanwhile in Yemen and Mosul). Disgusting.

If for no other reason, Trump wanting to work side-by-side with Russia is one big reason to vote for him.

Haha please explain
Pauline is an idiot, with the IQ of my cat. But yet people vote for her, most surprisingly in the last election.
I will admit that my previous assumptions have been that idiots/bogans flock and regretfully there is a lot of halfwits so therefore 'Pauline'.
That argument is really no different to the assumption that Republican voters were just short of a few IQ points. Whilst that argument is compelling it's not true.
Well more accurately it may have been true but no longer.
There has been an interesting shift within politics across European nations, here and abroad that has highlighted extreme right wing parties gaining momentum.
Scary, when you look at the policies of the parties.
What was once underground and shuned is now on the precipice of mainstream. This phenomen is across the board. Not only in the US but Across Europe and here.
Extreme right wing, racist idealogies that were once imbedded in a small minority have found their way into the mainstream.
Many Sociologists and psychologists have acknowledged the shift and for the first time in modern history advert racism and discrimination is seemingly opulent and accepted. The result will be to all our detriment.
We never learn