The lesser of two evils

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theophilus
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The lesser of two evils

Post by theophilus »

We are often faced with situations where we must choose between good and evil. In such situations it is easy for us to know what choice we must make even though it is often hard to actually make that choice. But there are times when we must choose between two alternatives which are both evil. We often encounter this kind of choice in elections. We must choose between two candidates, both of whom are evil. The usual solution is to choose the lesser of the two evils.

Citizens of the United States are facing such a choice in our current presidential election. From a Christian point of view neither Hillary Clinton nor Donald Trump would be a good President. Some Christians reject the idea of voting for the lesser of the two evils because even the lesser evil is still evil. That means we should not vote for either Clinton or Trump. At one time a accepted this view and even made a post in my blog supporting it.

https://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/2016/ ... #more-4406

I had made up my mind not to vote for either Clinton or Trump, but to vote for a third party candidate or write in the name of a candidate. I have changed my mind because I realized that even God sometimes brings an evil ruler to power to supplant someone who is even more evil. What right do I have to maintain a higher standard than the one God himself follows?

Solomon began his reign well, acting in obedience to God. However he took many wives from the nations around him and under their influence he began to serve their gods. Because of this God took ten of the tribes from his son and made Jeroboam their ruler.
When Jeroboam went out of Jerusalem, the prophet Ahijah the Shilonite found him on the road. Now Ahijah had dressed himself in a new garment, and the two of them were alone in the open country. Then Ahijah laid hold of the new garment that was on him, and tore it into twelve pieces. And he said to Jeroboam, “Take for yourself ten pieces, for thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, ‘Behold, I am about to tear the kingdom from the hand of Solomon and will give you ten tribes (but he shall have one tribe, for the sake of my servant David and for the sake of Jerusalem, the city that I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel), because they have forsaken me and worshiped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemosh the god of Moab, and Milcom the god of the Ammonites, and they have not walked in my ways, doing what is right in my sight and keeping my statutes and my rules, as David his father did.”
1 Kings 11:29-33 ESV
Chapter 12 of 1 Kings tells how this prophecy was fulfilled. Jeroboam should have been grateful to God and served him faithfully but he didn’t do this.
Jeroboam said in his heart, “Now the kingdom will turn back to the house of David. If this people go up to offer sacrifices in the temple of the LORD at Jerusalem, then the heart of this people will turn again to their lord, to Rehoboam king of Judah, and they will kill me and return to Rehoboam king of Judah.”

So the king took counsel and made two calves of gold. And he said to the people, “You have gone up to Jerusalem long enough. Behold your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt.”

And he set one in Bethel, and the other he put in Dan. Then this thing became a sin, for the people went as far as Dan to be before one.
1 Kings 12:26-30 ESV
Jeroboam was evil but God made him king because he was less evil that Solomon.

A later king of Israel, Ahab, married the daughter of the king of Sidon and introduced the worship of Baal into Israel. This led to the well known confrontation between Elijah and the prophets of Baal found in 1 kings 18. In spite of Elijah’s victory some of the Israelites continued to serve Baal and so God raised up Jehu to destroy Ahab’s descendants and rule in his place.
Then Elisha the prophet called one of the sons of the prophets and said to him, “Tie up your garments, and take this flask of oil in your hand, and go to Ramoth-gilead. And when you arrive, look there for Jehu the son of Jehoshaphat, son of Nimshi. And go in and have him rise from among his fellows, and lead him to an inner chamber. Then take the flask of oil and pour it on his head and say, ‘Thus says the LORD, I anoint you king over Israel.’ Then open the door and flee; do not linger.”
2 Kings 9:1-3 ESV
Jehu was victorious but like Jeroboam before him he failed to honor God and serve him.
Thus Jehu wiped out Baal from Israel. But Jehu did not turn aside from the sins of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, which he made Israel to sin—that is, the golden calves that were in Bethel and in Dan. And the LORD said to Jehu, “Because you have done well in carrying out what is right in my eyes, and have done to the house of Ahab according to all that was in my heart, your sons of the fourth generation shall sit on the throne of Israel.”

But Jehu was not careful to walk in the law of the LORD, the God of Israel, with all his heart. He did not turn from the sins of Jeroboam, which he made Israel to sin.
2 Kings 10:28-31 ESV
It seems clear to me that Christians shouldn’t sit out the election but should vote for the lesser evil. Of course the first thing we need to determine is which one is the lesser evil. Since Trump has no record of public service it isn’t easy to determine just what he would do if elected.

There is one issue on which it is clear that Trump would make a better President than Clinton and that is abortion. Clinton has always supported the right of women to abort their babies and has said that she will appoint Federal judges that agree with her on this issue. Here is a news report on Trump’s view of abortion.
Likely Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump is winning praise from pro-life advocates for hiring a top pro-life advocate as a key domestic policy advisory. The presumptive GOP nominee hired long-time conservative congressional aide John Mashburn as his policy director.

Mashburn is pro-life and has worked for pro-life lawmakers including the late Sen. Jesse Helms, former Senate Republican leader Trent Lott and current North Carolina Sen. Thom Tillis. As the Washington Examiner reports, pro-life groups see the move as Trump making serious overtures to pro-life voters and hail it as Trump indicating he will govern in a pro-life manner if elected president.
http://www.lifenews.com/2016/05/05/dona ... -director/
Unless something happens between now and the election to change my mind I intend to vote for Trump. But while Christians should exercise their right to vote, it is even more important that they pray for their leaders and for those who are candidates for leadership. God can override the intentions of a bad leader and cause him to act in ways that are good.
The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD;
he turns it wherever he will.
Proverbs 21:1 ESV
Perhaps if we were more faithful in praying for our leaders we wouldn’t be as likely to face the choice of having to choose between two bad candidates.
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Kurieuo
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Re: The lesser of two evils

Post by Kurieuo »

Don't forget Trump in backed by Pence. Really, I think Trump is pro-life, but then he's not acquainted with the arguments and movement. His main thing is about borders, and fixing America economically. Borders was his strength in the 3rd debate as I saw it. Pence however, is where Trump no doubt gets good advice, better educated on other matters.

I don't see Pence as a "lesser evil". I'd vote for Pence, and a vote for Trump is that.
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Re: The lesser of two evils

Post by DBowling »

theophilus wrote: It seems clear to me that Christians shouldn’t sit out the election but should vote for the lesser evil. Of course the first thing we need to determine is which one is the lesser evil. Since Trump has no record of public service it isn’t easy to determine just what he would do if elected.
I agree that we as Christians should not sit out this election.
But I disagree that Christians should feel compelled to vote for a fundamentally evil candidate when there is a candidate out there whose political values and morals are not repugnant to Christians.

Evan McMullin passes the pro-life test. He is a real conservative who actually knows what it really means to be pro-life.
Evan McMullin passes the Supreme Court test. Evan would appoint Judges who hold to the Constitution to the Supreme Court.
However, Evan is not a narcissistic moral reprobate.

The false narrative that is sometimes presented to Christians is "there are only two candidates out there that can really win" and that I am being *** fill in the blank *** if I choose to follow my conscience and vote for someone else.

The brutal fact of the matter is, if a person really wants to vote for someone who has a chance to win, then there is one and only one choice out there right now... Hillary Clinton.

The question for me then becomes...
If my conscience will not let me vote for the only person who has a realistic chance of winning, then who should I vote for?
1. A lying, dishonest conman... who is extremely unlikely to win.
2. A real conservative who actually shares my political values and morals... who is extremely unlikely to win.
But while Christians should exercise their right to vote, it is even more important that they pray for their leaders and for those who are candidates for leadership. God can override the intentions of a bad leader and cause him to act in ways that are good.
Amen...
And that is true regardless of whether the next President is Clinton or even Trump or McMullin
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Re: The lesser of two evils

Post by Jac3510 »

Kurieuo wrote:I don't see Pence as a "lesser evil". I'd vote for Pence, and a vote for Trump is that.
Hello, "fake because."

Not fussing at you, btw. We all rationalize most of our choices. Clinton supporters are no different (all the idiotic rhetoric around Trump being a racist or sexist or whatever are just examples of fake becauses, too). Even "the lesser of two evils" argument for not voting for Trump (or Clinton) is just a fake because (looking at people like DB).

EVERYONE, even me, have fake becauses. They aren't fake because they aren't true and don't really influence our decisions. In fact, they do genuinely influence our decisions. They are "becauses." But the important thing to recognize is that they give us permission, a warrant of motivation if you will, to choose what we already want to choose. It takes a lot of honesty with ourselves to see which of our influences are fake becauses and which ones are root becauses.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
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Re: The lesser of two evils

Post by abelcainsbrother »

Just so both of you know Trump is a born again Christian but he is a babe in Christ.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.
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Re: The lesser of two evils

Post by AreEl »

abelcainsbrother wrote:Just so both of you know Trump is a born again Christian but he is a babe in Christ.
:pound:
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Re: The lesser of two evils

Post by B. W. »

Theophilus,

If one votes for a third party or use the write in is simply a vote for Hilary...

Better to vote for a Cyrus rather than Jezebel....


theophilus wrote:I had made up my mind not to vote for either Clinton or Trump, but to vote for a third party candidate or write in the name of a candidate. I have changed my mind because I realized that even God sometimes brings an evil ruler to power to supplant someone who is even more evil. What right do I have to maintain a higher standard than the one God himself follows?
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Kurieuo
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Re: The lesser of two evils

Post by Kurieuo »

ACB, whether or not Trump is a Christian remains for me to be seen, as he clearly doesn't accept the same message I receive. Rather, he sees Christ's forgiveness as for the weak minded who won't take responsibility to change themselves. He still thinks a person can change themselves, and while I endorse responsibility, when you have a debt you yourself can't repay but can only be redeemed from, such is just stupidity.

Jac, you might be interested in this YouTube video because it's god Scott Adams in it. ;) He was on Info Wars a month ago, was some awkward moments, but he highlighted the persuasion techniques used. Nonetheless, I must disagree with Adams who thinks we can't really know the truth due to such, because well, we can know the truth and some are either closer or further away from it.
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Re: The lesser of two evils

Post by Jac3510 »

I don't watch anything with Alex Jones in it, Adams or not. *shudder*

And there's a lot I disagree with Adam's on. Still, I think he's right on his basic ideas around persuasion and the whole notion of rationalizing our choices via fake becauses. Take the Pence example. I have a friend of mine who told me he was voting fro Trump because Pence is on the ticket. When I pressed him on that, he just out and told me that wasn't really true, that he liked Pence a lot, and that Pence being there made him feel better about voting for Trump. But ultimately, he was voting for Trump because he hates Clinton and is angry at the entire Washington-Media establishment. So there you go: fake because. :)
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
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Re: The lesser of two evils

Post by abelcainsbrother »

Kurieuo wrote:ACB, whether or not Trump is a Christian remains for me to be seen, as he clearly doesn't accept the same message I receive. Rather, he sees Christ's forgiveness as for the weak minded who won't take responsibility to change themselves. He still thinks a person can change themselves, and while I endorse responsibility, when you have a debt you yourself can't repay but can only be redeemed from, such is just stupidity.

Jac, you might be interested in this YouTube video because it's god Scott Adams in it. ;) He was on Info Wars a month ago, was some awkward moments, but he highlighted the persuasion techniques used. Nonetheless, I must disagree with Adams who thinks we can't really know the truth due to such, because well, we can know the truth and some are either closer or further away from it.
Well of course I can't prove it and people can believe what they choose butI know that Dobson has said Trump is a born again Christian and I've heard it from others also.Dobson said he is a new Christian.

Here is an example. Now this is Perry Stone on periscope explaining why he is leaving the Republican party but he reveals things in it about things he knows about. Not saying I agree with his idea but at the very least Trump is a believer based on what people have said.
And don't forget early on Trump said he was a believer and a Presbyterian and before he even ran he met with Christian leaders,ministers and questioned them about issues that are important to them. He asked them why they don't have a voice in politics and they told him that if we do we'll lose our tax exempt status and Trump told them that if he wins he wants to change that. Now whether or not you think Christians should be able to have a voice politically is not the issue. The issue is Trump wants Christians to have a voice and thinks it would be good for our country.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXOy6jvrqv4
Last edited by abelcainsbrother on Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:15 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.
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Re: The lesser of two evils

Post by Kurieuo »

Isn't not watching the video because it's Jones somewhat of a genetic fallacy? I've actually tired of Jones myself, can't stand his aggressiveness and constant agitation and alarmism, but nonetheless I found this one interesting because of Adams. But, nonetheless he highlights much that does turn out true via events that transpire.

Pence and those supporting Trump (i.e., his team), are nonetheless I think very good reasons reason, because they install some bumper bars that a bull can't necessarily break past. I think Trump knows his own weakness, and purposefully chose advisors who could help "bump" him back into line.

You know, initially I was "vote for the lesser" evil, and I liked what I heard in Trump, but it was more I hated Hillary given what I know about her and Obama's affiliation with Planned Parenthood and liberal stances on such issues. I side with Theophilus here, with what he identified as the primary issue. So much so, say that say Hillary has a change of heart and began endorsing the sanctity of all human life, supreme court justices favourable towards such and than supportive of the barbarism that happens to those not born, then if Trump was more Obama/Hillary-like in their current positions, my vote would go for Hillary.

Another main reason for Trump is that he is anti-establishment, closest thing to an independent where there is a hope of the corruption on both sides come out, hope against internationalism reigning in the west, and really some hope for freedom and people running the government rather than government the people. Both mainline Republicans and Democrat politicians are anti-Trump because of such. Who knows how far back the corruption goes? It is for this reason I say Trump can't be allowed to win at any cost.
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Re: The lesser of two evils

Post by abelcainsbrother »

It is true Alex Jones gets angry alot and rants against globalism,he gets angry about what has been done to this country but as far as this election goes he has been so much more truthful than any of the media.Despite how how people see him as a conspiracy theorist he has been very accurate about things going on.Except for maybe Hannity,Judge Jeneane Pirro,etc he is better than Fox News.I might could see if he just spouts stuff and expects you to believe it with no evidence,which is typical with conspiracy theorists but Alex Jones provides evidence to back himself up and you can look up the articles yourself and read them yourself if you don't believe him. And his guests he has on are great.The only thing that might bother me about him is he has a tendency to talk over his guests as he interviews them.It doesn't bother me that he is in full support for Trump.He is a great alternative to the media if you want to be informed.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.
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Re: The lesser of two evils

Post by theophilus »

Someone wrote a letter to the Kansas City Star in which he said we should vote for Trump because he is certain to be impeached for something he says or does and that means Mike Pence will become President. I don't agree that Trump is likely to be impeached but he is right that in deciding who to vote for we should take into consideration who the candidates running mate is. On this issue Trump made a much better choice than Clinton did.
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