Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

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Furstentum Liechtenstein
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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#91

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:26 am

Gman wrote:I'm still trying to figure out what happened to the "Illuminati" belief.. Now its the Jewish Zionists fault for starting the state of Israel.. :roll:
Anti-Zionism is the new, polite and socially-acceptable version of anti-semitism. It is quite popular among seculars and is a great cover for what is really Olde Tyme Jew hatred. I don't understand how a Bible-believing Christian can be an anti-Zionist...but such people do exist, as this thread has made clear.

Perhaps the reason is poor hermenutics: those who interpret the Bible allegorically can easily strip Israel of its right to the land, can invalidate all God's promises to Isarel, and can even see themselves as ''the new Israel''.

If it's any consolation, Jew-hatred will only get worse as time goes by, so things are unfolding as the Bible predicts.

FL y~o)
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#92

Post by Lonewolf » Sat Aug 16, 2014 11:49 am

G'Man labelled it as ~> Complete Rubbish

To not lend credence to any “historical fact” about Zionism, and how Zionism rules over the State of Israel and over the Palestinian people is the real and “complete rubbish.”

What I’m saying is not antisemitism, but most assuredly anti-Zionist!
Most folks can’t tell the difference, unless they'd like to "educate themselves" on the subject.

I wonder just how well we are interpreting things and prophesies these days., We looked to the physical return of Israel as a fulfillment of prophesy, but yet, if we read back in time, regarding the destruction and rebuilding of the temple of which Jesus foretold to the Jews, and yet, they did not believe, for they did not “understand.” They laughed and mocked and said, this man is crazy., he’s a looney toon., talking about destroying this temple which we have built our whole “religious” faith upon and has taken how many years upon years to complete? And then He says that He will rebuild it in 3 days., how is that possible? .. But yet it happened, and we all are witness to that, aren't we? We looked to witness the rebirth of Israel ~> so that the bringing back to the land of milk and honey prophesied in scripture would be accomplished, but could that bringing back be “a spiritual one” instead of an “earthly State” ??

Does it make sense to bring back Israel in a nationhood sense of things to this earth just to have them behave as all the rest of the imperial nations of this world behave? Could they be, in a sense, have become like Babylon themselves? All high and mighty morally, intellectually, scriptural and such, but yet ~> be devoid of Love?

Could it be that Zionist Jews still think of the Palestinians today ..
~> as they did once of the Gentiles as dogs? And maybe still do?

It is sad sad indeed, that the Jewish People have had to endure so much hate and violence throughout history, before and after Christ., from Assyrians to Persians, to Egyptians and Greeks, to Romans and Christians, to the Spanish Inquisition, Nazi Germany and Stalin’s purge, onto today’s onslaught from fundamental jihadist Islam., but you have to ask, you have to wonder just what exactly are many who represent the Jewish State are all about? Are they representing what we would term “Christian values?” Or is it something else? .. Just because a person looks like us and talks like us, doesn't necessarily mean that they “think” like us, nor do they necessarily wish the same for the world as we do. That's not being anti-Jewish people ~> that's simple questioning and going against what some in power within the Jewish People are working for!

Even here in the United States we question what the hell is Washington doing? What in tarnation is the Ford, the Carter, the Reagan, the Bush Senior, Clinton, Bush Junior or Obama doing? What the hell!? It's all going to the gutter!

Whatever happened to that –so called- second commandment? The one that “commands” to Love our neighbor and do unto them, as we would have done unto us?

Would we send F-16’s and Apache attack helicopters to bomb a “strip” in search for that one target, regardless of whether bombing that strip kills all others around them? Is that really self defense? Is that really in the advancement for peace? Is that really demonstrating Christian values?

I wonder what Christ our LORD and Paul would have to say about that ?? I wonder not too much, because, I already know in my heart that they would not stand for it!

So why do you?
Your outward profession of having put on Christ, has as yet to put off Plato from your heart!

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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#93

Post by RickD » Sat Aug 16, 2014 12:32 pm

Zionism:
a worldwide Jewish movement for the establishment and development of the state of Israel.


Can someone please tell me what is so evil about Zionism?
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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#94

Post by Lonewolf » Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:02 pm

RickD wrote:Zionism:
a worldwide Jewish movement for the establishment and development of the state of Israel.

?
At what or who's expense? <~ That is the 'what's bad about it' Rick Dees in the morning.
Your outward profession of having put on Christ, has as yet to put off Plato from your heart!

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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#95

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Sun Aug 17, 2014 5:28 pm

Anti-Zionism is a form of anti-Semitism, as I've posted before. A polite and acceptable form, but bona fide Jew-hatred nonetheless:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... onism.html

I really don't expect the anti-Zionists who have posted on this topic to be influenced by the above link, but - perhaps, by the Grace of God - it may be instructive to those of you with no pre-conceived idea on the subject.

FL :D
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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#96

Post by Gman » Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:49 pm

Lonewolf wrote:G'Man labelled it as ~> Complete Rubbish

To not lend credence to any “historical fact” about Zionism, and how Zionism rules over the State of Israel and over the Palestinian people is the real and “complete rubbish.”

What I’m saying is not antisemitism, but most assuredly anti-Zionist!
Most folks can’t tell the difference, unless they'd like to "educate themselves" on the subject.
Educate us on what? The established of Israel in 1948 was a SECULAR movement started by the UN for the Jewish people who have ALWAYS BEEN indigenous to state of Israel. The UN is not a Zionist movement or entity. It's a conglomeration of nations that could care less about the things of G-d.. Jews were "exiled" to Israel from not only Europe not also various parts of the middle east after their homes and synagogues were taken over or burnt to the ground by demonic people..

If you want to educate yourself, educate yourself on the extremist philosophies of Hamas, ISIS, Hezbollah, the Muslim brotherhood and the other various evil groups that not only wish to kill Jews but any other "peaceful" Arabs as well that oppose them.
Lonewolf wrote:I wonder just how well we are interpreting things and prophesies these days., We looked to the physical return of Israel as a fulfillment of prophesy, but yet, if we read back in time, regarding the destruction and rebuilding of the temple of which Jesus foretold to the Jews, and yet, they did not believe, for they did not “understand.” They laughed and mocked and said, this man is crazy., he’s a looney toon., talking about destroying this temple which we have built our whole “religious” faith upon and has taken how many years upon years to complete? And then He says that He will rebuild it in 3 days., how is that possible? .. But yet it happened, and we all are witness to that, aren't we? We looked to witness the rebirth of Israel ~> so that the bringing back to the land of milk and honey prophesied in scripture would be accomplished, but could that bringing back be “a spiritual one” instead of an “earthly State” ??
Again.. Most Jews could care less about prophecy. The establishment of Israel had nothing to do with prophecy but were given the land as the "correct" owners of it who already had the majority of the populations in their areas. It was simply the logical choice..
Lonewolf wrote:Does it make sense to bring back Israel in a nationhood sense of things to this earth just to have them behave as all the rest of the imperial nations of this world behave? Could they be, in a sense, have become like Babylon themselves? All high and mighty morally, intellectually, scriptural and such, but yet ~> be devoid of Love?
That is baloney.. The Jewish people have no intention of hurting their neighbors and are in fact helping them in NUMEROUS ways..

FACT

"Arabs in Israel have equal voting rights; in fact, it is one of the few places in the Middle East where Arab women may vote. Arabs in 2011 held 14 seats in the 120-seat Knesset. Israeli Arabs have also held various government posts, including one who served as Israel’s ambassador to Finland and the deputy mayor of Tel Aviv. Oscar Abu Razaq was appointed Director General of the Ministry of Interior, the first Arab citizen to become chief executive of a key government ministry. Ariel Sharon’s original cabinet included the first Arab minister, Salah Tarif, a Druze who served as a minister without portfolio. An Arab is also a Supreme Court justice. In October 2005, an Arab professor was named Vice President of Haifa University.

Arabic, like Hebrew, is an official language in Israel. More than 300,000 Arab children attend Israeli schools. At the time of Israel’s founding, there was one Arab high school in the country. Today, there are hundreds of Arab schools. 29

The sole legal distinction between Jewish and Arab citizens of Israel is that the latter are not required to serve in the Israeli army. This is to spare Arab citizens the need to take up arms against their brethren. Nevertheless, Bedouins have served in paratroop units and other Arabs have volunteered for military duty. Compulsory military service is applied to the Druze and Circassian communities at their own request.

Some economic and social gaps between Israeli Jews and Arabs result from the latter not serving in the military. Veterans qualify for many benefits not available to non-veterans. Moreover, the army aids in the socialization process.

On the other hand, Arabs do have an advantage in obtaining some jobs during the years Israelis are in the military. In addition, industries like construction and trucking have come to be dominated by Israeli Arabs.

Although Israeli Arabs have occasionally been involved in terrorist activities, they have generally behaved as loyal citizens. During the 1967, 1973 and 1982 wars, none engaged in any acts of sabotage or disloyalty. Sometimes, in fact, Arabs volunteered to take over civilian functions for reservists. During the Palestinian War that began in September 2000, Israeli Arabs for the first time engaged in widespread protests.

The United States has been independent for 235 years and still has not integrated all of its diverse communities. Even today, nearly half a century after civil rights legislation was adopted, discrimination has not been eradicated. It should not be surprising that Israel has not solved all of its social problems in only 63 years."

Source: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... ights.html
Lonewolf wrote:Could it be that Zionist Jews still think of the Palestinians today ..
~> as they did once of the Gentiles as dogs? And maybe still do?

It is sad sad indeed, that the Jewish People have had to endure so much hate and violence throughout history, before and after Christ., from Assyrians to Persians, to Egyptians and Greeks, to Romans and Christians, to the Spanish Inquisition, Nazi Germany and Stalin’s purge, onto today’s onslaught from fundamental jihadist Islam., but you have to ask, you have to wonder just what exactly are many who represent the Jewish State are all about? Are they representing what we would term “Christian values?” Or is it something else? .. Just because a person looks like us and talks like us, doesn't necessarily mean that they “think” like us, nor do they necessarily wish the same for the world as we do. That's not being anti-Jewish people ~> that's simple questioning and going against what some in power within the Jewish People are working for!
Again.. The nation of Israel is a SECULAR state composed of people who for the most part care less about the things of the Bible, there is only a small portion of religious Jews living there mainly around the city of Jerusalem.... Over a million of the inhabitants of Israel are in fact Muslim Arabs. Arab members are also part of the Israeli Knesset.
Lonewolf wrote:Even here in the United States we question what the hell is Washington doing? What in tarnation is the Ford, the Carter, the Reagan, the Bush Senior, Clinton, Bush Junior or Obama doing? What the hell!? It's all going to the gutter!

Whatever happened to that –so called- second commandment? The one that “commands” to Love our neighbor and do unto them, as we would have done unto us?
If you truly believe that then why are you sending your taxes to our government that in turn spend it on the police force, the Army, or our judicial system?
Lonewolf wrote:Would we send F-16’s and Apache attack helicopters to bomb a “strip” in search for that one target, regardless of whether bombing that strip kills all others around them? Is that really self defense? Is that really in the advancement for peace? Is that really demonstrating Christian values?

I wonder what Christ our LORD and Paul would have to say about that ?? I wonder not too much, because, I already know in my heart that they would not stand for it!

So why do you?
Why don't you protest our government then for bombing innocent civilians during WWII? Was it justified or not?

"A uranium gun-type atomic bomb (Little Boy) was dropped on Hiroshima on August 6, 1945, followed by a plutonium implosion-type bomb (Fat Man) on the city of Nagasaki on August 9. Within the first two to four months of the bombings, the acute effects killed 90,000–166,000 people in Hiroshima and 60,000–80,000 in Nagasaki; roughly half of the deaths in each city occurred on the first day. During the following months, large numbers died from the effect of burns, radiation sickness, and other injuries, compounded by illness. In both cities, most of the dead were civilians, although Hiroshima had a sizeable garrison."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bom ... d_Nagasaki
Last edited by Gman on Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#97

Post by Gman » Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:56 pm

RickD wrote:Zionism:
a worldwide Jewish movement for the establishment and development of the state of Israel.


Can someone please tell me what is so evil about Zionism?
Only good things.. But it will not be birthed by man.. Only Christ.

Micah 4:3 He will judge between many peoples and arbitrate for many nations far away. Then they will hammer their swords into plow-blades and their spears into pruning-knives; nations will not raise swords at each other, and they will no longer learn war.
 
Isaiah 2:4 He will judge between the nations and arbitrate for many peoples. Then they will hammer their swords into plow-blades and their spears into pruning-knives; nations will not raise swords at each other, and they will no longer learn war.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#98

Post by OnceSaved » Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:14 pm

Baloney Gman y[-X :beat: let me beat you with a stick
God Himself does not propose to judge a man until he is dead. So why should you?

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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#99

Post by Silvertusk » Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:17 am

RickD wrote:
Silvertusk wrote:
RickD wrote:
Lonewolf wrote:
1) GOD gave that land to Israel
2) Only God can take it away
3) He says that will never happen (permanently, although there were exiled periods due to Israel's sin)
Philip, it is exactly that ^ ^ way of looking at the conflict that I believe some of you are doing., you are injecting religion, per say, into the conflict, and if that is the case, how then can you hold accountable the muslims for their faith in what their suppodsedly fighting for?

you can't have one side claiming is their god given right, and then tell the other side that their claim from their god is not legit.
Lonewolf,

I haven't really brought up the notion that God gave the land to Israel, so it's theirs. But, are you seriously using the argument that the god of the Koran is on equal grounds with the God of the bible. If what Jehovah says, is equal to what Allah says?
Yahweh not Jehovah Rick.
I'm not following you Silvertusk. What are you saying?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah

http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/ ... or-jehovah

And this:
http://jesusisyhwh.blogspot.com/2012/12 ... h.html?m=1

His true name is Yahweh. Jehovah is just the combination of YHWH and Adonai.

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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#100

Post by RickD » Mon Aug 18, 2014 5:10 am

His true name is Yahweh. Jehovah is just the combination of YHWH and Adonai.
:shock:
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#101

Post by Philip » Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:44 pm

One thing on this thread that I found disconcerting was when it was asserted that Israel did not become a nation again by the hand of God. Wow! Just wow. Here Israel was destroyed as a nation, spread across the globe, for centuries, Hebrew all but forgotten, and then, beyond what anyone but a prophet could predict, she becomes a nation again, in the very same place. Hebrew's usage is rekindled, her borders are restored through the UN and a series of wars. Afterward, Jews have poured into Israel from across the world. Israel stands, surrounded by Muslim countries dedicated to her destruction. By approximately 2009, for the first time since about A.D. 135, there were more Jews in Israel than anywhere else on earth (although, only about 3% less live in the U.S.). ONLY God could have orchestrated this. To believe otherwise is to place far more faith in the ability of any group of men to do this than is credible. What other tiny country stands at the center of world-wide attention and so much controversy, the object of so much hate?

The other thing I found perplexing is the wrongful thinking that God would not work to restore Israel through people who had mere human, self-serving, and sometimes evil, agendas. God uses ALL kinds of situations and people to orchestrate history exactly as He has planned it. He used Cyrus the Great to restore the Babalonian captives back to Israel. Cyrus was a ruthless conquerer of lands and peoples, and yet it is such a man that restored Israel after Nebuchadnezzar's sacking and destruction of the Temple. Not the sort of fellow one might imagine to do the work of God. Of course, He used Nebuchadnezzar to punish Israel. Hitler's devastation of Europe's Jews drove much of the desire for a post-war homeland. Scripture tells us that it is GOD Who puts kings and leaders in their offices. Bible history shows the most unlikely people God has used - not all of them His people. Often, in Scripture, God used one heathen nation to attack another such nation to rid Israel of an enemy. Even though evil people's schemes are their OWN plans and actions, God nonetheless often uses them as tools in His eternal plans. Both the Romans and evil Jewish religious leaders were used of God to bring about His plans for Jesus trial and crucifixion.

Joseph said: "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today."

God doesn't always send or use a Sunday School teacher to accomplish His plans. Some He has used have been extremely evil. But as He is sovereign and all-knowing and all-powerful, He can and does use people both good, bad, believers, unbelievers - it doesn't matter the person or their nature, it depends upon His purposes and desires. Of course, He has most powerfully used those with faith in Him to accomplish His purposes.

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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#102

Post by LostTribesNotLost » Sat Dec 27, 2014 7:07 am

Philip wrote:Some random thoughts I need to get off of my chest about the current conflict between Israel and Hamas:

Clueless people often love to pick the latest media-driven issue to take uneducated sides on, often ignorantly expressing naive views upon. This and they often don't know the history of what has gone down long before.

Well, HAS Israel gone TOO far in it's campaign against Hamas? How many rockets would Mexico fire into Texas or any border state before the U.S. took very serious measures to prevent all current and (hopefully) future attacks? A few? Probably, at most. How many years would the U.S. endure such attacks? YEARS? Please! Is a peaceful, sovereign neighbor supposed to absorb such evil that has been so often aimed at civilians without provocation, and by an enemy dedicated to destroying her?

Let's rewind the tape - not from recent weeks or months, but from JUST 2013: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pa ... rael,_2013
Oh, but JUST 52 rockets and mortar attacks on Israel in 2013, resulting in 54 deaths, you say.


That's strange Phil, I clicked the link to Wikipedia above and did not see anything about 54 Israeli deaths.
In fact, under the "killed" column for the entire year (section on Israeli deaths due to Arab missiles) it says: "Total: 0"
There was only one death during 2013 - an arab death!!! (under sub heading: "Killed" and under the heading: "Retaliation by Israel")

You then said:
Philip wrote:Well, lets rewind the tape back to the year before that (2012) - 2,200 missile attacks! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pa ... rael,_2012
Er, what about 2011?:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pa ... rael,_2011 - over 400 attacks and 62 deaths.
Once again false (according to Wikipedia).
I clicked the link and the Israeli deaths were 3 for the year (while Arab deaths were 40).

I doubt you have made a genuine mistake twice in row.
It would seem that you are proving to be highly dishonest.
Last edited by LostTribesNotLost on Sat Dec 27, 2014 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#103

Post by RickD » Sat Dec 27, 2014 7:25 am

Losttribes,

It's Wikipedia. People can change things on the site.
Missile totals are taken from the ISA summaries, deaths and injuries from the text. (If you change the text, please adjust the totals.)
Clicking on the link now, doesn't guarantee you'll be reading the same info that was on the link when Philip posted it.
John 5:24
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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#104

Post by LostTribesNotLost » Sat Dec 27, 2014 9:47 am

Fair enough, maybe I was a little overly harsh as I don't have full proof that he posted the opposite to what Wikipedia said - at the exact time he posted it.

The only way you can rely on Wikipedia for anything, is by looking at the sources that it uses to back what it says at that specific time you quote from them.
Sources like "Monthly Summary – January 2013". Shabak.gov.il. (the Israeli governments website) that are currently being used in the article can only gaurantee that the numbers they use for Israeli deaths are not below what they should be and the numbers for Arab deaths are not above what they should be.
International organisations are better suited for non-skewed statistics.

However, what I posted still discredits what he was trying to prove in his thread and also shows how unreliable Wikipedia can be on political issues, especially the Middle East conflict.

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