Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

Discussions about politics and goings on around the world. (Please keep discussions civil!)
User avatar
neo-x
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3560
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:13 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 228 times
Been liked: 106 times
Contact:

Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#46

Post by neo-x » Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:53 am

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
neo-x wrote:Do you realize that 70% of the casualties are so far civs?
I thought it was much higher, actually.
neo-x wrote:You think the right to self-defense overrides international humanitarian laws? it doesn't. Both sides are abusing it. I can't accept much from Hamas but I expected that Israel would not drop down to their level.
By electing terrorists to government, the people of Gaza have brought this war on themselves. Gaza and the so-called ''West Bank'' could both have strong economies and enjoy all the benefits of living next to a regional powerhouse. Instead, they have chosen to live in hatred and contempt of Israel. Israel withdrew its settlements from Gaza under Ariel Sharon; Israel did what the international community asked for: it exchanged land for peace. Did Israel get peace? no! it got daily rocket lauches into its territory from terrorist-controlled Gaza.

The best thing Gazans can do for themselves would be to remove Hamas from leadership and to execute/prosecute its members. (Egypt did this with the Muslim Brotherhood and it returned that country to a semblance of stability.)

FL :)
Agreed but that still is no justification to kill civs all the same. Civs don't always have the power to remove governments. Take my country for example, we don't have the power yet to dispose of our govt.

And the same is true in Gaza, this is not a kill license for Israel to shoot innocent civs. To you Hamas may be terrorist for them its the only group which fights their enemies. The same like Taliban were america's golden eyed boys for decades. For Pal's the terrorist is Israel.

And even if a people have elected a wrong govt, that does not mean the people are the wrong govt. or terrorist and therefore should be killed in all fairness.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

User avatar
Byblos
Old School
Posts: 6028
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:21 pm
Christian: Yes
Location: NY
Has liked: 100 times
Been liked: 143 times

Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#47

Post by Byblos » Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:12 am

neo-x wrote:Agreed but that still is no justification to kill civs all the same. Civs don't always have the power to remove governments. Take my country for example, we don't have the power yet to dispose of our govt.

And the same is true in Gaza, this is not a kill license for Israel to shoot innocent civs. To you Hamas may be terrorist for them its the only group which fights their enemies. The same like Taliban were america's golden eyed boys for decades. For Pal's the terrorist is Israel.

And even if a people have elected a wrong govt, that does not mean the people are the wrong govt. or terrorist and therefore should be killed in all fairness.
It is unfortunate but utterly unavoidable. I've lived it first hand what they do (what the PLO did in my country). They will not hesitate one iota to stack missile launchers and fighters in hospitals and mosques right behind women and children. And when civilians die they will parade their bodies around for maximum media effects. That's what they do, that's their MO. There is a point to be made about civilians electing them but then again what choice did civilians have, really. It is always civilians who pay the biggest price but Israel has no other choice but to bring the fight to the doorstep of those hell-bent on its destruction, no matter the cost.

So long as Hamas is in control in Gaza and so long as they not only refuse to acknowledge Israel but are sworn to its annihilation, Israel will be justified in protecting itself and its citizens. Grow the hell up already (Hamas, that is), acknowledge a 2-state solution living side-by-side, make some land concessions (both sides) and end this conflict once and for all. Do you doubt for a second Israel is not prepared to do that? Are you (in general) delusional enough to think Hamas is prepared to do that? Never in a million years.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

User avatar
Gman
Old School
Posts: 6081
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 10:36 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Northern California
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time

Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#48

Post by Gman » Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:27 am

neo-x wrote:
RickD wrote:
RickD wrote:
I think we all have acknowledged that civilians that are human shields, are getting killed by Israel. But, are you saying Israel is targeting civilians?
Neo wrote:
Yes they are, its quite obvious now.
Please post evidence of Israel targeting civilians. This is a very strong accusation.
And a good one too. They are targeting civilians. That is the reason civilians are dying. One example...did you not read the naval warship attacks on an unarmed beach? It is up there in my previous posts.

Also, with regards to previous reply to you, do you then agree with me that armies tend to do war crimes, almost in every war?
This is simply a lie.... As I've stated before many times the IDF will target a building only to find numerous bombs and other explosives in the building that also get detonated. When this happens, these explosions go everywhere and sometimes also effect other buildings where civilian populations perhaps may live.. Israel has absolutely no intentions of hurting these civilians and goes through GREAT lengths to prevent such catastrophes, including numerous warnings before striking, but they are not perfect either (no one is). It should be understood however that Israel DID NOT start this war nor does it want this war, it only wants to remain in peace with it's neighbors.

Hamas has only one goal in mind.. Kill as many Jews and you can INCLUDING killing any Arabs that also are apart of them. Israel is also composed of numerous Muslim Arabs. Hamas is also targeting these people as well..
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

Lonewolf
Valued Member
Posts: 383
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2014 4:12 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Southern California
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time

Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#49

Post by Lonewolf » Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:10 pm

Gman wrote:
neo-x wrote:
RickD wrote:
RickD wrote:
I think we all have acknowledged that civilians that are human shields, are getting killed by Israel. But, are you saying Israel is targeting civilians?
Neo wrote:
Yes they are, its quite obvious now.
Please post evidence of Israel targeting civilians. This is a very strong accusation.
And a good one too. They are targeting civilians. That is the reason civilians are dying. One example...did you not read the naval warship attacks on an unarmed beach? It is up there in my previous posts.

Also, with regards to previous reply to you, do you then agree with me that armies tend to do war crimes, almost in every war?
This is simply a lie.... As I've stated before many times the IDF will target a building only to find numerous bombs and other explosives in the building that also get detonated. When this happens, these explosions go everywhere and sometimes also effect other buildings where civilian populations perhaps may live.. Israel has absolutely no intentions of hurting these civilians and goes through GREAT lengths to prevent such catastrophes, including numerous warnings before striking, but they are not perfect either (no one is). It should be understood however that Israel DID NOT start this war nor does it want this war, it only wants to remain in peace with it's neighbors.

Hamas has only one goal in mind.. Kill as many Jews and you can INCLUDING killing any Arabs that also are apart of them. Israel is also composed of numerous Muslim Arabs. Hamas is also targeting these people as well..

For those of you who continue to close your eyes at what Israel practices in terms of "targetting civilians," listed below are just a few quotes over the years in regards to Israel's Final solution concerning the Palestinian people., the quotes are all from Israeli Prime Ministers, and if all those Prime Ministers have acted on such speech, what more can you expect from all those who put them in office?

“It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonization or Jewish state without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands.”
Ariel Sharon, former Likud Party Prime Minister of Israel, November 1998.

“We must expel Arabs and take their place.”
David Ben Gurion, former Labor Party Prime Minister of Israel, October 1937.

“There is no such thing as a Palestinian people. It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn’t exist.”
Golda Meir, former Labor Party prime Minister of Israel, October 1961.

“Israel will create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza strip and the West bank to Jordan.”
Yitzak Rabin, former Labor Party Prime Minister of Israel, New York Times 1983

“You don’t simply bundle people onto trucks and drive them away. I prefer to advocate a positive policy, to create, in effect, a condition that in a positive way will induce people to leave.”
Ariel Sharon, August 1988

“The partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And forever.”
Menachem Begin, former Likud Party Prime Minister of Israel, June 1982

“I want nobody to sleep at night in Gaza.”
Ehud Olmert, former Likud Party Prime Minister of Israel, July 2, 2006.
Your outward profession of having put on Christ, has as yet to put off Plato from your heart!

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 21724
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen
Has liked: 206 times
Been liked: 1120 times

Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#50

Post by RickD » Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:13 pm

Lonewolf wrote:
For those of you who continue to close your eyes at what Israel practices in terms of "targetting civilians," listed below are just a few quotes over the years in regards to Israel's Final solution concerning the Palestinian people., the quotes are all from Israeli Prime Ministers, and if all those Prime Ministers have acted on such speech, what more can you expect from all those who put them in office?
FINAL SOLUTION?!?!?!?!?

The Final Solution was the Nazi plan to exterminate the Jews.

You're equating what's going on now in Israel, with nazis exterminating Jews?

You'd better be careful.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

User avatar
Furstentum Liechtenstein
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3295
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 6:55 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: It's Complicated
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Location: Lower Canuckistan
Has liked: 110 times
Been liked: 34 times

Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#51

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:44 pm

neo-x wrote:Agreed but that still is no justification to kill civs all the same. Civs don't always have the power to remove governments.
You must be living in Shangri-la...there is no such thing as a war that spares civilians! As an American General (whose name I forget) said, ''War is hell.'' War is hell for all involved and that hell is what makes normal & sane people want to avoid it. The population of Gaza knowingly elected a terrorist entity that refuses to recognize the existence of the Jewish state, and they are now suffering the consequences of their choice. Of course, they can't remove their government but they should have known that beforehand. Had they elected Fatah - the party of theives and hypocrites that govern the ''West Bank'', at least they would have the possibility of living under better conditions.

People like Ban Ki-moon, John Kerry and others who push for repeated ceasefires are actually exacerbating the situation. When a hostile entity threatens a peaceful nation, that entity must be destroyed. When Osama bin Laden and his group attacked the USA, they were hunted down. When the Muslim Brotherhood took over Egypt, they were eliminated. When Carthage attacked Rome, it was flattened. Such is the way things must be: a cancer is excised from a body, it is not negotiated with.

I was in New York City a while ago and I kept seeing a remarkable sight: Muslim men in djellabas would rush to a clear place on the sidewalk, spread out a little prayer mat, crouch down and say their prayers. In public! in full view of the throngs of people walking by! I don't doubt their sincerity but you and I both know that God doesn't listen to these poor guys. Now, I don't doubt your sincerity insofar as civilian deaths are concerned, but I know that you are unable to identify the responsible party of the present conflict, and that you are naïve in your understanding of the hell that is war.

FL y~o)
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

+ + +

If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.

+ + +

Lonewolf
Valued Member
Posts: 383
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2014 4:12 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Southern California
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time

Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#52

Post by Lonewolf » Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:58 pm

RickD wrote:
Lonewolf wrote:
For those of you who continue to close your eyes at what Israel practices in terms of "targetting civilians," listed below are just a few quotes over the years in regards to Israel's Final solution concerning the Palestinian people., the quotes are all from Israeli Prime Ministers, and if all those Prime Ministers have acted on such speech, what more can you expect from all those who put them in office?
FINAL SOLUTION?!?!?!?!?

The Final Solution was the Nazi plan to exterminate the Jews.

You're equating what's going on now in Israel, with nazis exterminating Jews?

You'd better be careful.
Why do I need to be careful? They may not be on the scale of the Nazi's, but they are practictioners of their own stated policies, right!?
Your outward profession of having put on Christ, has as yet to put off Plato from your heart!

User avatar
Gman
Old School
Posts: 6081
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 10:36 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Northern California
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time

Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#53

Post by Gman » Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:00 pm

Lonewolf wrote:For those of you who continue to close your eyes at what Israel practices in terms of "targetting civilians," listed below are just a few quotes over the years in regards to Israel's Final solution concerning the Palestinian people., the quotes are all from Israeli Prime Ministers, and if all those Prime Ministers have acted on such speech, what more can you expect from all those who put them in office?

“It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonization or Jewish state without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands.”
Ariel Sharon, former Likud Party Prime Minister of Israel, November 1998.

“We must expel Arabs and take their place.”
David Ben Gurion, former Labor Party Prime Minister of Israel, October 1937.

“There is no such thing as a Palestinian people. It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn’t exist.”
Golda Meir, former Labor Party prime Minister of Israel, October 1961.

“Israel will create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza strip and the West bank to Jordan.”
Yitzak Rabin, former Labor Party Prime Minister of Israel, New York Times 1983

“You don’t simply bundle people onto trucks and drive them away. I prefer to advocate a positive policy, to create, in effect, a condition that in a positive way will induce people to leave.”
Ariel Sharon, August 1988

“The partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And forever.”
Menachem Begin, former Likud Party Prime Minister of Israel, June 1982

“I want nobody to sleep at night in Gaza.”
Ehud Olmert, former Likud Party Prime Minister of Israel, July 2, 2006.

Actually the Israeli Prime Ministers said numerous things. But how did they actually carry it out? In hindsight however they probably should have pushed these extremists out. In 2005, Israel pulled the Jewish people OUT of Gaza and paid a "heavy" price for it.. Hamas does not want peace with Israel but calls for the complete elimination of the Jews as the charter states on Article 15. As of today, they still won't change it..

Article Fifteen: The Jihad for the Liberation of Palestine is an Individual Obligation When our enemies usurp some Islamic lands, Jihad becomes a duty binding on all Muslims. In order to face the usurpation of Palestine by the Jews, we have no escape from raising the banner of Jihad. This would require the propagation of Islamic consciousness among the masses on all local, Arab and Islamic levels.

The evils of the Koran and hadiths also calls for the extermination of all Jews, the suppression of women and their rights, and the elimination of any other religion whether they are Christians, Buddhist, Hindu or the likes.

Also Israel didn't exactly push Arab out of Israel. In fact it was the Arabs mostly who drove them out of Israel.

According to Mahmoud Abbas:

"The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, they abandoned them, forced them to emigrate and to leave their homeland, and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live in Eastern Europe, as if we were condemned to change places with them: they moved out of their ghettos and we occupied similar ones."

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Abbas

Leaders like Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said, who declared:

"We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down."

In his memoirs, Haled al Azm, the Syrian Prime Minister in 1948/49, also admitted the Arab role in persuading the refugees to leave:

"Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return."

According to the Israeli declaration of 1948, Israelis wanted the Arabs to become a part of Israel, not separate.

"WE APPEAL - in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months - to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions."

WE EXTEND our hand to all neighbouring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and good neighbourliness, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land. The State of Israel is prepared to do its share in a common effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East.

Source: http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace%20Proce ... f%20Israel
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

User avatar
melanie
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1411
Joined: Sat May 10, 2014 3:18 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Has liked: 96 times
Been liked: 209 times

Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#54

Post by melanie » Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:36 pm

Thankyou LW,
I last night was posting a lengthy (yeah surprise, surprise :ewink: ) account of what is really occurring in Palestine, after finishing it, I was just about to submit and my ipad crashed and I lost everything y#-o. The quotes you have just listed were part of what I was writing. This is my second attempt, I will be saving as I go this time. I apologise it's long, very long, but It had to be to put across what I feel needs to be said and shown in its entirety, you may not agree but please take the time to read and watch the links, we never know enough that maybe something new can be brought to our attention.

I am truly amazed that apparently in this conflict we have to pick a side. Which evil should I choose? Or perhaps there is a good guy and a bad guy? With is of course Israel as the good guy. We have been told in previous posts that it is the Christian thing to do to side with Israel. I think not. There is no good guy in this situation just two evils, one just more mightier than the other, not more evil, just more capable in their hatred to perpetrate death and violence. I do not need anybody's injector to tell me what opinion I should hold based on my Christianity, I am intelligent, impartial, efficiently well read enough to make up my own mind, if I do not hold your view, then apparently I am ignorant, dubious and naive. I think whilst the finger of ignorance is being pointed around by some here that perhaps they should turn their finger a little more inward than outward.

Confusion over this land has been going on for many a year. After the fall of the Ottoman Empire the British took control. To the Arab population who lived there, it was their homeland and had been promised to them by the Allies for help in defeating the Turks by the McMahon Agreement.
The same area of land had also been promised to the Jews in the Balfour Declaration
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/foreignpolicy ... ation.aspx
This agreement was made by Lord Rothschild, from the same Rothschild dynasty that owns your news broadcasters, so rest assured that no doubt your getting an unbiased, real picture from the news you watch, after all the zionist family in 1917 first made the agreement with the Brits to settle in Palestine, and now they dictate what you view on your nightly news. But it's the news so it must be true, right???
After this declaration was made many Jews started migrating to palestine.
The main problem after the war for Palestine was perceived beliefs. The Arabs had joined the Allies to fight the Turks during the war and convinced themselves that they were due to be given what they believed was their land once the war was over. Clashing with this was the belief among all Jews that the Balfour Declaration had promised them the same piece of territory.
In August 1929, relations between the Jews and Arabs in Palestine broke down. The focal point of this discontent was Jerusalem. The primary cause of trouble was the increased influx of Jews who had emigrated to Palestine. The number of Jews in the region had doubled in ten years
The city of Jerusalem also had major religious significance for both Arabs and Jews and over 200 deaths occurred in just four days in August (23rd to the 26th).
The violence that occurred in August 1929 did not deter Jews from going to Palestine. In 1931, 4,075 Jews emigrated to the region. In 1935, it was 61,854.
In May 1936, more violence occurred and the British had to restore law and order using the military. Thirty four soldiers were killed in the process. The violence did not stop. In fact, it became worse after November 1937.
For the Arabs there were two enemies – the Jews and the British authorities based in Palestine via their League mandate.
For the Jews there were also two enemies – the Arabs and the British.
Therefore, the British were pushed into the middle of a conflict they had seemingly little control over as the two other sides involved were so driven by their own beliefs. In an effort to end the violence, the British put a quota on the number of Jews who could enter Palestine in any one year. They hoped to appease the Arabs in the region but also keep on side with the Jews by recognising that Jews could enter Palestine – but in restricted numbers. They failed on both counts.
Both the Jews and the Arabs continued to attack the British. The Arabs attacked because they believed that the British had failed to keep their word after 1918 and because they believed that the British were not keeping the quotas agreed to as they did little to stop illegal landings into Palestine made by the Jews.
The Jews attacked the British authorities in Palestine simply because of the quota which they believed was grossly unfair. The British had also imposed restrictions on the amount of land Jews could buy in Palestine.

An uneasy truce occurred during the war when hostilities seemed to cease. This truce, however, was only temporary.
However, neither group got what they were looking for. The British still controlled Palestine. As a result, the Jews used terrorist tactics to push their claim for the area. Groups such as the Stern Gang and Irgun Zvai Leumi attacked the British that culminated in the destruction of the British military headquarters in Palestine – the King David Hotel. Seemingly unable to influence events in Palestine, the British looked for a way out.
In 1947, the newly formed United Nations accepted the idea to partition Palestine into a zone for the Jews (Israel) and a zone for the Arabs (Palestine). With this United Nations proposal, the British withdrew from the region on May 14th 1948.
In the months before Israel was declared, the Israelis had driven 300,000 non-Jews off their land. In the months before Israel was declared, the Israelis had seized land beyond the proposed Jewish State. Now it's then that Israel was attacked by its neighbors, in May 1948. Israel had already taken an region well beyond the area of the original Jewish State that was proposed by the UN.
In 1967 Israel attacked and took over the remaining part of Palestine, within 6 days Israel had won a decisive land war, taking over the Gaza Strip and Senai peninsula form Egypt, the West Bank and east Jerusalem from Jordan and the goland heights from Syria. The palestinian people had already lost so much of their land now what little they had was now occupied by Israel.
What is like to live under occupation? Have your every move restricted, someone telling where you can and cannot go and what times you can do so, have water and food supplies restricted so that the majority of people are living in poverty, have your civil liberties and basic human violated? Not too nice at all I would imagine, it would make me angry, fed up, frustrated and looking for a way out, for a better future.
Pre Hamas the palestinian people were already living under occupation, Hamas isn't the reason for the brutality and security measures of Israel, it's the result of a people living in sub-human condition. I do not support Hamas, they are extremist and violent and dangerous, but I understand why the Palestinian people in their desperation made such a poor choice in the 2006 election. Look at the statistics in 2000-2006 leading up to the election, palestinians were dying at the hands of the Israelis, yes there were rockets being fired from Palestine, not only from Hamas, there are quite a few smaller extremist groups operating within this society, but they were in effect throwing stones compared to the Israeli bombs against an occupation that was subjecting them to intimidation and no quality of life. Back someone up against a wall and they will make poor choices.
This is not about Muslim vs Jews and the west, this is not about religion it's about land, it always has been. The Israeli want it and the Palestinians are trying to protect the very little they have left. Do some Palestinians want Israel gone, absolutely, as much as the Israelis want the palestinians gone, they just don't have as much rocket power to make it happen.
There is a mutual hatred of each other, with those in the middle on both sides legitimately wanting peace. Both sides have been brainwashed by their governments, we all the time hear that the Palestinians are the haters and the Israelis just want peace, really?? Did your news tell you that?
2014
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x21ivt ... arabs_news
2012
http://storyful.com/stories/23608
2011 click on the first picture
http://www.en.justjlm.org/487
How about a story of a bus crash that killed 9 palestinian children just the result of an accident, but the israeli response on FB says it all, the original FB page had the racist remarks removed, but not before some of it was captured and screen saved
http://abirkopty.wordpress.com/2012/02/ ... -children/

But the Israelis are the peace makers right, they are even so kind as to warn the palestinian people before they bomb, we have heard of 'roof tapping' to warn them, it's just the evil Hamas who keeps them their as shields, tells them not to leave. I thought about this for a little while, saw there was legitimate claim that Hamas was indeed saying this, but still couldn't see how so many children were still dying as a result. Some palestinian people may stay, but most mothers would do anything, I don't care what religion or nationality you are, to save your children , most would never happily sit their and let their children get blown to bits. There had to be something more to this story, I couldn't quite get my head around it, then after some digging, and it took digging, you will not see this on your nightly news or in your newspapers, I found out why.
You wanna know what their warning is, 57 seconds, a mortar bomb is dropped then after 57 seconds the real bomb, that's ages right? to get children, a whole family, the elderly, out in enough time, some have stairs, they might in their haste want to grab some photos, fall in fright, lose focus in the chaos, they have plenty of time to get to safety all 57 seconds of it!!!
http://www.sickchirpse.com/israel-57-second-warning/

One one to get a real view is to look at all sides, left, right and inbetween. Look at the accounts of palestinian Christians who are living under occupation just like the palestinian Muslims. This story is heartbreaking and uplifting at the same time. My heart and prayers go out to this family, holding onto peace under such circumstances;
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27883685

There is no Godly side to choose, Israel are not the good guys, neither are Hamas. There is no sign of God to be found in any of this, just warmongering on both sides. I will not pick a side, I choose no side but I pray for the palestinian people and that God may restore some sense of righteousness to Hamas and the Israeli government, so that the suffering may end.
The people of this world need the truth, it is our responsibility as those Christians who are truly children of God to provide what the world lacks. Our task is to salt the earth. We salt it with the riches of the kingdom of God. We are called to be merciful, compassionate, holy, righteous, truthful, honest, faithful, and just. That's the side I choose.

User avatar
melanie
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1411
Joined: Sat May 10, 2014 3:18 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Has liked: 96 times
Been liked: 209 times

Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#55

Post by melanie » Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:55 pm

Gman wrote:
Lonewolf wrote:For those of you who continue to close your eyes at what Israel practices in terms of "targetting civilians," listed below are just a few quotes over the years in regards to Israel's Final solution concerning the Palestinian people., the quotes are all from Israeli Prime Ministers, and if all those Prime Ministers have acted on such speech, what more can you expect from all those who put them in office?

“It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonization or Jewish state without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands.”
Ariel Sharon, former Likud Party Prime Minister of Israel, November 1998.

“We must expel Arabs and take their place.”
David Ben Gurion, former Labor Party Prime Minister of Israel, October 1937.

“There is no such thing as a Palestinian people. It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn’t exist.”
Golda Meir, former Labor Party prime Minister of Israel, October 1961.

“Israel will create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza strip and the West bank to Jordan.”
Yitzak Rabin, former Labor Party Prime Minister of Israel, New York Times 1983

“You don’t simply bundle people onto trucks and drive them away. I prefer to advocate a positive policy, to create, in effect, a condition that in a positive way will induce people to leave.”
Ariel Sharon, August 1988

“The partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And forever.”
Menachem Begin, former Likud Party Prime Minister of Israel, June 1982

“I want nobody to sleep at night in Gaza.”
Ehud Olmert, former Likud Party Prime Minister of Israel, July 2, 2006.

Actually the Israeli Prime Ministers said numerous things. But how did they actually carry it out? In hindsight however they probably should have pushed these extremists out. In 2005, Israel pulled the Jewish people OUT of Gaza and paid a "heavy" price for it.. Hamas does not want peace with Israel but calls for the complete elimination of the Jews as the charter states on Article 15. As of today, they still won't change it..

Article Fifteen: The Jihad for the Liberation of Palestine is an Individual Obligation When our enemies usurp some Islamic lands, Jihad becomes a duty binding on all Muslims. In order to face the usurpation of Palestine by the Jews, we have no escape from raising the banner of Jihad. This would require the propagation of Islamic consciousness among the masses on all local, Arab and Islamic levels.

The evils of the Koran and hadiths also calls for the extermination of all Jews, the suppression of women and their rights, and the elimination of any other religion whether they are Christians, Buddhist, Hindu or the likes.

Also Israel didn't exactly push Arab out of Israel. In fact it was the Arabs mostly who drove them out of Israel.

According to Mahmoud Abbas:

"The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, they abandoned them, forced them to emigrate and to leave their homeland, and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live in Eastern Europe, as if we were condemned to change places with them: they moved out of their ghettos and we occupied similar ones."

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Abbas

Leaders like Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said, who declared:

"We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down."

In his memoirs, Haled al Azm, the Syrian Prime Minister in 1948/49, also admitted the Arab role in persuading the refugees to leave:

"Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return."

According to the Israeli declaration of 1948, Israelis wanted the Arabs to become a part of Israel, not separate.

"WE APPEAL - in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months - to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions."

WE EXTEND our hand to all neighbouring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and good neighbourliness, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land. The State of Israel is prepared to do its share in a common effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East.

Source: http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace%20Proce ... f%20Israel
I am quite aware of the Balfour declaration and I'm quite aware that part of the Brits requirements were that it was carried out peacefully, Lord Rothschild agreed to this, naturally, then since occupying the land have breached not only this agreement but international law and the geneva convention.

User avatar
Gman
Old School
Posts: 6081
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 10:36 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Northern California
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time

Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#56

Post by Gman » Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:02 pm

melanie wrote: There is no Godly side to choose, Israel are not the good guys, neither are Hamas. There is no sign of God to be found in any of this, just warmongering on both sides. I will not pick a side, I choose no side but I pray for the palestinian people and that God may restore some sense of righteousness to Hamas and the Israeli government, so that the suffering may end.
The people of this world need the truth, it is our responsibility as those Christians who are truly children of God to provide what the world lacks. Our task is to salt the earth. We salt it with the riches of the kingdom of God. We are called to be merciful, compassionate, holy, righteous, truthful, honest, faithful, and just. That's the side I choose.
Actually your claims are not only unjust, they are also un-biblical. According to the Bible, G-d has not rejected the Jewish people.

Romans 11:1-2
“In that case, I say, isn’t it that God has repudiated his people?” Heaven forbid! For I myself am a son of Isra’el, from the seed of Avraham, of the tribe of Binyamin. 2 God has not repudiated his people, whom he chose in advance. Or don’t you know what the Tanakh says about Eliyahu? He pleads with God against Isra’el,

Romans 11:28-29
With respect to the Good News they are hated for your sake. But with respect to being chosen they are loved for the Patriarchs’ sake, 29 for God’s free gifts and his calling are irrevocable.

Also according to Paul, he pleads to G-d that he would actually become cursed and cut off from Messiah for the Jewish people. If Paul was willing to do that for them, what do you propose we should do for the Jewish people?

Romans 9:3 that I could wish myself actually under God’s curse and separated from the Messiah, if it would help my brothers, my own flesh and blood, 4 the people of Isra’el! They were made God’s children, the Sh’khinah has been with them, the covenants are theirs, likewise the giving of the Torah, the Temple service and the promises; 5 the Patriarchs are theirs; and from them, as far as his physical descent is concerned, came the Messiah, who is over all. Praised be Adonai for ever! Amen

There is a mountain of Biblical evidence that G-d desires to establish Jerusalem as His praise on the earth Isaiah 62:1, Isaiah 62:7, 1 Chronicles 23:25, Isaiah 49:14-16, Deuteronomy 11:12, Zechariah 1:16, Micah 4:2, 1 Kings 9:3, Psalm 132:13-14, Acts 15:16-18. Sorry, no other countries listed.

This land covenant is to be an everlasting covenant for the Jewish people...

Genesis 17:7-8, Genesis 26:2-5, Genesis 28:13-15, Deuteronomy 4:40, 1 Chronicles 16:15-18, Jeremiah 31:35-37, Joshua 14:9, Psalm 105:9-11, Psalm 89:27-29, Psalm 105:8-11 and many more..

So where is Biblical evidence for these claims?
Last edited by Gman on Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

User avatar
melanie
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1411
Joined: Sat May 10, 2014 3:18 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Has liked: 96 times
Been liked: 209 times

Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#57

Post by melanie » Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:11 pm

I do not have time right now to go into this in detail, but I will...
For now I think it disgusting that you or anybody would use the word of God, to justify the death, destruction and tyranny of an entire race of people.
Your words just spoke for themselves, you speak of peace then justify why the land supposedly belongs to the the Israelis, you don't want peace, you just want the land.
I do not say the Jewish people because there are many Jews against this occupation and zionist movement.

User avatar
Gman
Old School
Posts: 6081
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 10:36 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Northern California
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time

Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#58

Post by Gman » Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:15 pm

melanie wrote:I do not have time right now to go into this in detail, but I will...
For now I think it disgusting that you or anybody would use the word of God, to justify the death, destruction and tyranny of an entire race of people.
Your words just spoke for themselves, you speak of peace then justify why the land supposedly belongs to the the Israelis, you don't want peace, you just want the land.
I do not say the Jewish people because there are many Jews against this occupation and zionist movement.
Really?? And what god do you worship that seeks to kill Jews and the lives of women, stealing their rights and subjecting them to the evils of sharia law??
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

User avatar
melanie
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1411
Joined: Sat May 10, 2014 3:18 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Has liked: 96 times
Been liked: 209 times

Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#59

Post by melanie » Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:29 pm

I'm not speaking about the evils of the Muslim religion. That is a whole other thread topic, cleverly used by some at times to dismantle the real issues here, I am speaking of the evils of another kind, the israeli governments occupation and intimidation of the Palestinian people.
Speak of the facts, figures, history, real accounts of what's going on, dispute the fact, question history don't use that propaganda rubbish on me, it won't work.

User avatar
Gman
Old School
Posts: 6081
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 10:36 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Northern California
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time

Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#60

Post by Gman » Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:48 pm

melanie wrote:I'm not speaking about the evils of the Muslim religion. That is a whole other thread topic, cleverly used by some at times to dismantle the real issues here, I am speaking of the evils of another kind, the israeli governments occupation and intimidation of the Palestinian people.
Speak of the facts, figures, history, real accounts of what's going on, dispute the fact, question history don't use that propaganda rubbish on me, it won't work.
So you want to put the Arabs under the evils of sharia law?? I'm not clear on whose side you are on but it certainly isn't biblical nor loving... Also did you know that the Arabs have more rights in Israel than they do in an Islamic country? Why are you against the Arabs??

FACT

"Arabs in Israel have equal voting rights; in fact, it is one of the few places in the Middle East where Arab women may vote. Arabs in 2011 held 14 seats in the 120-seat Knesset. Israeli Arabs have also held various government posts, including one who served as Israel’s ambassador to Finland and the deputy mayor of Tel Aviv. Oscar Abu Razaq was appointed Director General of the Ministry of Interior, the first Arab citizen to become chief executive of a key government ministry. Ariel Sharon’s original cabinet included the first Arab minister, Salah Tarif, a Druze who served as a minister without portfolio. An Arab is also a Supreme Court justice. In October 2005, an Arab professor was named Vice President of Haifa University.

Arabic, like Hebrew, is an official language in Israel. More than 300,000 Arab children attend Israeli schools. At the time of Israel’s founding, there was one Arab high school in the country. Today, there are hundreds of Arab schools. 29

The sole legal distinction between Jewish and Arab citizens of Israel is that the latter are not required to serve in the Israeli army. This is to spare Arab citizens the need to take up arms against their brethren. Nevertheless, Bedouins have served in paratroop units and other Arabs have volunteered for military duty. Compulsory military service is applied to the Druze and Circassian communities at their own request.

Some economic and social gaps between Israeli Jews and Arabs result from the latter not serving in the military. Veterans qualify for many benefits not available to non-veterans. Moreover, the army aids in the socialization process.

On the other hand, Arabs do have an advantage in obtaining some jobs during the years Israelis are in the military. In addition, industries like construction and trucking have come to be dominated by Israeli Arabs.

Although Israeli Arabs have occasionally been involved in terrorist activities, they have generally behaved as loyal citizens. During the 1967, 1973 and 1982 wars, none engaged in any acts of sabotage or disloyalty. Sometimes, in fact, Arabs volunteered to take over civilian functions for reservists. During the Palestinian War that began in September 2000, Israeli Arabs for the first time engaged in widespread protests.

The United States has been independent for 235 years and still has not integrated all of its diverse communities. Even today, nearly half a century after civil rights legislation was adopted, discrimination has not been eradicated. It should not be surprising that Israel has not solved all of its social problems in only 63 years."

Source: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... ights.html
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

Post Reply