Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#31

Post by 1over137 » Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:54 pm

I looked little bit on history of the blockade and Hamas. I was interested what was first, blockade or Hamas, and it seems that blockade was a response to Hamas formation and deeds.
Correct me if I am wrong, please.
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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#32

Post by RickD » Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:24 pm

Neo wrote:
Except Israel isn't hammering Hamas, its also targeting civilins, whether it likes it or not.
I think we all have acknowledged that civilians that are human shields, are getting killed by Israel. But, are you saying Israel is targeting civilians?
I mean killing hundreds of children, nothing justifies it as right imo. Both sides have blood on their hands, innocent blood.
When Israel is attacked by missiles fired from areas where civilians are used as shields, what would be a better option for Israel to take? Maybe just don't strike back?

Look, none of us like the fact that civilians are getting killed. But we need to place the blame where it belongs. On those cowards hiding behind civilians.
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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#33

Post by Lonewolf » Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:26 pm

1) GOD gave that land to Israel
2) Only God can take it away
3) He says that will never happen (permanently, although there were exiled periods due to Israel's sin)
Philip, it is exactly that ^ ^ way of looking at the conflict that I believe some of you are doing., you are injecting religion, per say, into the conflict, and if that is the case, how then can you hold accountable the muslims for their faith in what their suppodsedly fighting for?

you can't have one side claiming is their god given right, and then tell the other side that their claim from their god is not legit.
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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#34

Post by RickD » Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:37 pm

Lonewolf wrote:
1) GOD gave that land to Israel
2) Only God can take it away
3) He says that will never happen (permanently, although there were exiled periods due to Israel's sin)
Philip, it is exactly that ^ ^ way of looking at the conflict that I believe some of you are doing., you are injecting religion, per say, into the conflict, and if that is the case, how then can you hold accountable the muslims for their faith in what their suppodsedly fighting for?

you can't have one side claiming is their god given right, and then tell the other side that their claim from their god is not legit.
Lonewolf,

I haven't really brought up the notion that God gave the land to Israel, so it's theirs. But, are you seriously using the argument that the god of the Koran is on equal grounds with the God of the bible. If what Jehovah says, is equal to what Allah says?
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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#35

Post by Lonewolf » Mon Aug 11, 2014 4:34 pm

1over137 wrote:I looked little bit on history of the blockade and Hamas. I was interested what was first, blockade or Hamas, and it seems that blockade was a response to Hamas formation and deeds.
Correct me if I am wrong, please.
The Gaza Strip, sandwiched between Israel and Egypt, has been a recurring flashpoint in the Israel-Palestinian conflict for years.

Israel occupied Gaza in the 1967 Middle East war and only pulled its troops and settlers out in 2005. Israel considered this the end of the occupation, but it still exercises control over most of Gaza's borders, waters and airspace. Egypt controls Gaza's southern border.

Israel has imposed tight restrictions on the movement of goods and people in and out of the Gaza Strip, measures it says are vital for its own security.

However, Palestinians in Gaza feel confined and are suffering socio-economic hardship. The dominant Islamist Palestinian movement Hamas and other militant groups say the restrictions are intolerable.
Last edited by Lonewolf on Mon Aug 11, 2014 4:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#36

Post by Lonewolf » Mon Aug 11, 2014 4:37 pm

RickD wrote:
Lonewolf wrote:
1) GOD gave that land to Israel
2) Only God can take it away
3) He says that will never happen (permanently, although there were exiled periods due to Israel's sin)
Philip, it is exactly that ^ ^ way of looking at the conflict that I believe some of you are doing., you are injecting religion, per say, into the conflict, and if that is the case, how then can you hold accountable the muslims for their faith in what their suppodsedly fighting for?

you can't have one side claiming is their god given right, and then tell the other side that their claim from their god is not legit.
Lonewolf,

I haven't really brought up the notion that God gave the land to Israel, so it's theirs. But, are you seriously using the argument that the god of the Koran is on equal grounds with the God of the bible. If what Jehovah says, is equal to what Allah says?
No I'm not using any religious argument at all., I was trying to make the point to Philip that if one side uses the god argument for their cause, how then can you judge the other side when they use their religion to justify their struggle?
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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#37

Post by Lonewolf » Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:05 pm

What started the latest exchange between Israel and Palestinians?

Rocket fire from militants in Gaza and Israeli air strikes on the territory increased after the abduction and killing of three Israeli teenagers in June, which Israel blamed on Hamas and which led to a crackdown on the group in the West Bank. Hamas denied being behind the killings. Tensions rose further after the suspected revenge killing of a Palestinian teenager in Jerusalem on 2 July.

On 7 July, Hamas claimed responsibility for firing rockets for the first time in 20 months, after a series of Israeli air strikes in which several members of its (Hamas) armed wing were killed.

. . .

Since July 8

Israeli casualties since the ground invasion phase began

3 civilians killed in Israel
64 Israeli soldiers killed*
*only one casualty occurred before the ground offensive.
3,356 rockets fired at Israel*
*most intercepted by Iron Dome.

. . .

The Palestinian casualties of Israel’s Operation Protective Edge

4,760+ air strikes on Gaza
1,875 people killed in Gaza
UN estimates +85% of deaths are civilians
Gaza UN situation report, 6 August
9,500 injured, including 2,877 children
520,000 people displaced
1.5 million have no or limited access to water
10,690 housing units destroyed or severely damaged
141 schools damaged
2-4 hours of electricity per day
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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#38

Post by Philip » Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:56 pm

My comment about God giving Israel the land was to insert what a Christian's understanding should be, as this is a Christian forum and what God tells us He has done in Scripture is to be our focus. God told Israel to clear out the land, often by violent means. He does not view the land issues as do modern people - or ancient ones, either. Notice I separated my points about Israel and God.

ANY enemy with the track record of Hamas must be dealt with very seriously.

See their charter: http://fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm

Anything that takes out Hamas, I am for - and I really don't care who does it. They are destroying their own, poor people in their blinded, Islamic rage against Israel. It will not end well for them.

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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#39

Post by Lonewolf » Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:16 pm

Philip wrote:My comment about God giving Israel the land was to insert what a Christian's understanding should be, as this is a Christian forum and what God tells us He has done in Scripture is to be our focus. God told Israel to clear out the land, often by violent means...
. . .

Anything that takes out Hamas, I am for - and I really don't care who does it. They are destroying their own, poor people in their blinded, Islamic rage against Israel. It will not end well for them.
substitute Islamic with Christian and they both translate as = blind rage ^ ^

and if that blind rage is what a Christian is supposed to be about, then I can not be that type of Christian., count me out!
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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#40

Post by Gman » Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:07 pm

Lonewolf wrote:
Philip wrote:My comment about God giving Israel the land was to insert what a Christian's understanding should be, as this is a Christian forum and what God tells us He has done in Scripture is to be our focus. God told Israel to clear out the land, often by violent means...
. . .

Anything that takes out Hamas, I am for - and I really don't care who does it. They are destroying their own, poor people in their blinded, Islamic rage against Israel. It will not end well for them.
substitute Islamic with Christian and they both translate as = blind rage ^ ^

and if that blind rage is what a Christian is supposed to be about, then I can not be that type of Christian., count me out!
Israel has the right to defend herself... This war has been going on since Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005... The Hamas terrorists have never stopped firing rockets since then.... It's always been an ongoing battle. And they never will stop..
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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#41

Post by neo-x » Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:46 pm

RickD wrote:
Neo wrote:
Except Israel isn't hammering Hamas, its also targeting civilins, whether it likes it or not.
I think we all have acknowledged that civilians that are human shields, are getting killed by Israel. But, are you saying Israel is targeting civilians?
Yes they are, its quite obvious now.
I mean killing hundreds of children, nothing justifies it as right imo. Both sides have blood on their hands, innocent blood.

When Israel is attacked by missiles fired from areas where civilians are used as shields, what would be a better option for Israel to take? Maybe just don't strike back?
They should strike back by all means just don't be total incompetent fools and kill unarmed civilians and hundreds of children in the middle. This is the same kind of sick mentality that american forces used in the Taliban war, kill one terrorist and a hundred people he is hiding among, because that is a fair price. Compare that to when an idiot stands up and shoots down a school in sandyhook, 20 children's death is a not a tragedy at all when hundreds of Gaza children are being killed?

You think armies are real soft hearted blokes with flowers in their pockets? that just happens in movies. In Afghanistan I saw pics of american soldiers pissing on dead children bodies. In 1971 Pakistan's own army killed more than a million people in Bangladesh and raped 200,000 women. What about My Lai, and countless other examples through out history? Armies are bred for this kind of thing. And they don't stop even when they end up killing children and women. No army is above war crimes, not Pakistan, not Israel, not america.
Look, none of us like the fact that civilians are getting killed. But we need to place the blame where it belongs. On those cowards hiding behind civilians.
The blame is on both sides. Both have killed. Just because you have to kill innocents to get a terrorist doesn't mean you are right. You are as coward as the one hiding behind the civilian. It disgusts me.
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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#42

Post by RickD » Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:06 am

RickD wrote:
I think we all have acknowledged that civilians that are human shields, are getting killed by Israel. But, are you saying Israel is targeting civilians?
Neo wrote:
Yes they are, its quite obvious now.
Please post evidence of Israel targeting civilians. This is a very strong accusation.
John 5:24
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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#43

Post by neo-x » Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:29 am

RickD wrote:
RickD wrote:
I think we all have acknowledged that civilians that are human shields, are getting killed by Israel. But, are you saying Israel is targeting civilians?
Neo wrote:
Yes they are, its quite obvious now.
Please post evidence of Israel targeting civilians. This is a very strong accusation.
And a good one too. They are targeting civilians. That is the reason civilians are dying. One example...did you not read the naval warship attacks on an unarmed beach? It is up there in my previous posts.

Also, with regards to previous reply to you, do you then agree with me that armies tend to do war crimes, almost in every war?
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#44

Post by neo-x » Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:09 am

Do you realize that 70% of the casualties are so far civs?

You think the right to self-defense overrides international humanitarian laws? it doesn't. Both sides are abusing it. I can't accept much from Hamas but I expected that Israel would not drop down to their level.

By the way, you could say at least this to defend them that" Israel may not like to target civilians". That may be true enough though from what I have been hearing far from reality.

But nonetheless when they decide to bomb a U.N operated school crammed with refugee families and NO ROCKETS AT ALL (reminds me of Iraq's wmd's), and Israel was told 17 times by the U.N authorities that the school was filled with families, children and refugees, yet they attacked.

And also consider the cafe, the beach, the marketplace, the hospital, the power grid etc, are all these military armed places? or do mean to tell me they fired rockets from that cafe where apparently also at the same time some young unarmed boys were sitting having a snack and some chat and watching the tv?

Of course Israel knows they are targeting civilians. I know they say that apparently rockets were fired form there (which is doubtful most exceptionally in the school incident) but one thing was clear, there were confirm facts that no rockets were at the beach, the cafe, the market place and the power grid station...and there were plenty of civs in there and the Israeli forces knew of the latter fact in two instances that I have read of. They had been warned by U.N officials not to attack the school and the hospital and they did it anyway.

You can't just ask people to leave their homes and expect them to go when borders are close and you are bombing?

read this from the Human rights watch website. More info:

http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/08/04/gaza ... -civilians

and this
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/j ... f-civilian

and this
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/07/ ... se-un.html

and this
http://www.theage.com.au/comment/israel ... zxjfv.html

and this
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/j ... cries-gaza

do you need more?
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#45

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:50 am

neo-x wrote:Do you realize that 70% of the casualties are so far civs?
I thought it was much higher, actually.
neo-x wrote:You think the right to self-defense overrides international humanitarian laws? it doesn't. Both sides are abusing it. I can't accept much from Hamas but I expected that Israel would not drop down to their level.
By electing terrorists to government, the people of Gaza have brought this war on themselves. Gaza and the so-called ''West Bank'' could both have strong economies and enjoy all the benefits of living next to a regional powerhouse. Instead, they have chosen to live in hatred and contempt of Israel. Israel withdrew its settlements from Gaza under Ariel Sharon; Israel did what the international community asked for: it exchanged land for peace. Did Israel get peace? no! it got daily rocket lauches into its territory from terrorist-controlled Gaza.

The best thing Gazans can do for themselves would be to remove Hamas from leadership and to execute/prosecute its members. (Egypt did this with the Muslim Brotherhood and it returned that country to a semblance of stability.)

FL :)
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