Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

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Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#1

Post by Philip » Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:41 pm

Some random thoughts I need to get off of my chest about the current conflict between Israel and Hamas:

Clueless people often love to pick the latest media-driven issue to take uneducated sides on, often ignorantly expressing naive views upon. This and they often don't know the history of what has gone down long before.

Well, HAS Israel gone TOO far in it's campaign against Hamas? How many rockets would Mexico fire into Texas or any border state before the U.S. took very serious measures to prevent all current and (hopefully) future attacks? A few? Probably, at most. How many years would the U.S. endure such attacks? YEARS? Please! Is a peaceful, sovereign neighbor supposed to absorb such evil that has been so often aimed at civilians without provocation, and by an enemy dedicated to destroying her?

Let's rewind the tape - not from recent weeks or months, but from JUST 2013: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pa ... rael,_2013

Oh, but JUST 52 rockets and mortar attacks on Israel in 2013, resulting in 54 deaths, you say. Well, lets rewind the tape back to the year before that (2012) - 2,200 missile attacks! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pa ... rael,_2012

Er, what about 2011?:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pa ... rael,_2011 - over 400 attacks and 62 deaths.

I could keep going back, but would it really matter to those who want to just see the media-driven sympathy for Hamas-supported Gaza? How much does Israel have to absorb before getting serious? And, guess what, does Hamas and Gaza's Palestinians have the support of the other nearby Arabs?

Not so much! Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia are actually on ISRAEL's side over Hamas: http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/31/world/mea ... za-region/ Why? Because they realize that the Islamist-driven fantatics supporting Hamas hate the leadership in the sovereign states of Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia as much as they do Israel! And these fantatics often hate other Muslims as much as they do Westerners and Israel. Doubt it?

Why are people upset that Israel has essentially said "No more" to Hamas and rockets - after years of this. After giving Gaza political and governing sovereignty, instead of using U.S. and world aid to help her poor, they use those billions to build rockets, launch attacks and to kill and maim. They hide their tunnels, weapons launchers and caches amongst mosques, poor neighborhoods and hospitals - THESE are how little Hamas cares about it's impoverished citizens - and even the citizens are starting to see their tragic situation, but so many are afraid that by speaking out they will be NEXT!!!

And so Hollywood airheads and misguided, ignorant people focus only on the media-driven stories and images that grossly and unfairly attempt to smear Israel as unnecessary and evil aggressors - this after YEARS of enduring rockets, mortars and deaths of civilians sleeping in their own homes! And so people are marching and waving signs and protesting Israel's DEFENSIVE and protective actions - designed to prevent further mayhem by Hamas. How do you fight an enemy launching rockets from civilian neighborhoods, mosques, next to hospitals? The answer is that Israel is doing what she must - not necessarily perfectly, but as it senses it must. If not stopped now, future attacks by Hamas are NOT a theoretical possibility!

Meanwhile, people protest largely defensive and necessary preventative actions by Israel while a mindless, evil, Muslim horde marches across Northern Iraq, killing men, women, children - and especially, any Christians they can find. Marching people into streets and big ditches and butchuring them with swords, knives and machineguns - like something out of Nazi-occupied Europe (http://rt.com/news/168916-isis-iraq-war-crimes/). But are most Hollywood types, liberals and hipsters upset about THAT? I'd say from their deafening silence, apparently not ... which tells me they are highly ignorant and selective in their current posturing over Israel!

Image

Lastly, a few observations and questions: Do people alive today, whose long-dead ANCESTORS were mistreated in many terrible ways and robbed of their lands (of which no doubt their ancestors also forced some other group off of, as well), have the right to take up arms and wage violent warfare against present people's whose long-dead ANCESTORS did the mistreatment and robbing against the present descendants of its long-dead, yet mistreated, ancestors? Remember, those leaders alive on both sides of the conflict in Israel were mostly 40 and above at the time of Israel's re-birth. And so regardless over what one might assert that Israel was eternally given by God, this nonetheless means that most alive today - on both sides of the conflict - were either not alive or not old enough to have either originated or played a part in the lines initially established. Attacking Israel, the Arabs lost more of their lands.

Questions: And so, is it right for today's generation to violently take up arms against a sovereign and peaceful nation of TODAY - even IF they say they are doing so to supposedly address and rectify the past sins of a present sovereign nation's grandfathers against THEIR grandfathers? Instead of seeking peace and growing it, instead of precious resources being used for the good of one's present country's circumstances, is it right to get caught up in generational hatreds that can only lead to attack, counter attack, etc? What if today's descendants of American Indians suddenly began a new uprising and terrorist attacks against U.S. citizens, military, etc - because today's European descendants' ancestors cheated today's Indian descendants' grandfathers in so many ways? Both the past cheaters and agressors and those they've cheated are ALL long dead. But that's the mentality of people who want to dwell on hate and the past! And it's both evil and terribly destructive for all. Notice that neither Jesus or His Apostles advocated the overthrow of Rome - except, perhaps, by LOVE.

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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#2

Post by theophilus » Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:21 am

Perhaps the best solution for the problem would be for Israel to launch a full scale invasion and take complete control of Gaza. This would result in many Palestinian deaths but once Israel was in control it could open up the area to humanitarian aid that would prevent many future deaths. Even more important it could give Christian relief organizations the opportunity to not only meet the people's physical needs but to bring them the message of salvation that would address their spiritual needs.
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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#3

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:28 am

Reality?
Well, here is reality:
This war will never end because for every Palestian that is killed at least 1 family member will want revenge and that revenge will be fueled by Hamas.
For every Israeli killed as least 1 family member will want revenge and that revenge will be fueled by the Israeli government.

I simply do not think that either side wants peace IF peace means NOT getting what they want.

While some may want peace, may seek it, there are far too many militant on BOTH sides that are willing to kill so that there is no peace.

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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#4

Post by Philip » Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:18 pm

Well, here is reality:

This war will never end because for every Palestian that is killed at least 1 family member will want revenge and that revenge will be fueled by Hamas. For every Israeli killed as least 1 family member will want revenge and that revenge will be fueled by the Israeli government.

I simply do not think that either side wants peace IF peace means NOT getting what they want.

While some may want peace, may seek it, there are far too many militant on BOTH sides that are willing to kill so that there is no peace.
Don't get me wrong, there certainly are people filled with hate and a desire eliminate all of the other side, on both sides of the conflict. However, only the political leadership in Gaza has made total destruction a goal and part of its official charter - and people in Gaza we'll knew this when they voted these psychos in. So, while many individuals on both sides only want continuos death and destruction to befall the other side, only Gaza has followed this as official policy. And, clearly - just looking at the rocket stats from the previous three years, Israel's response has been one of great restraint. And, make no mistake about it, Israel could have made a parking lot out of Gaza, long ago! Not to mention that Israel did not have to give those in Gaza their right to govern themselves. Yet, look how they responded. If Hamas had such military abilities, Israel would be destroyed.

Hamas has basically said that the ONLY peace that will satisfy them is if Israel no longer exists. Guess they should study Scripture a little - as it won't go down that way!

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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#5

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:44 pm

theophilus wrote:Perhaps the best solution for the problem would be for Israel to launch a full scale invasion and take complete control of Gaza. This would result in many Palestinian deaths but once Israel was in control it could open up the area to humanitarian aid that would prevent many future deaths. Even more important it could give Christian relief organizations the opportunity to not only meet the people's physical needs but to bring them the message of salvation that would address their spiritual needs.
It won't happen. God originally commanded the Israelites to wipe out the inhabitants of Canaan but they wouldn't do it. They won't do it today either.

An Israeli acquaintance told my mother, ''If we wanted to, we could push all the Palestinians into the sea...'' Of course they could! but can you imagine the outcry if Israel did so? Already Israel is unfairly taxed with being an apartheid state, vilified by the ignorant, and even roundly condemned by nescient Christians.

There is a lot of latent antisemitism around, even among Christinans. Nothing Israel does will satisfy those who hate her, nothing. That is the lesson of history.

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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#6

Post by Lonewolf » Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:18 pm

The way i look at it ~> it is a most deceiving act when you throw up a pic of ISIS doing their dirty deeds and use it to convince the world that the Palestinian "plight" is the same as that of ISIS !!!

How true ~> of a follower of Christ are we., when we default to such (?)
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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#7

Post by Philip » Sat Aug 09, 2014 6:50 am

The way i look at it ~> it is a most deceiving act when you throw up a pic of ISIS doing their dirty deeds and use it to convince the world that the Palestinian "plight" is the same as that of ISIS !!!
If you had carefully read my post, you would understand that the picture was to illustrate the hypocrisy of those incensed by necessary and defensive actions of peaceful, sovereign state against state-sponsored terrorism that has continuously launched barrages of rockets into civilian population, whilst they ignore the savagery being carried out against peaceful Muslims who are being butchered by hundreds a day, by other fanatic, Islamist Muslims. And don't be so disingenuous to not realize the Palestinian's are suffering because of there own, elected leaders' barbaric actions - and of which Hamas' evil, state terrorist attacks and hatred of Israel very much mirror those of ISIS!

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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#8

Post by theophilus » Sat Aug 09, 2014 7:33 am

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:It won't happen. God originally commanded the Israelites to wipe out the inhabitants of Canaan but they wouldn't do it. They won't do it today either.
I'm not advocating wiping out the inhabitants. I think Israel should take over the territory so that it can wipe out the power of Hamas and replace it with a government that will care about the welfare of the people.
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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#9

Post by neo-x » Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:15 am

There is no end to this conflict...no one is a saint in this. There is no right or wrong, just greater or lesser of evils.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#10

Post by Gman » Sun Aug 10, 2014 6:00 pm

Philip wrote:
The way i look at it ~> it is a most deceiving act when you throw up a pic of ISIS doing their dirty deeds and use it to convince the world that the Palestinian "plight" is the same as that of ISIS !!!
If you had carefully read my post, you would understand that the picture was to illustrate the hypocrisy of those incensed by necessary and defensive actions of peaceful, sovereign state against state-sponsored terrorism that has continuously launched barrages of rockets into civilian population, whilst they ignore the savagery being carried out against peaceful Muslims who are being butchered by hundreds a day, by other fanatic, Islamist Muslims. And don't be so disingenuous to not realize the Palestinian's are suffering because of there own, elected leaders' barbaric actions - and of which Hamas' evil, state terrorist attacks and hatred of Israel very much mirror those of ISIS!
Correct phillip... Ultimately this war is a war against the Hamas terrorists. Unfortunately there are many innocent civilians that are also getting caught up in this war well. Many times the IDF will target a building only to find numerous bombs and other explosives in the building that also get detonated. When this happens, these explosions go everywhere and sometimes also effect other buildings where civilian populations perhaps may live.. Israel has absolutely no intentions of hurting these civilians and goes through GREAT lengths to prevent such catastrophes, including numerous warnings before striking, but they are not perfect either (no one is). It should be understood however that Israel DID NOT start this war nor does it want this war, it only wants to remain in peace with it's neighbors. Please pray for the peace of Jerusalem and the region... y@};-
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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#11

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Sun Aug 10, 2014 6:16 pm

neo-x wrote:There is no end to this conflict...no one is a saint in this. There is no right or wrong, just greater or lesser of evils.
You are right when you say that there is no end to this conflict: any Bible-believing person knows that this conflict will only end with Jesus' arrival. However, you are also wrong: one side is clearly right and the other is clearly wrong.

This site will help you determine which side cultivates hate, which side teaches its children to hate, which side rewards those who kill indiscriminately and which side whose leaders squirrel away millions of dollars in aid money into secret bank accounts so that they can live the lavish life in London and Paris:

http://www.palwatch.org

Are you able to access the above site, or does your country forbid you access?

FL y:-?
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#12

Post by RickD » Sun Aug 10, 2014 6:41 pm

neo-x wrote:There is no end to this conflict...no one is a saint in this. There is no right or wrong, just greater or lesser of evils.
Neo,

How can you say there's no right and no wrong side in this? One side wants to exist peacefully within the region. The other side wants to wipe the first side off the face of the earth. One side attacks, constantly. The other side is just defending itself. It seems pretty obvious who's right and who's wrong.
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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#13

Post by Philip » Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:26 pm

Hamas is well practiced at what most tyrannical agents of evil do - they keep the focus off of their own lies and misdeeds by constantly demonizing the other side, so as to convince poor, uneducated people that Israel is the reason for their great poverty and misery, and that if only Israel ceased to exist, all of their problems would go away and prosperity would be theirs. But Hamas goes further, in that any who might publicly criticize them risk their very lives. And, make no mistake, the Arab countries like Egypt and Saudi Arabia are all for Israel dismantling the Hamas extremists, as they realize such groups threaten their own power and stability - and will be coming for them next. In every Islamist country ruled by a strongman, take him out and many Islamist factions begin fighting each other to the death. Iraq, Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Libya - this is what we've seen. They hate each other as much as they hate the West. And so what is the common element in such hatreds? Radical Islam! Each group thinks their brand and vision of Islam is the more pure one - and worth killing and brutalizing to see their version replace and eliminate their rivals. They do not understand love or forgiveness.

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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#14

Post by Philip » Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:50 pm

THIS is what has the leaders of Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, and Syria quaking in their boots!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ality.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/ushome/index.html

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Re: Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

#15

Post by neo-x » Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:21 pm

I understand why Israel does what it does but I don't think its "right" in many instances. Just see how many children they have ended up killing? So while Hamas certainly is the bigger evil, Israel has chosen the path of evil nonetheless, just the lesser one in this conflict.

America droned in my country for years, killing hundreds and thousands of innocent people. It easy to say that its right to kill to defend and accept "collateral damage" as long as its not your children who are being killed as collateral damage.

The Jews have been so much persecuted in the past that their fears and insecurities are pretty obvious. I totally get that. But they are not a really a victim anymore. But they have that historical get of the jail free card now to back it up. The way they have done it now, is totally unethical, they have brought themselves on the same level as Hamas which is evil to begin with.

The Jews hate the Palestinians as much as the Palestinians hate them. But is it Hamas which is being targeted or Palestine?

Look, kill Hamas all you like, but when you kill children and civilians, when you shoot 10 year old boys playing on a beach from a naval warship, you are obviously incompetent to do what you are doing. And no one needs to sugar coat it.

The problem is Israel is not after Hamas exclusively, they want Palestinians gone. Right now Israel is creating a stronger Hamas. Just like Americans are creating new Talibans. Bombing civilians, stopping food and water, land grabbing is not a good way to get rid of Hamas, none of these tactics help in combating Hamas at all. They are aimed at removing Palestinians, shooing them away.

So there is no right and wrong here, only greater and lesser evils. There is no side with which God must be so pleased with. That is an illusion.

The day Russia or china or N.Korea starts bombing Canada and America for some CIA action gone wrong, and when innocents started dying, that day you may be able to see why such brutality is unacceptable, no matter who or what started it, anywhere in the world.

Its certainly a mess and I am not taking sides. Both parties have bled, both have lost civilians. And now I can not really distinguish between both. So yeah I understand who is doing what and why, I just don't accept it as "right" anymore. They are both murderous groups whether they like to admit or not doesn't change the facts. There is innocent blood on their hands and I don't think its justified anyway you put this.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

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