Israel: Small Country, Big Ideas

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Re: Israel: Small Country, Big Ideas

#16

Post by SeekingSanctuary » Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:46 am

Lonewolf, how exactly are we too 'religious' or too 'western'? First, I actually don't view Israel in much of a religious light. Second, nothing I said was 'western', I listed facts as they were. You can't simply post something like what you did, barely a sentence or two with no explanation, and expect anyone to understand your view point.

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Re: Israel: Small Country, Big Ideas

#17

Post by Lonewolf » Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:44 am

SeekingSanctuary wrote:Lonewolf, how exactly are we too 'religious' or too 'western'? First, I actually don't view Israel in much of a religious light. Second, nothing I said was 'western', I listed facts as they were. You can't simply post something like what you did, barely a sentence or two with no explanation, and expect anyone to understand your view point.

Double SS, I was "generalizing" in regards to 'religious and western thinking' because that's how IMO generally speaking, WE in the West tend to have a worldview and analyze things under.

We in the West tend to view the world through our understanding of so-called Christian and democratic values, but yet, we fall short in understanding because we don't expand our horizon as to the "people" who give rise to such groups as Hamas.

HAMAS was once upon a time not that long ago ~> democratically elected, and the Palestinians so too but a couple of decades ago ~> agreed to a two state solution to the conflict., but it all fell in deaf ears; Israel could not afford that peace.

It is by no small measure ~> a historical conflict, the one between the Hebrews/Jews and everyone else, not only in that small part of the world, but elsewhere., and so too ~> it has been a religious conflict all along, no doubt about it!

I invite you to read as much as possible about that Zionist and Palestinian conflict as much as possible, not from mainstream news sources or general web sites created by who knows who and for God knows what personal or political reasons, but to really get down to the nitty gritty of the conflict and its modern roots and reasons. I personally work in a field which puts me in direct contact with a whole lot of people from the Middle-East, or Near East as some would term it (the Levant), as well as with a lot of folks from Persia, Armenia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Nigeria, West Africa and such. These people are not un-educated, these people carry degrees from their respective homelands. They are of all religious backgrounds; from Druze to Chaldean, from Armenian Christians to Maronite, from Shia to Sunni Muslims, from Tewahedo Copts to secular agnostics and atheist., yes ~> there is a wide variety of beliefs in that huge crowd of peoples. Overall they're hard working and very inviting; they are not the scourge of the world Genghis Khan type that mainstream media generalizes their respective countries to be on account of the bad apples.

But getting back to the topic at hand.,

I'm currently reading 5 diff books on the subject, and one that is most enlightening is titled "The Wounds of Dispossession - Telling The Palestinian Story" by Kathleen Christison, who by the way is ex-CIA, which ought to account for something, right? And no, my whole understanding of the conflict is not solely based on books or from conversations with certain peoples, because I am after all somewhat a man without a country, and that having to do with myself identifying as a Chicano, for I'm neither Mexican nor American wholly in my heart, but that's another subject topic which I don't care to get into on this forum, but I'm just mentioning it to show some light as to how not everyone (all) view things strictly from a certain mainstream perspective.

Here's a couple of quotes from the book The Wounds of Dispossession..

Palestinians differ very basically from American and most Jews and Israelis in their perception of Zionism and of what precisely the Zionist ideology means for both Jews and Palestinians. Americans generally perceive Zionism in its simplest and most romantic terms, as an ideology whose goal is the creation and maintenance of a haven from persecution for the Jewish people. As such, Zionism is regarded as benign, even laudable political theory. Even most Jews and Israelis do not look beneath the surface of this definition to the implications of Zionism. Palestinians on the other hand focus on what Zionism’s goal, the creation of a Jewish “State,” has meant for non-Jews who live on the land on which Zionism set its sights.

To Palestinians, Zionism means not primarily that Jews gain a refuge from persecution, but that Palestinians lose their place in their own homeland. To Palestinians, Zionism’s drive to establish a specifically Jewish “State” means that Jews intended from the beginning to exclude the native inhabitants of Palestine. Palestinians regard Zionism as by its very nature an exclusivist ideology based on a single religious/ethnic identity that necessarily excludes all who are not Jews. The mere presence of substantial numbers of non-Jews in a Zionist “State” is a threat to its Jewishness and therefore to its very essence. Palestinians believe Israel could never have fulfilled the goals of Zionism and become a Jewish state if Palestinians had remained in their homes in 1948 and continued to multiply.
It is important to remember where Palestinians are coming from when they talk about their perception of Jews. They begin at a different starting point than do Jews and most Americans. They do not accept that their own opposition to Israel and Zionism is, as it appears to Jews, a continuation of the centuries of persecution that Jews have suffered in Europe and elsewhere in the world. Few Palestinians can accept the Jewish perception that suffering is suffering, that they hurt as much whether it is inflicted at the hands of the Europeans or of the Arabs, and that Palestinian and Arab hostility seems to the Jews to be merely a continuum. The reasons are secondary, the persecutors indistinguishable; the fact of suffering is what is paramount in the minds of the Jews.

Almost universally, Palestinians confronted with this argument will say that their opposition to Israel and Zionism is totally unrelated to earlier European persecution of Jews. They know that they consider the facts of their own situation-that a people who claimed an ancient heritage in Palestine but did not live there in large numbers began to arrive en masse with the intention of displacing the native Palestinians and eventually, as the result of a heinous crime against them with which the Palestinians had no connection, won the world’s sympathy and the world’s approval to proceed with the dispossession of the Palestinians-and they cannot accept that European crimes against the Jewish people justify Jewish crimes against the Palestinian people, or that the Palestinian struggle to regain their homeland bears any resemblance to pogroms in Europe or the Holocaust.
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Re: Israel: Small Country, Big Ideas

#18

Post by SeekingSanctuary » Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:43 am

Lonewolf, many of the sources you mention have high levels of ignorance of the Holocaust and levels of antisemism. Those sources are more biased then the mainstream.

Hamas was elected in legislature, yes, but they didn't gain control over the executive branch until after several violent conflicts with the PLO.

Israel had left Gaza alone until Hamas came to power. They had left completely. Then a group came to power who in their very charter says they will force the Jewish people into the sea and take Jerusalem as their capital. For years they were stockpiling weapons. How would you have Israel react? Their options seem very limited.

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Re: Israel: Small Country, Big Ideas

#19

Post by Lonewolf » Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:07 am

In any event Double SS, what we have today, whether you blame Hamas, PLFP, PLO, Zionists or whoever, it is all an aftereffect of the original conflict.

I quote what you said previously-
Israel regularly warns the civilians before they bomb to get them to go to safety.
-and I have to ask, did all those hundreds of Palestinian civilians -children, women, elderly and non-combatants- chose to ignore the bombing run warnings issued by the Israeli military and chose to die?

I know I would of ran and hid "if i could" ., i guess them Palestinian folks didn't have better sense, right?
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Re: Israel: Small Country, Big Ideas

#20

Post by SeekingSanctuary » Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:49 pm

Many have left their homes. Look at the residents of several communities, a quick search brought up one or too, like Zeitoun.

Some are not healthy so they stay, this includes the elderly. Others feel they do not have anywhere else to go (I don't know if that's true or not, Palestine or the other Palestinians may be trying to provide for them. I don't know) With others, how much do you know about Japan during WW2? Many of the residents would rather die then be caught by American soldiers. Many people will say it was because Japan expected the worse for POWs, look at what their people did in conquered lands in China, but it was more than that. There was something strongly cultural that was a part of them from birth. While people naturally want to fight for life, they can be willing to die for what they care about. Indoctrination can do that. And with a culture where children are applauded for saying they want to grow up and be a martyr, well...

Question: Do you judge Britain as being in the wrong for some of their actions during World War 2?

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Re: Israel: Small Country, Big Ideas

#21

Post by Gman » Sat Aug 23, 2014 6:31 pm

Lonewolf wrote:In any event Double SS, what we have today, whether you blame Hamas, PLFP, PLO, Zionists or whoever, it is all an aftereffect of the original conflict.

I quote what you said previously-
Israel regularly warns the civilians before they bomb to get them to go to safety.
-and I have to ask, did all those hundreds of Palestinian civilians -children, women, elderly and non-combatants- chose to ignore the bombing run warnings issued by the Israeli military and chose to die?

I know I would of ran and hid "if i could" ., i guess them Palestinian folks didn't have better sense, right?
What war has ever been devoid of civilian casualties?? Name one. All wars have a certain amount of them including the U.S.. No one wants to see this. No one... The IDF goes through great great scrutiny more so than any military and has one of the greatest moral standards than any other military in the world. But no, it is NOT perfect.

Hamas on the other hand fires missiles indiscriminately into Israel, which is composed of Jewish, Christian, and Muslim people.

For the record, Israel did not start this war... Israel gave up land in Gaza in 2005 and now that land is being used to shoot missiles into Israel. They are paying a heavy price for this mistake and now will probably be forced into another land invasion.. something that they are forced into to stop the carnage.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: Israel: Small Country, Big Ideas

#22

Post by Lonewolf » Sat Aug 23, 2014 11:37 pm

Gman, you view things only one way

There's no point of having this discussion any more

The history of how the State of Israel is irrelevant to you and many others

All that matters now is that the State of Israel has the guns and runs the media campaign

To hell with real history if it has anything bad to say about how Israel too ~> was created through terrorism!
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Re: Israel: Small Country, Big Ideas

#23

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:04 am

Lonewolf wrote:The history of how the State of Israel is irrelevant to you and many others
Actually the history of the modern State of Israel is irrelevant from a biblical standpoint. How Israel became a nation in 1948 is of secular interest only. As far as the Bible-believing Christian is concerned, this is important: modern Israel represents the fulfillment of prophecies uttered thousands of years ago by Isaiah, Daniel and Zephaniah, among others.

FL :D
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Re: Israel: Small Country, Big Ideas

#24

Post by Lonewolf » Sun Aug 24, 2014 11:10 am

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
Lonewolf wrote:The history of how the State of Israel is irrelevant to you and many others
Actually the history of the modern State of Israel is irrelevant from a biblical standpoint. How Israel became a nation in 1948 is of secular interest only. As far as the Bible-believing Christian is concerned, this is important: modern Israel represents the fulfillment of prophecies uttered thousands of years ago by Isaiah, Daniel and Zephaniah, among others.

FL :D

Well i suppose that indeed to one mainstream Christian thought of understanding, a fulfillment of some sort of the rebirth of Israel in a secular world is what scripture had in mind all along.
I guess that I just can't phantom the idea that this Israeli state is what God had in mind, just like the temple being destroyed and being rebuilt in 3 days was misunderstood in the days when Jesus spoke of it.

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Re: Israel: Small Country, Big Ideas

#25

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Sun Aug 24, 2014 11:58 am

Lonewolf wrote:Well i suppose that indeed to one mainstream Christian thought of understanding, a fulfillment of some sort of the rebirth of Israel in a secular world is what scripture had in mind all along.
No. It isn't mainstream Christian thought. It is straight from the Word. Most of mainstream Christianity would be glad to dispossess the Jews of Israel if that would be possible. It wouldn't, though, because that would go against the very Word of God. Even that the name Israel would be forgotten was prophecied by King David in Ps 83:4! And it happened! Roman Emperor Hadrian renamed Judea/Israel ''Palestine'' as punishment for the Jewish rebellion in 135CE. For over one thousand eight-hundred years, King David's prophecy was in effect: Israel was forgotten. Then, in 1948, after a remarkable set of circumstances, Israel was reborn. Only fools and anti-semites can say that God had no Hand in this. Those same benighted folk still use Emperor Hadran's ''Palestine'' when referring to Israel today...probably out of spite.
Lonewolf wrote:I guess that I just can't [fathom] the idea that this Israeli state is what God had in mind, just like the temple being destroyed and being rebuilt in 3 days was misunderstood in the days when Jesus spoke of it.
The misunderstanding around the Temple is irrelevant here. The present State of Israel has been prophecied in wrath and for judgement. That judgement is God's, not yours or mine, so it would be wise to shut up whenever the urge comes upon you to criticize Israel. As for the ''Israeli state [that] God [has] in mind'' that state will come from the transformation of the one you now enjoy heaping abuse on. This too is prophecied.

FL :teacher:
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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Re: Israel: Small Country, Big Ideas

#26

Post by Lonewolf » Sun Aug 24, 2014 4:26 pm

look it here FL, i'm not afraid to speak my mind., if that will lead me to condemnation, so be it, but i don't think that neglecting to speak against injustices done by an Israeli State is what will condemn me after all is said and done

if you want to shut people up just because you interpret things one way, whether Biblical or not, I personally don't think it is appropriate, to say the least

Now, having said all that I have said, I don't believe that I have ever stated that the current rebirth of Israel is not the work of God and the fulfillment of prophecy..
it might just well be, but do I believe that they (Zionist) are behaving like a people of God, I wholeheartedly believe they are not!

maybe it will come to be fulfilled that after this regathering up of the tribes of Israel, that we will witness the new Israel of prophecy., maybe so
but still, to act like any other nation on earth with force and violence to "dominate" not just the land but a people as well, well, they're not behaving any differently than the heathen, per say

as to the question of antisemitism, really?

I am fully aware that my LORD was of the Hebrew nation, a Jew if you would., and so where the Apostles and first disciples, as well as the Blessing received from the chosen people
that does not mean that i will simply give a pass to wrong doing when it is wrong, how can I?
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Re: Israel: Small Country, Big Ideas

#27

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:39 pm

Wow! you really get upset over diddlysquat! Have you had a sex change recently?

Get a grip on yourself, Chicano!

Anyway, your comments, above, show me that you are still locked up in your story about how nasty you perceive Israel to be.

Anyway, I don't care. I really don't. If you want to single out Israel as a nasty nation, go ahead. You are in good company, as most enlightened nations already condemn Israel. These include such great human rights luminaries as Morocco, Algeria, Lybia, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Oman, the Yemens, Sudan, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrein, Mali, Mauritania, Pakistan, Bangladesh...I could go on! There is a 56 member voting block composed of anti-semite Muslim nations in the UN that systematically condemns Israel. Each one of these nations is a far worse violator of ''human dignity'' than Israel, yet Israel is singled out. Hypocrites!

Attitude towards Israel is an excellent litmus test to measure the antisemitism of persons or nations. So far, you're looking pretty suspicious to me.

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Re: Israel: Small Country, Big Ideas

#28

Post by Gman » Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:25 pm

Lonewolf wrote:Gman, you view things only one way

There's no point of having this discussion any more

The history of how the State of Israel is irrelevant to you and many others

All that matters now is that the State of Israel has the guns and runs the media campaign
The Jewish people have always been living in the land of Israel for thousands of years. You have no right to say that..
Lonewolf wrote:To hell with real history if it has anything bad to say about how Israel too ~> was created through terrorism!
Not true at all.. It was the Muslim extremists that started the wars after 1948 when Israel was voted to be a nation. Not Israel.. As I have stated before, even if you look strip away the religious aspect from Israel and look what they are doing for the region and the Arab people you can't say that.. Arabs have WAY more rights than they would in a Arab country.
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We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: Israel: Small Country, Big Ideas

#29

Post by SeekingSanctuary » Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:03 pm

Lonewolf, if you were in Israel's shoes, what would you do? How would you handle the situation?

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Re: Israel: Small Country, Big Ideas

#30

Post by Lonewolf » Mon Aug 25, 2014 3:21 pm

SeekingSanctuary wrote:Lonewolf, if you were in Israel's shoes, what would you do? How would you handle the situation?

Well you can not undo a lot of the wrongs that have been done by both sides, but since it is the State of Israel that has the high moral ground -as some had defined it- then it is up to Israel to really acknowledge their errors and treat all Palestinians -whether inside the borders or outside its borders- with true respect. It took the United Stated hundreds of years to end slavery, and it took the nation another century plus for civil rights to really apply to all in practice and not just in words and in ignored laws. Today, Israel has the military might and the political savvy to come to terms with Palestinians as equals, not as masters, but as equals. If Israel really cared to have peace as an equal partner in the process, not as a big brother, but as an equal.
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