America or Mexico?

[touchingcloth]

Very well said Danny. There are certainly a lot of lazy British toerags who want Johnny Foreigner to hoppit, but would turn their nose up at actually doing an honest day's work.

Immigration's such a tough issue, as there's a really delicate balance to be struck between making sure that citizens who want to work are able to do so, obtaining skilled and unskilled workers from abroad to fill jobs that are desperately lacking any local takers, and providing asylum to those who genuinely need it whilst keeping the borders shut to those who would only be scroungers. A conundrum indeed.

[DannyM]

Very well said Danny. There are certainly a lot of lazy British toerags who want Johnny Foreigner to hoppit, but would turn their nose up at actually doing an honest day's work.

Immigration's such a tough issue, as there's a really delicate balance to be struck between making sure that citizens who want to work are able to do so, obtaining skilled and unskilled workers from abroad to fill jobs that are desperately lacking any local takers, and providing asylum to those who genuinely need it whilst keeping the borders shut to those who would only be scroungers. A conundrum indeed.

Absolutely TC. It all inevitably spirals out of control when you cannot account for how many illegal immigrants are in the country. Also, given the choice between a family of hard-working Indian immigrants and a family of indiginous, perpetual scroungers who cause havoc to their whole neighbourhood then I know who I'd like to see shipped out and given a sharp shock to their system!

[touchingcloth]

Haha. Did you see that one of the points in the BNP's manifesto was a pledge to give 180,000 "non-indigenous" people (meaning, I assume, non-white rather than non-British) per year £50k to leave the country? I was half tempted to vote for them...I'm mongrel enough that I could probably claim the cash and head off somewhere exotic!

[DannyM]

Haha. Did you see that one of the points in the BNP's manifesto was a pledge to give 180,000 "non-indigenous" people (meaning, I assume, non-white rather than non-British) per year £50k to leave the country? I was half tempted to vote for them...I'm mongrel enough that I could probably claim the cash and head off somewhere exotic!

[cslewislover]

Hmmm. I don't know why Arizona passed that law, but I'd like to find out. I really don't think they'd have done it if they didn't feel they had a need. I'm sure much of Arizona's economy actually depends on the cheap labor that immigrants provide. I know that is true here, in Southern California. I was surprised to find that when I moved here, to Santa Ana - the heart of Hispanic immigration - there was in place a $1000 fine for playing loud music. I'm sure it's not always enforced, but it's a good law. Anaheim, where I moved from, is also very densely Hispanic (whites are a definite minority - all my son's friends were Hispanic, but he also got picked on a lot by other Hispanic kids, in a pretty bad way), and there were problems related to loud parties and noise, littering (these are cultural and you can look these issues up yourself), overly dense housing, gangs and graffiti, etc.

There is also a certain percent of the population (and from what I have seen in the news, it's larger than it had been) that is angry at us and wants the Southwest back. These people can in fact be scary! I could reproduce an anecdote written by a Christian professor relating his experience at a "university debate" in Los Angeles, which was nothing of the sort - just a soap box for a Hispanic professor and his violent students to vent some steam. Truly amazing. Anyway, other things that I've experienced, indirectly, are the shootings near the house where I used to live. There were quite a few, and as far as I know, they were mostly or all Hispanic related. One guy that got shot very close to our house was trying to rob a used car dealer, and he had been deported before already.

Most of the Hispanics are fine and I'm sure just want a better life (of course, here and in the rest of the Southwest, there are very old Hispanic families that have been here a very very long time), but there are many criminals, too. They keep tunneling under the border with drugs (and I'm sure weapons). As for schools, they are almost all Hispanic here and in Anaheim, and these two cities have the lowest ratings of all schools in the state, and California is one of the lowest rated states for public education anyway. There are many many issues, but I think most people realize that Hispanics are just people too and don't have a knee jerk reaction against them. It's not just economic; our country's kindness/tolerance is in fact why there are so many here and why they have such a foothold in some areas. I find it sad that their own country can't seem to find a way to do better. The violence there has only increased; the kidnappings and their results are heart wrenching.

[BavarianWheels]

It looks anti-immigrant because it requires ALL immigrants, legal or not, to carry immigration papers.

As the offspring of a natural born citizen of the U.S. and a legal resident alien, I support the Arizona law. I don't see why this (as one aspect of your argument) is of any consequence. Since I was a kid, and up to this day, my father has carried his Resident Alien Card with him everywhere he goes in his wallet. It is required of him to do so. It states it clearly on the card itself. ALL IMMIGRANTS should carry their immigration papers with them! When I travel outside the U.S. (I've been to Russia, Ukraine, France, Germany...) all these places require that you be able to show your legal right to be in their country and some places (Russia) require papers for each city on top. Now I will admit that I don't carry my passport on my person, but it is safe in my hotel room if the need arises with the necessary visas attached.

No one is saying, that I know of, to arrest these people and throw them in jail as criminals. But if they are found to be illegal, they are fined and either they pay to legally document themselves or they are sent packing.

Crime vs. infraction. Both are illegal. Both have different consequences.

As a matter of statement when this all started, I started carrying my passport around with me just to prove the point that even the true citizen of the U.S. can abide by a "stupid" law to show proof of citizenship. It's no big deal. It's in my briefcase and by my side at almost all times.

Ok...I only read the first page of this thread so I have some more reading to do. I agree on some points Jac makes, but make my stand on legal vs. illegal on the side of LEGAL. As one person mentioned...we don't know the exact problems facing Arizona. I can only imagine the problem is worse than it is here in So. Cal.
.

[cslewislover]

I've read a number of articles about this, and I can't agree with it. Federal Court Orders Port Chester, New York, to Implement New Voting Methods In this village, 49% of the residents are Hispanic - but not all are citizens. This voting method is used in order to give non-citizens representation (a person gets to vote for the same candidate six times, so it's as if he's voting for 5 others who can't vote). This just seems really odd to me. If 35% of the Hispanics are citizens, say, and they all voted the normal way, they could've gotten a Hispanic in as a trustee. It's always been "one vote per person" in our country, but now we are even changing voting methods in order for non-citizen minorities to "have a vote," in essence. Just as a note, I looked up the basic statistics for my county for the last election. While Republicans are no longer a majority here, more Republicans voted than Democrats, by almost twice as much. A minority group can win an election by simply getting out there and voting. And yes, we should keep our voting system "one person, one vote."

[Gabrielman]

I've read a number of articles about this, and I can't agree with it. Federal Court Orders Port Chester, New York, to Implement New Voting Methods In this village, 49% of the residents are Hispanic - but not all are citizens. This voting method is used in order to give non-citizens representation (a person gets to vote for the same candidate six times, so it's as if he's voting for 5 others who can't vote). This just seems really odd to me. If 35% of the Hispanics are citizens, say, and they all voted the normal way, they could've gotten a Hispanic in as a trustee. It's always been "one vote per person" in our country, but now we are even changing voting methods in order for non-citizen minorities to "have a vote," in essence. Just as a note, I looked up the basic statistics for my county for the last election. While Republicans are no longer a majority here, more Republicans voted than Democrats, by almost twice as much. A minority group can win an election by simply getting out there and voting. And yes, we should keep our voting system "one person, one vote."

It's just the libs trying to be "politically correct" (actually it is just them trying to buy out the next election by making the republicans look racist). The fact is that people try to portray them as so king of victim so as to give them special rights. I think everyone should have equal rights. If this judge wanted to have a Hispanic elected then why not go around supporting him in every way. One person, one vote. Our founding fathers must be rolling in their graves right now...

Look I am not trying to be mean. I think that if anyone wants to come to this country they can do so, the right way, just like all the others who immigrated here have done. I also don't think we should play favorites when it comes to race, that is just wrong.

[sinnerbybirth]

I say, vote them all out! The politicians that is.

Term limits.
We vote their pay raises, not them.
Same Heath Care for them as for us.
After their term has expired, No More Paycheck.
Put them back on Social Security.

Anyone have anything to add to the list?

[cslewislover]

Sounds great to me!

[Kristoffer]

wow those BNP sound nuts, maybe that coalition goverment is good for Britain then. (i thought it looked weak)