America or Mexico?

[RickD]

The "illegal" in "illegal alien" is popular terminology. They are undocumented, precisely because they haven't filed the proper paperwork. As a result, their "crime" is an infraction--well, it was, until the Arizona law, which codified the infraction into a bona fide crime.

As far as them not being taxed on their income, that is another myth. It's just not true. Most illegals have SSNs, even if they are fake. In fact, they actually OVERPAY on their income taxes, because their employers withold taxes from their checks, and then they don't get to file for a refund like you and I do. Further, they pay sales taxes, property taxes, excise taxes, gas taxes, and every other tax under the sun that all the rest of us do. The only ones who don't pay taxes on their incomes are those that get paid in straight cash, and if you are going to complain about that, you'd better complain a lot louder about how many Americans get paid under the table every day. In any case, even barring that, you don't arrest someone for not paying their taxes. You fine them and make them pay their back-taxes.

Conservatives are simply wrong to support this. They are morally wrong, politically wrong, and economically wrong. And you can blame conservative talking heads and talk radio above all for it.

Thanks Jac. I'm not so much complaining about illegal aliens accepting pay under the table. I'm just inquiring. And yes, legal Americans are wrong for not paying income tax also. I thought one could be arrested and imprisoned for tax evasion. A notable YEC is still in prison for tax evasion, isn't he? I think his initials are Kent Hovind . I also think it may be a crime to have an illegal ssn, correct. If it is true that they are actually "undocumented" rather than "illegal", then thanks for setting me straight on that. Like I said this is new to me. Why do you think conservative talk show hosts are pushing this then? Maybe for ratings? And, as far as Pres. Obama, I think people are really seeing him for what he is. Maybe those same conservative talk show hosts can at least be thanked for helping with that. Again, thanks Jac

[Jac3510]

When you owe the IRS hundreds of thousands of dollars and you are convicted of doing in on purpose, yes, you can go to jail. I don't think most people who work in the US, legally or not, fall under that category.

As for people seeing Obama for what he is, certainly we can thank the conservative media for some of that. I don't think they are all bad or always bad. I just don't think that, overall, they do more good than harm. I'm not going to try to judge their motivations, intentions, or attitudes. No one has the right to that to anyone. Not even to Obama *gasp*! We can only judge results and/or facts, and the results of this particalar play on most of their parts is bad politics for conservatives as a whole.

[cslewislover]

It is true, as Bart mentioned, that when the economy gets bad, people start pointing fingers. Historically in California, there has been a cycle of immigrant issues that coincide with a bad economy. I don't know why, however, the birth certificate and citizenship issue has never been changed. This is why there are so many families here, that sure, no one should want to break up. I'm sure that if our country did not have enough workers, the visiting worker program would be larger, and more people would be applying to be here legally. I don't understand the politics of this historically, as it seems like it would make more sense. And this isn't just a traditional American vs new immigrant issue; there are newer immigrants that support reform as well. Also, it really does seem to me that the liberals don't push for real reform because they want the votes. I couldn't help thinking that when Mrs. Obama went to Mexico. It would be nice if they helped the border states deal with financial issues - I know that in California, the state pays a lot out to provide medical care for illegal immigrants. They of course attend public schools, too. I don't know that the amount of taxes they pay actually pays for all of the programs that help them out; I don't know, maybe it works out, and our state debt is caused entirely by other things.

[zoegirl]

I agree that there is much that is wrong about the bill.

I would say; however, that it is born from much frustration from the border states. None of us live there and so can't really speak about the frustrations there.

I would wish we would be able to hear from the people of Arizona. It seems rather pointed when there is a majority that support this.

[Gabrielman]

http://www.wsbtv.com/video/23438021/index.html
Watch this, the immigration law isn't about trying to stop people who want to come here and have a better life. I am all for immigration btw, it is about our own safety. Is it so wrong to ask everyone who wants to come to this country to do it the right way. Instead many come in through sneaky and underhanded ways and have no intention of being "legal" hints the sanctuary cities. Sorry, but I just can't see any logical reason why you would be against a bill that would make it so you would have to be here legally, therefore allowing you to get paid the proper amount of money for a job, and allowing you the rights and privileges of a legal US Citizen.

[Canuckster1127]

http://www.wsbtv.com/video/23438021/index.html
Watch this, the immigration law isn't about trying to stop people who want to come here and have a better life. I am all for immigration btw, it is about our own safety. Is it so wrong to ask everyone who wants to come to this country to do it the right way. Instead many come in through sneaky and underhanded ways and have no intention of being "legal" hints the sanctuary cities. Sorry, but I just can't see any logical reason why you would be against a bill that would make it so you would have to be here legally, therefore allowing you to get paid the proper amount of money for a job, and allowing you the rights and privileges of a legal US Citizen.

Wy would you assume that anyone against the bill is for illegal immigration? Ends don't necessarily justify means.

[Gabrielman]

Didn't mean to make it sound like that, sorry. But to me it seems that they are a bit softer on them. Don't get me wrong, I believe that all of those that want to be here, should have the right to do so. I just want them to do it the right way. Again, sorry if it seems like I am saying that all those against the bill support illegal immigration, that is not what I meant. We just have different views on this, and living in a border state, I am very concerned with who is around and what they might do. The bill was prompted mostly by an Arizona man being killed by a drug smuggler who was here illegally. I would not want that to happen to those here that I love. That is my reasoning behind supporting the bill.

[Canuckster1127]

I understand that and I work with the issue and see it from some different perspectives. My job supports Homeland Security.

Emotionally responding to a situation and attempting to build law or policy on that is the essence of populism and xenophobia. Reacting emotionally to a crime by an illegal immigrant is no more valid than lumping all citizens together as criminals because they are citizens. The argument that crime is impacted by illegal immigrants may be true but attempting to lump all of them together by the lowest common denominator is the heart of bigotry and not something that I want to be a part of. Human nature when times are hard looks for scapegoats. Politicians who play to that are following in the "proud" tradition of what Nazi Germany did to the Jews. I don't use that example lightly. I'm not saying we're there. I'm simply saying the same dynamic is at work and it is political dynamite that easily gets out of control even from politicians who wouldn't dare or intend to go that far. Others are waiting on the wings who will and the rhetoric now is laying the ground work for possible escalation.

Arizona's law moves into areas that state's don't have a constitutional right to do. They don't differentiate between illegals who should be given the opportunity to naturalize and remain and those who do not. All are treated the same. Further, it puts power into law enforcement agents hands that they're not trained to handle and which easily leads to profiling and the infringement of legal citizen's 4th amendment rights.

The guy who flew a plane into the IRS building was white, middle class and balding. Should be raise vigilence on white middle class balding men who can't prove citizenship in demand? How much you want to bet this breaks down along race despite assurances to the contrary?

[DannyM]

Emotionally responding to a situation and attempting to build law or policy on that is the essence of populism and xenophobia.

Bart,

That's fine, but, and I'm sure you'll agree, populist and emotional reactions do nothing to negate the fact that there "is a situation.".

[DannyM]

Emotionally responding to a situation and attempting to build law or policy on that is the essence of populism and xenophobia.

Bart,

That's fine, but, and I'm sure you'll agree, populist and emotional reactions do nothing to negate the fact that there is a "situation".

[Canuckster1127]

Of course there's a situation. And it requires action. Arizona's actions I don't agree with. I do understand and agree however that action is needed at the Federal level. The answer requires some guts and courage at the legislative level in congress to draft some legislation that deals with the entire problem and doesn't just act tough without providing amnesty or a realistic path to citizenship or legal residence for those here who are not threats (the vast majority.)

Congress is too afraid to act because it's an election year and they're (as usual) more concerned about their own sorry hides than addressing the needs of the nation.

Obama I think wants to act.

Here's his proposal.

Guiding Principles
President Obama believes that our broken immigration system can only be fixed by putting politics aside and offering a complete solution that secures our border, enforces our laws, and reaffirms our heritage as a nation of immigrants. He believes our immigration policy should be driven by our best judgment of what is in the economic interest of the United States and what is in the best interest of the American worker. President Obama recognizes that an orderly, controlled border and an immigration system designed to meet our economic needs are important pillars of a healthy and robust economy.

Strengthen Border Control
President Obama will protect the integrity of our borders by investing in additional personnel, infrastructure, and technology on the border and at our ports of entry.

Improve Our Immigration System
President Obama will fix the dysfunctional immigration bureaucracy and enable legal immigration so that families can stay together.

Remove Incentives to Enter Illegally
President Obama will remove incentives to enter the country illegally by preventing employers from hiring undocumented workers and enforcing the law.

Bring People Out of the Shadows
President Obama supports a system that allows undocumented immigrants who are in good standing to pay a fine, learn English, and go to the back of the line for the opportunity to become citizens.

Work with Mexico
President Obama will promote economic development in Mexico to decrease the economic desperation that leads to illegal immigration.

I didn't vote for Obama and I don't have a need to do anything with this but to look at the policy at face value. I agree with the overall thrust that there must be in addition to tightened enforcement, the ability to current illegals to realistically come forward in a way that allows families to remain together and remain here while paying a fine (and it should be a token one in my opinion, these are mostly poor people). Simply tightening enforcement and lumping all together and destroying families is neither an American nor a Christian value in my opinion. More importantly, it's counter-productive. Most of the illegals are here because our economy required them and our government looked the other way for years during times of prosperity because the lowest level jobs in our economy would not pay enough to hold people who had other options.

Illegal immigrants in that regard were purposely attracted and held in their situation by the fact that they couldn't aspire to legal jobs. That in part is economic exploitation and the politicians who knowingly did this (and believe me, they knew what they were doing, and they incuided both Republicans and Democrats) were morally wrong and economically irresponsible.

Arizona lacks the ability to address all sides of this issue. I understand the political strategy. They're paying as a state for Federal Policy malfeasance. So, they're drawing attention to the issue by pushing the envelope. That doesn't make it right, but it's how the game is played.

The devil will be in the details but I think Obama has most of the elements addressed here that need to be. I doubt he has to the political capital left to address this before the next election. After, he may not have the votes. This is where leadership from Obama and from the party leaders at all levels comes into play. A solution must be reached and but into effect on both sides of the equation. As I said, Arizona cannot do that. All they can do is grandstand and play to populist and xenophibic emotions. That may get new people elected but unless they have the guts to address the whole problem, all their grandstanding will go is make the problem worse. Sadly, then the answer for many of them will be to up the ante and play even stronger to emotions and that's when we're wallking the path that other nations in history have. Are we going to learn from that or repeat the mistakes?

That's what I'm saying.

[DannyM]

Of course there's a situation. And it requires action. Arizona's actions I don't agree with. I do understand and agree however that action is needed at the Federal level. The answer requires some guts and courage at the legislative level in congress to draft some legislation that deals with the entire problem and doesn't just act tough without providing amnesty or a realistic path to citizenship or legal residence for those here who are not threats (the vast majority.)

Congress is too afraid to act because it's an election year and they're (as usual) more concerned about their own sorry hides than addressing the needs of the nation.

Obama I think wants to act.

Here's his proposal.

Guiding Principles
President Obama believes that our broken immigration system can only be fixed by putting politics aside and offering a complete solution that secures our border, enforces our laws, and reaffirms our heritage as a nation of immigrants. He believes our immigration policy should be driven by our best judgment of what is in the economic interest of the United States and what is in the best interest of the American worker. President Obama recognizes that an orderly, controlled border and an immigration system designed to meet our economic needs are important pillars of a healthy and robust economy.

Strengthen Border Control
President Obama will protect the integrity of our borders by investing in additional personnel, infrastructure, and technology on the border and at our ports of entry.

Improve Our Immigration System
President Obama will fix the dysfunctional immigration bureaucracy and enable legal immigration so that families can stay together.

Remove Incentives to Enter Illegally
President Obama will remove incentives to enter the country illegally by preventing employers from hiring undocumented workers and enforcing the law.

Bring People Out of the Shadows
President Obama supports a system that allows undocumented immigrants who are in good standing to pay a fine, learn English, and go to the back of the line for the opportunity to become citizens.

Work with Mexico
President Obama will promote economic development in Mexico to decrease the economic desperation that leads to illegal immigration.

I didn't vote for Obama and I don't have a need to do anything with this but to look at the policy at face value. I agree with the overall thrust that there must be in addition to tightened enforcement, the ability to current illegals to realistically come forward in a way that allows families to remain together and remain here while paying a fine (and it should be a token one in my opinion, these are mostly poor people). Simply tightening enforcement and lumping all together and destroying families is neither an American nor a Christian value in my opinion. More importantly, it's counter-productive. Most of the illegals are here because our economy required them and our government looked the other way for years during times of prosperity because the lowest level jobs in our economy would not pay enough to hold people who had other options.

Illegal immigrants in that regard were purposely attracted and held in their situation by the fact that they couldn't aspire to legal jobs. That in part is economic exploitation and the politicians who knowingly did this (and believe me, they knew what they were doing, and they incuided both Republicans and Democrats) were morally wrong and economically irresponsible.

Arizona lacks the ability to address all sides of this issue. I understand the political strategy. They're paying as a state for Federal Policy malfeasance. So, they're drawing attention to the issue by pushing the envelope. That doesn't make it right, but it's how the game is played.

The devil will be in the details but I think Obama has most of the elements addressed here that need to be. I doubt he has to the political capital left to address this before the next election. After, he may not have the votes. This is where leadership from Obama and from the party leaders at all levels comes into play. A solution must be reached and but into effect on both sides of the equation. As I said, Arizona cannot do that. All they can do is grandstand and play to populist and xenophibic emotions. That may get new people elected but unless they have the guts to address the whole problem, all their grandstanding will go is make the problem worse. Sadly, then the answer for many of them will be to up the ante and play even stronger to emotions and that's when we're wallking the path that other nations in history have. Are we going to learn from that or repeat the mistakes?

That's what I'm saying.

That's fine, you make some sense.

Just to pick an example:

"President Obama believes that our broken immigration system can only be fixed by putting politics aside and offering a complete solution that secures our border, enforces our laws, and reaffirms our heritage as a nation of immigrants. He believes our immigration policy should be driven by our best judgment of what is in the economic interest of the United States and what is in the best interest of the American worker. President Obama recognizes that an orderly, controlled border and an immigration system designed to meet our economic needs are important pillars of a healthy and robust economy."

First off, please forgive any ignorance. How much does the US depend on immigration for its economy? And is this dependence warranted, e.g. are all 'current' Americans in employment, and welfare dependency low?

[Canuckster1127]

That's a good question Danny.

You have to look at the jobs that the majority of these illegals are "taking away from Americans."

First off, the problem we're facing in the US now with illegals is not new. It grew while economic times were good because unemployment was low. The jobs taken by this workforce are primarily backbreaking physical labor which have economically gone at minumum wage or less. Illegals who are paid under the table in cash aren't in a position to file complaints and you better believe that is taken advantage of by many.

The reality is that many of the jobs that are cited now by those who say the illegals are taking American jobs are talking about migrant harvest workers, domestic positions, landscaping jobs etc. Are some of these more attractive now to the American workforce? Yes. A lot of them however still go begging. Further our economy has benefitted by food costs (just an example) being kept artificially low. The other side of it, of course, is that costs have been shifted to other areas. The underground illegal community has no social programs and cannot participate in benefits traditionally taken for granted (like health care) and so they've gone to emergency rooms and eschewed preventative care and the costs have been greater overall to the american economy than if these jobs were elevated to wage and benefit levels that might attract the average American unemployed worker. Don't hold your breath however. A lot of people still will choose unemployment over taking these type of jobs. It's not as simple as just rounding up all these illegal workers and putting them on a bus back to Mexico. Without reform the impact economically of such an act would be negative and food costs would rise and the current economic situation be exacerbated. Without government wholescale policy involvement in addition to these other actions, are that would happen is that these tasks would be disrupted, the demand and incentive for Mexican workers to come back would remain and all that's been accomplished is a disruption to our economy and a great deal of human suffering to the families of these workers, many of whom would be forced economically to leave their children in the US where they are considered US citizens by our laws while their parents are deported. Who bears the cost of that? US taxpayers and in many cases the costs would be greater than any positive economic impact. Face it, the average US worker simply isn't going to take agricultural jobs even if the pay and benefits raised substantially.

Populism proposes easy solutions to problems based on emotional appeal. When jobs are scarce and times are hard, it's the easiest thing in the world for politicians to point to illegal immigration and get an emotional response on how these "criminals" (an inaccurate and highly charged word) take away jobs from "hard working americans". The jobs taken away in fact, artifically support our economy by doing things like keeping food costs low. When illegal labor is no longer an option then costs will raise hurting the very people who are now entering the minimum wage job market and have to pay those costs for their own support and that of their family. It's a vicious circle and it requires wholescale involvement of social and economic policy to accomplish. In fact, many of our policies and practices in the past created this situation and not only attracted these illegal workers, but we knew what we were doing while it was happening and we chose not to act because our economy required this cheap labor and our own people would not and in many cases could not take these jobs and make a livable wage and live at a standard even at the poverty level.

[DannyM]

Bart, thanks for your thoughtful reply. I'm away from the desk for a bit now, so will be back later.

Danny

[DannyM]

Bart,

The problems you describe are not dissimilar to the UK, though I'm sure on a much larger scale. If I had a pound for every time I have heard an Englishman complain about immigrants taking jobs away from the British workers my bank account would be looking pretty nice right now; hey, once upon I used to say the same thing, ignorant of the fact that many Brits are simply too comfortable or lazy on benefits to even bother with low-paid work, jobs which many class as being 'beneath them.' And in reality it wouldn't make them much better off than what the welfare state is willing to hand over to them. And that brings us to incentive to get these people out to work, coupled with a no nonsense attitude towards the abuse of the welfare system.

Of course there are some genuine concerns for the UK with regards immigration, but I won't go into detail and derail the thread. But I wanted to get across that I can identify with much of what you are saying. Where there is a place for immigration, then it should be welcomed. But I think the balance needs to be struck between getting able, out-of-work US citizens into work, thus simultaneously lifting a burden off the welfare system and bolstering the economy somewhat, and also encouraging immigration where it is needed. Of course a firm government is required for this.

The issue of an amnesty for illegal immigrants who are there and have families established is a sensitive one. The instinctive reaction for me is to think it unfair that their children can be uprooted and sent away, having started their schooling and establishing friends, etc.; or equally as bad that families should be split if the children remain and parents are sent away. But it is a dangerous precedent to set, sending entirely the wrong message out and leaving yourself open to further abuse.

I don't mean to interfere too much, just taking a keen interest as I recognise some similarities here with the UK.

Danny