America. A Christian nation?

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Re: America. A Christian nation?

Post by RickD »

RickD wrote:
Silvertusk wrote:It solves a lot of problems though - the NHS means that anyone suffering from Cancer can get treatment. Ok there are some issues that might involve travelling, and there are waiting lists - but everyone can get treatment. People who are richer can go private anyway to avoid some of the NHS pitfalls. Dental care is free up to a certain age and then for certain groups.

Basically the idea of someone in America suffering in pain that an operation can fix - but they can't afford it - does not seem right to me at all. Denying people treatment if they do not have insurance is cruel and evil and it surprises me that a Christian Country such as America can do that.

Silvertusk
Well, here we go again! A Christian Country? Are you serious? When you say "Christian", you must mean some generic form of "Christian". Correct? If we are a Christian Country, is Pres. Obama our "Pastor"?
This is what my posts started from. Silvertusk said that it surprises him that a Christian Country Denies people treatment if they do not have insurance. So, I got the impression from his post that he was talking about Hospitals, or Government being the Christian part of our country. Who else would he be referring to? Who does he claim is doing the denying? It certainly isn't the population, is it?
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Re: America. A Christian nation?

Post by RickD »

Byblos wrote:
RickD wrote:I'd like to find out what different people believe on this question. You can give proofs or just opinions on why you believe The United States of America is or isn't a Christian nation. I believe It's a nation founded on many Biblical principles, but at present is only a nominally Christian nation. Thanks
Perhaps the OP needs to make it more clear what his intent was. Did he mean America was founded as a Christian nation or did he mean America was founded based on Christian principles? Two different things.

Either way though, to go back to where the point of contention was (as far as I remember), the majority in the U.S. claim to believe in God and claim to be Christian. Rick disputed that and said that no, America is nominally Christian so it can't be viewed as a Christian nation (I guess meaning with a majority Christian population). My question to him was well how can you possibly tell that most of these self-professed Christians aren't really Christian. So it all started not with the claim that America was a Christian nation (obviously it is not, otherwise it'd be a theocracy) but with the idea that even though the majority professes to be Christan, America still can't be seen as a majority Christian nation.
Byblos, my intent was to get other people to tell why our country isn't Christian, so my lazy butt wouldn't have to search for myself. Also to show that the majority of people on this forum agree with me. I do agree with anyone who says that the majority of the population claims some form of Christianity as their religion. If, as some polls suggest, 90% of Americans are 'true" Christians, then we shouldn't even witness or tell anyone in America the Gospel, because 90% are already saved anyway.
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Re: America. A Christian nation?

Post by RickD »

DannyM wrote:
jlay wrote:More cut and paste rhetoric.
I know and you know. We all know that the FFs were influenced by their Christian heritage. Agreed.
However, what we are talking about is whether the country was founded as a Christian nation. Not, was it founded by Christians. If someone says a prayer before a football game, is it a Christian ballgame? If all the players are Christian, is it a Christian ballgame. No, it is a ballgame that Christians are participating in.
Your analogies are just bogus. How do you define a Christian nation? Is your definition exclusive to you, and anyone who agrees with the same definition? A nation founded on Christian principles can rightly be called a Christian nation. Is the game of football founded on Christian principles? When you label something as "rhetoric" it would help any case you think you might have by actually presenting something resembling an argument. Otherwise your post just smacks of empty- wait for it - rhetoric.
Danny, you say a nation founded on Christian principles can rightly be called a Christian nation. Is that true for a business founded on Christian principles? Amway was founded on Christian principles, does that make Amway a Christian company?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
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Re: America. A Christian nation?

Post by jlay »

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

I too used to argue the position that America is a Christian nation. And I too used to quote the same sources. However, I sadly had to concede that my position was wrong. I still maintain that America was a nation of Christians. Some really messed up Christians. Afterall, our "Christian" nation was established at the expense of deplorable acts perpetrated on its true natives and enslaving and brutalizing a entire race of people. That is afterall, the Christian thing to do. (Sarcasm)
No matter how many founders were church members, or prayed, etc. doesn't change the fact that our country was not established as a Christian nation. It was established as a free nation. Free from the tyranny of England. If you tried to prove otherwise in a court of law, you would lose. Did our founding fathers follow these verses?
Romans 13:1
Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
Or,
1 Peter 2:13
Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority.

No, they rebelled. And they put it in writing and evoked God's name in doing so. Why? Because of religious persecution? No. TAXES!! History tends to romanticize things. And no question we've all been romanticized in our teaching.
A nation founded on Christian principles can rightly be called a Christian nation.
Just were are these principles?
The brutal truth is that socialism would closer representent Christian principles. Acts 2:45. Although it lacks the pure heart motive to do such. Does the Constitution seek to redistribute the wealth according to this verse? Does it seek to set up the teaching of Christianity? Does it seek to establish the worship of Christ as Lord and Savior? No
Does it seek to restrict divorce according to what Jesus espoused? No. In fact it left such matters up to the individual states. I have read through parts of many confessions of faith, and I can tell you first hand, that they do not resemble the Constitution or DOI at all.

I know what makes Iran an Islamic nation. It is not because Muslims make up the majority of the population. It is because the nation is actually founded in Islamic doctrine. Not that Muslim men wrote a constitution, but that the government derives its power from Islam itself. A theocracy.

Danny, I have made it clear in earlier post, for someone to post anything from the DOI or constitution that directly evokes the bible, specifically the NT. They can't, because it doesn't. A vague reference to nature's God, is far from this. The constitution, the document that actually establishes government, doesn't even do that much. No reference to God, the bible, Christ, etc. Nothing, zilch, nada. In fact our FFs were diligent to make sure that government played no role in the establishment of religion. How can a document that makes such claims, do the opposite. Simple, it doesn't.

"America is composed of Christians. Therefore America is a Christian nation." If this is your conclusion, I honestly have no probelme with that. That is perfectly fine. My problem is when posters attempt to falsely establish the founding documents as supporting such. They DO NOT. In a republic, the majority rules. So, if you want to use this premise to say that America is a Christian nation have at it. But keep in mind it doesn't carry much weight. Unelss you are defining a country by a census poll. If the majority of America is white, would you say, America is a white nation. All the FFs were white, and we are still composed of mainly white people? That is fine and well. It just isn't the same as saying our founding fathers established the USA as a Christian nation. This is false. If they did so, they failed to include it in the founding documents.

Perhaps, as Canuckster stated, we are differing on our symantics.
However, my experience is that many if not most are trying to argue that Christianity has some specific establishment as the religion of the United States. When in fact the Constitution prohibits that very thing.
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Re: America. A Christian nation?

Post by DannyM »

RickD wrote:Silvertusk said that it surprises him that a Christian Country Denies people treatment if they do not have insurance. So, I got the impression from his post that he was talking about Hospitals, or Government being the Christian part of our country. Who else would he be referring to? Who does he claim is doing the denying? It certainly isn't the population, is it?
No. Silvertusk was talking about a Christian "country" denying people treatment. He made no mention of government or hospitals being Christian. Let's go back ...
RickD wrote:Have you ever lived in America? I wouldn't classify it as a Christian country. A country where we are free to worship as Christians. A country where people are free to not worship as Christians if they choose. There is no "Church of America". Part of the reason America was founded was to get away from the "christian" nation that our founders left. I hope the freedom to worship here as we wish, is never taken away by our becoming a "christian nation".
You've still given no explanation for what you meant by "Part of the reason America was founded was to get away from the "christian" nation that our founders left." ...

I'd like to know what you are referring to by talk of a small-c "Christian country" ...?
RickD wrote:The Country our founding fathers left was a "christian" nation with a small c. It was not a nation of people who were born-again believers. Neither is The United States.
Again, to which country are you referring, and how do you know it "was not a nation of people who were born-again believers"? And how do you know that the United States is "not a nation of people who were born-again believers"?

Your gripe is clearly not with government and hospitals being Christian but your fellow citizens who profess to be Christian. So, how did you get to this conclusion, and how many of America's non-Christian Christians are there?
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Re: America. A Christian nation?

Post by RickD »

Danny, what country did our founders leave? It was England, which could be categorized as a christian nation. That's all I meant.
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-Edward R Murrow




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Re: America. A Christian nation?

Post by RickD »

DannyM wrote:
RickD wrote:Silvertusk said that it surprises him that a Christian Country Denies people treatment if they do not have insurance. So, I got the impression from his post that he was talking about Hospitals, or Government being the Christian part of our country. Who else would he be referring to? Who does he claim is doing the denying? It certainly isn't the population, is it?
No. Silvertusk was talking about a Christian "country" denying people treatment. He made no mention of government or hospitals being Christian. Let's go back ...
RickD wrote:Have you ever lived in America? I wouldn't classify it as a Christian country. A country where we are free to worship as Christians. A country where people are free to not worship as Christians if they choose. There is no "Church of America". Part of the reason America was founded was to get away from the "christian" nation that our founders left. I hope the freedom to worship here as we wish, is never taken away by our becoming a "christian nation".
You've still given no explanation for what you meant by "Part of the reason America was founded was to get away from the "christian" nation that our founders left." ...

I'd like to know what you are referring to by talk of a small-c "Christian country" ...?
RickD wrote:The Country our founding fathers left was a "christian" nation with a small c. It was not a nation of people who were born-again believers. Neither is The United States.
Again, to which country are you referring, and how do you know it "was not a nation of people who were born-again believers"? And how do you know that the United States is "not a nation of people who were born-again believers"?
Danny, all one has to do to "know" our founding fathers were not born-again Christians is to read their writings, and look into what Freemasonry is. Many of the ff were freemasons, a very anti-Christ organization. If you are saying that I think the original immigrants weren't born-again Christian, I never said that. I was just talking about the ff. 17th century England was just as much a christian nation as the USA is today. Neither one is.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




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Re: America. A Christian nation?

Post by DannyM »

jlay wrote:No matter how many founders were church members, or prayed, etc. doesn't change the fact that our country was not established as a Christian nation. It was established as a free nation. Free from the tyranny of England.
Agreed. The tyranny of England was the theocratic rule which diluted the pure gospel. This was indeed a spiritual battle between a compromised state church and a pure gospel church.
A nation founded on Christian principles can rightly be called a Christian nation.
jlay wrote:Just were are these principles?
DannyM wrote:"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." DOI
DannyM wrote:"All men are created equal" is a fundamental Christian principle. Christ exalted the lowly man. All men are equal in the eyes of God. 1 Corinthians 1:27-29 "But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things- and the things that are not - to nullify the things that are, so that no-one may boast before Him."
"All men are created equal" is a CHRISTIAN principle. I've said this about three times now. 1 Corinthians 1:27-29 is direct support for the DOI drawing from Christianity.
jlay wrote:Danny, I have made it clear in earlier post, for someone to post anything from the DOI or constitution that directly evokes the bible, specifically the NT. They can't, because it doesn't.
I just have.
jlay wrote:A vague reference to nature's God, is far from this. The constitution, the document that actually establishes government, doesn't even do that much. No reference to God, the bible, Christ, etc. Nothing, zilch, nada. In fact our FFs were diligent to make sure that government played no role in the establishment of religion. How can a document that makes such claims, do the opposite. Simple, it doesn't.
The constitutional separation of church and state can be seen as a fundamental desire to prevent any specific form of Christianity from defining the establishment, after the manner of the Church of England, widely regarded as corrupt and degenerate by American republicans. This takes nothing away from, and frankly SUPPORTS, the argument that the founding fathers' Christianity played a deep role in establishing that great nation. A nation founded on the principle of all men being created equal is indeed a nation founded on a purely Christian principle. All are equal in the eyes of God. "He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things- and the things that are not - to nullify the things that are, so that no-one may boast before Him." It is embedded in the DOI and it is drawn from none other than Christianity.
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Re: America. A Christian nation?

Post by DannyM »

RickD wrote:Danny, what country did our founders leave? It was England, which could be categorized as a christian nation. That's all I meant.
Rick, this is the biggest false statement I think I have ever read. England was a Christian country, and your small-c fetish is just odd. Do you have any idea why your founding fathers "left" England?
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Re: America. A Christian nation?

Post by DannyM »

RickD wrote:Danny, you say a nation founded on Christian principles can rightly be called a Christian nation. Is that true for a business founded on Christian principles? Amway was founded on Christian principles, does that make Amway a Christian company?
Rick, comparing the founding of a nation to the founding of a business within a nation is quite bizarre. But, nevertheless, can you show me the foundational documents of Amway and I'll read them and give you an opinion on them...
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Re: America. A Christian nation?

Post by jlay »

Danny,

The constition never mentions seperation of church and state. NEVER.

Please tell why the founding fathers left England? Before you answer, you do know George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were born in Va.? Benjamin Franklin and John Adams were born in Boston. Do you know how many founding fathers left England?
This was indeed a spiritual battle between a compromised state church and a pure gospel church.
What was a spiritual battle? IF you are stating that the formation of the USA was to establish a pure gospel church, then you are a revisionist, and spreading untruths.
"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
What verse is that in the Bible? Where are these rights listed? Did the Canaanites know about this?
"All men are created equal" is a CHRISTIAN principle.
If you could even claim that "all men are created equal" is a Christian principle, how does that influence establish the USA as a Christian nation?
1 Corinthians 1:27-29 is direct support for the DOI drawing from Christianity.
Other than just claiming this, can you provide any such context to draw from. Notes from when this verse was drafted, etc, that reference this verse as inspiration.? Beautiful verse, but I fail to draw the connection that you are implying.
I just have.
Uh, no you have not. You have provided nothing from the bible or NT. Zero. Circular reasoning, maybe.
A nation founded on the principle of all men being created equal is indeed a nation founded on a purely Christian principle.

Says you. Danny, How many times can I say this. I too believe the FFs were influence by their Christian heritage. That is not what we are arguing. Christian influence does not make the nation Christian. Please provide something that proves this concept is implemented to establish the USA as a Christian nation. Can non-Christians benefit from this equality? What if you don't beleive in a creator. Can you still be an American?
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Re: America. A Christian nation?

Post by DannyM »

My mistake- I must have been thinking of the early settlers when talking of the Puritan rebellion.
"All men are created equal" is a CHRISTIAN principle.
jlay wrote:If you could even claim that "all men are created equal" is a Christian principle, how does that influence establish the USA as a Christian nation?
Because it is a fundamental Christian principle. I don't know what else you want me to say. It's there in the DOI.
1 Corinthians 1:27-29 is direct support for the DOI drawing from Christianity.
jlay wrote:Other than just claiming this, can you provide any such context to draw from. Notes from when this verse was drafted, etc, that reference this verse as inspiration.? Beautiful verse, but I fail to draw the connection that you are implying.
I've given you scripture, and you want me to try to find a direct quote from an founding father to ease your scepticism? So you don't agree with 1 Corinthians 1:27-29? I'm saying that the idea of all men being created equal in the eyes of God is a Christian principle. I've given you scripture to back this up. If you do not agree, then fine, but scripture is scripture. In fact, I urge you to show me how Christ DID NOT exalt the lowly man and make man equal ...
I just have.
jlay wrote:Uh, no you have not. You have provided nothing from the bible or NT. Zero. Circular reasoning, maybe..


What circular reasoning? Jlay, if you cannot see this statement in the DOI as being directly linked to Christianity then I'm sorry. I, however, can and it sits there, nice and snug in the DOI. Right before your eyes.
A nation founded on the principle of all men being created equal is indeed a nation founded on a purely Christian principle.

jlay wrote:Says you. Danny, How many times can I say this. I too believe the FFs were influence by their Christian heritage. That is not what we are arguing. Christian influence does not make the nation Christian. Please provide something that proves this concept is implemented to establish the USA as a Christian nation. Can non-Christians benefit from this equality? What if you don't beleive in a creator. Can you still be an American?
I think we simply differ on what a Christian nation is. I can handle that. I actually don't really care. But to deny that "all men are created equal" is a Christian principle seems to me to be denying the nose on your face. The large majority of the founding fathers were Christian. In the very opening of the DOI sits a fundamentally Christian principle. This is where we proceed from. Slavery was indeed abolished with this very same principle at the heart of the abolishionist movement. Why deny the truth? Just to prop up your argument? So we have a nation founded by Christians on a very Christian principle. We have an overwhelmingly Christian population. Now, if it is not a Christian country then what is it? Secular? It's certainly not a theocracy, and a good job too. And God bless Americans, too, for being a tolerant people, respectful of all faiths and creeds ... another admirable Christian trait.
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Re: America. A Christian nation?

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein »

From The Declaration of Independence (of the USA):

A DECLARATION BY THE REPRESENTATIVES OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IN CONGRESS ASSEMBLED, JULY 4, 1776

When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume, among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to separation.

That was the opening paragraph. On lines 7 to 9 of the Declaration (the second paragraph), we find the famous phrase, We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inailenable rights; that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

-Lines 10 to 28 go on to elaborate why lines 7 to 9 are self-evident. (I have the DOI in my home.) Every word of lines 10-28 is consistent with Christianity.
-Lines 29 to 108 explain the reasons for the USA's desire for independence, and this is the concluding paragraph:

We, therefore, the representatives of the United States assembled, appealing the the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name, and by the authority of the good people of these colonies, solemnly publish and declare, that these united colonies are, and of right ought to be, free and independent states;...And, for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honour.

Read between the lines! You'll see that Christianity is there as the guiding principle. Atheism (in any of its putrid forms) would never, ever, ever have produced such a nation as the USA.

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Re: America. A Christian nation?

Post by Canuckster1127 »

Sepaaration of Church and State was a phrase coined by Thomas Jefferson in his letter to the Danbury Baptists. As I mentioned earlier, the 1800 presidential election as well as the 1804 election were among some of the most hotly contested in American History. John Adams supporters went to great lengths to represent Jeffereson as an atheist (the kiss of death in a nation of Christians) and also that he had fathered children with his slave Sally Hemings who also happened to be the half-sister of his deceased wife. Jefferson denied this. Recenly DNA tests appear to confirm that this was highly likely although some claim it was another member of the Jefferson Family.

But I digress.

Jeffereson was not directly involved with the writing of the Constitution as he was in France and the time. He certainly had influence however through some of his writings and correspondence although not as much as John Adams who wrote books on the subject while in France and then in England which influenced it writing. Jefferson was asked by a group of baptist in Danbury about his views in areas that concerned him and he responded with a letter that he fully expected and even counted upon being made public.

Here's the letter:

http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danpre.html
Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists
The Final Letter, as Sent

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.
The baptists at Danbury were particularly concerned because Connecticut, where they were located was one of the states which had an established endorsed church. This was the congregationalist church. While the Federal government was barred by the Constitution from doing something like this, states were not. So, baptists in Connecticut were subjected to taxes and fees which went to the support of the Congregationalist church. Their letter to Jefferson was to solicit his support in conjunction with a petition they were putting together. John Adams, Jefferson's opponent in the Presidential election in 1800 was a congregationalist and Jefferson was solidly defeated in the Northeast. He still looked for support there hoping to be reelected in 1804 by a higher margin than what took place in 1800 which was razor thin.

Jefferson also had precedent for some concern in this area as he campaigned with Virginia tirelessly to establish religious freedom in that colony and later the state. He was strongly opposed to the episcopalian/anglican church being supported by a church tax, believing it was unconsionable for non anglicans to have to support a church that they were not a part of.

Jefferson responded as this represented an opportunity for him to gather support in Connecticut and also because it rang true for him to support the baptists cause. The state he was referring to in his letter was Connecticut, not the federal gov't which had already passed the first amendment. Jefferson was not anti-religion however many concerns he had with state churches and the clergy of organized churches. His wall of separation statement was designed not to protect the state in this case but to promote the rights of these baptists to not be forced to support a church they didn't attend or agree with their doctrine and practices.

It's a far cry from how the term is used today. It's a phrase that is different today than it was when it was coined.
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Re: America. A Christian nation?

Post by Gman »

jlay wrote:Gman,

You are saying Christian thinking influenced the founding fathers, and I think we all agree with that. Regardless of Blackstone's faith, His commentaries are NOT the bible. The founding documents do not quote or evoke the Bible in any way shape or form.

Israel is a Jewish nation. Iran is a Muslim nation. How do we know this?
Please, please, please, someone tell me how America is a Christian nation? The majority of people I work with are Christians. Does this make my business a 'Christian' business?
What? Where did I ever say that the Blackstone commentaries were the Bible? I said that they mimicked the Bible teachings.. :doh:
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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