Russian Jet Shot Down by Syrian Rebels

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Re: Russian Jet Shot Down by Syrian Rebels

Postby Kurieuo » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:04 pm

Philip wrote:I sincerely hope you're wrong.

They'd never get Congress to approve it, or to send troops to fill any resulting power vacuum. Iraq opened a lot of Americans eyes to the folly of such.

Watch what Lindsay Graham's response is.

I'd love to be wrong, but sadly, doesn't look like I am. I can't find Lindsey's response?

People expect the government would have learnt lessons from Iraq, but what exactly are those lessons? If we're to remove any sort of morality from the equation, which I'm sure is often done by intelligence agencies in pursuit of a country's best interests, then dethroning Assad and de-stabilising Syria would be seen as being in the US' best interests (as well as Israel's).

Having control of Syria would come with many economic spoils, strengthen America's (and Israel's) military foothold in the Middle East, and cause a headache for Iran who'd be next in line for the proxy wars that I see the US wages through military groups that it trains and supports. Iran, however, unlike other states (such as Syria and Libya), kind of have it coming. Iran would be recieving tit-for-tat due to the proxy war it waged/wages against Israel via Hezbollah. Many in Iran also revile the US. So then, strategic-wise, destabilisation of Syria albeit without ISIS in control, would be seen as largely beneficial to US' future national interests. I think the US was hoping ISIS would get Assad though, then they could clean up ISIS and look like the good guys. Instead, due to Russian intervention, it's now the other way round.

As Christians, we do see lessons learnt in Iraq around the pain and suffering caused to people, and then uprising of ISIS which inflicted pain and suffering amongst people including our brothers and sisters in Syria, and so we have a different perspective that rises above national interests. We want the well-being of people everywhere, but I think it's a bit naive to expect those governing our countries to follow the Christian love your neighbour as yourself mantra, and particularly love your enemies like Christ taught would be seen as a bit of a joke.
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Re: Russian Jet Shot Down by Syrian Rebels

Postby Kurieuo » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:50 pm

If you've been following the most recent news, Syrian forces going to help the YPG (Kurds) in Afrin against Turkey, it seems contrary to what the Western media portrays of Assad seeking the destruction of his Syrian people.

Why do I say this? Well, let me rewind a number of years. Before I became more acquainted with what was going on, I just bought into the line that Assad was a dictator and the like. I really didn't care much, it was "all over there", the Middle East is just messed up, that's generally what I felt and thought. Then as ISIS started slaughtering people, and I became more aware of the Christian plight (and Syrians in general), what happened in Libya, revisiting what happened in Iraq and the like, I felt sympathy for the people (given Australia is a close US ally) and just wanted to know the truth more.

Over time, it became more obvious to me that the West would run certain narratives, ignoring others to do with US-Western meddling, arming of certain groups and the like. We always like to think we, our countries, always take the moral highground, but that didn't seem to be the case to me. The narrative that Assad used chemical weapons on his own people, such made zero sense, he always denied, and really there were only negatives for Assad and the current Syrian government. It seemed more likley that it was a "false flag" instigated to try inspire civil unrest in the people, strengthen external militant groups who were entering into Syria to overthrow the Syrian government. Many of these groups were affiliated with Al-Qaeda, yet seeing a recording of an Al Nusra leader saying they were trained and armed by the US really cemented that the US was fighting proxy wars via different militant groups, dealing the the "devil" so-to-speak, in order to try topple Assad. In fact, the pattern of what was happening in Syria seemed to be a re-play of Libya and Iraq before.

Now, Mattis has admitted the U.S. has no evidence of Assad using sarin gas at any time, which covers both Assad's alleged use of chemical weapons in 2013 as well as the 2017 incident that Trump struck back with missiles for. France too recently admitted that there is no tangible evidence of a Syrian chemical attack. In fact, the sources which said Assad did use chemical weapons, were likely those same groups wanting to topple Assad. That these were simply "false flags" used, seems to be the most plausible scenario.

Now, we know how much the Kurds (YPG and SDF) hate the Syrian army right? I mean the Syrian army recently lost over a 100 men or the like to them, as the US supported the SDF against the Syrian forces. Yet, the SDF (YPG groups rebranded under a new name) are also now going north to help their YPG comrades against Turkey. So then, what do we think Assad would do? I would have thought the best move would have been to let Turkey wipe out the YPG entirely from the north, and then after, reclaim the Syrian territory. HOWEVER, in a move of diplomacy that I think is both brilliant and forgiving, the Syrian forces it has been said have gone to support the YPG in Afren against Turkey. I believe this open hand has been offered before by the Syrian government, but was previously rejected.

Why would Assad do this? It really goes against the dictator narrative of Assad we have in the West. You know, the one of Assad being like Satan, a tyrant who doesn't care about his people and will do everything to destroy those in opposition. Actions to me speak louder here. There are many Syrian people in Afrin, and other areas, and the Syrian army going there to help the YPG/SDF will help stop many Syrian people dying. The benefits though, are also great as I see diplomacy-wise. For, the US has been supporting the YPG (aka Kurds in Northern Syria) this whole time. The Kurdish-led SDF have spoken about coming for Assad. So for Syria to side with the YPG is a REALLY BIG change in alliances. I'd have thought if anything, Syria would have enjoyed seeing Turkey clear their northorn territrories, and then just reclaiming the likes of Afrin thereafter. BUT no, the Syrian government appears to have acted in the best interest of its people.

Syria's intervention will likely also allow many YPG to escape with their lives, and Turkey will likely withdraw provided the YPG are disarmed and the Syrian government assumes control (for the threat Turkey sees will have been neutralised, and I think Turkey does wish to respect Syria's territory). Further, the US' last card to be played (although perhaps there is one I've missed), of utilising the Kurds to help topple Assad has been neutralised. Funny, it wasn't the US who ended up coming to the aid of the Kurds in their time of need, but rather an enemy who they had been seeking to destroy.

While I dislike many things the YPG have done, in using child and women soldiers, disarming and then disbanding Syrian towns who were then left at the "mercy" of ISIS, and various other stories people are likely unaware to here, the Syrian government here is really showing themselves, in my opinion, as taking the higher moral ground. Who knows, it may even lead, finally, to peace coming to the region, although such is probably too much to hope for.

If any part of what I've written above is believed to be inaccurate or wrong, please provide references so I can read and evaluate. I'm always open to revising my beliefs on these matters, being challenged, for such is how I learn more about the truth.
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Re: Russian Jet Shot Down by Syrian Rebels

Postby Philip » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:13 pm

It's an exceptionally complex situation. Bad guys on every corner. Which is why the West gets caught up in trying to pick an entity to help, often ending up with bad results. But it's always the usual suspects that stir this stuff up. The Persians, various Islamists, the Russians. It's difficult to see what Russia thinks is in this for them - because while they are important players, they've gotten sucked right back into a civil war. And Iran's leaders are madmen - their own people can't afford bread and milk, and yet they are spending vast millions on mayhem. And then there's always former enemies becoming friendemies - that is, until they defeat some entity they both despise - then it'll be right back to the same stuff. Russia and Putin want to be world players, but they don't have the money to do it. I don't think they could fight a long, traditional war. Course, they have nukes and lots of tactical weapons. But their days of empire are likely behind them. Everyone despises them.

I think we best be careful about applying Christ's principles of how to treat other people to warfare situations - nations have every right to fight or align with whatever partner they they helps keep them safe - not saying the West and U.S. haven't made colossal mistakes in the MIddle East - sure they have. But Muslim nations, and particularly nowadays, are very unstable - anything could happen. And so many of those nations have played nice with the fundies amongst them, until they've realized the monster they've help develop. And that Sunni/ Shia divide is as volatile as ever.

I predict the Mullahs in Iran are going to fall, which might set off a civil war. Or, it could happen rather quickly. Iran and Russian - demon leaders in both! Iran's leaders are widely hated, and they are blinded by their evil religion. Immense problem is, the one thing that holds Middleastern societies together is Islam - which is greatly divided across it. There is no one entity that could police a power vacuum that produces widespread violence - except perhaps in various militaries. Egypt almost imploded due to the fanatics. It's armed forces did them all a huge favor. So I don't believe in clean narratives about the region - it's all a tangle. What is in ANY of the media are just bits and pieces of the big picture. I'm a big believer in containment of the spreading of the violence within certain areas. Let them fight it out, but don't let it spill over into a huge, regional conflict. Don't intervene or occupy unless TOTALLY necessary. Tribal societies are always going to be engaged in ongoing warfare - just like before the pre-Columbus Americas. There are always the ambitious opportunists who think they can win and conquer. And the more bunched together in land areas opposing tribes are, the more the mayhem.

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Re: Russian Jet Shot Down by Syrian Rebels

Postby Blessed » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:39 pm

Philip wrote:
I predict the Mullahs in Iran are going to fall, which might set off a civil war. Or, it could happen rather quickly. Iran and Russian - demon leaders in both!



Iran just wants to be left alone.

Vladimir Putin is a good King. And a dedicated Christian.

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Re: Russian Jet Shot Down by Syrian Rebels

Postby Kurieuo » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:55 pm

Iran wants to be left alone, while waging war against Israel via its proxy Hezbollah.

Consider that Russia have rebuked Iran, stating they won’t accept the statements that Israel should be destroyed and wiped off the map. Consider also that it is Europe who seems to want to protect Iran from Trump's desired economic sanctions aimed at disrupting any nuclear program (unlike Obama before him).

So Iran is perhaps next in line to be targeted, but they placed targets on their own backs. Then again, it could also be Lebanon. Maybe both at the same time.
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Re: Russian Jet Shot Down by Syrian Rebels

Postby Philip » Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:22 am

Hopefully, Blessed's last comments were meant as sarcasm.


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