Vegas shooting...?

Discussions about politics and goings on around the world. (Please keep discussions civil!)
User avatar
Philip
Board Moderator
Posts: 5799
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:45 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Betwixt the Sea and the Mountains

Re: Vegas shooting...?

Postby Philip » Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:38 am

IF, I lived in a country where guns were not yet abundant or relatively rare, I would be for much more restrictive gun laws. And, in such places, murderers would just go old school: Knives, swords, baseball bats, poison, axes, strangling - with the important difference, they couldn't kill large numbers of people quickly.

User avatar
Kurieuo
Technical Admin
Posts: 8996
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 6:25 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Progressive Creationist
Location: Qld, Australia

Re: Vegas shooting...?

Postby Kurieuo » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:34 am

neo-x wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:In America, it is the right of the people to protect themselves against the Government (right of revolution). Such would be unheard of in many other nations, whether Singapore, Australia, Japan, Middle Eastern and many European states. Should the Government overstep and become tyrannical, then it is a constitutional right of the people can rise up and overthrow.

Such is deeply embedded in the minds of many Americans, bound up in their history of the American Revolution where they fought for freedom and overthrew Brittish rule. Whether wrong or right, such is enshrined and considered sacred to many Americans, one of the highest forms of patriotism is the right of the people to bare arms and revolt against tyranny whether an outside force or their own government.

So then, a solution where the US Government just disarms all citizens like say Australia supposedly did many years back? Such may reduce the crime rates with mass shootings, I'm positive it would. Yet, I guarantee if this happened in the US, there would be a civil war on, many would rise up with arms to revolt against and try overthrow the government. Such would be like throwing down a "red flag", which might very well destablise the country. I hear there are many fringe groups, very patriotic types, who are preparing for the time when the government tries to do such a thing.

It is important for outsiders like us to understand this culture. I have no affiliation to America or its historical foundation, so it is easy for me as an outsider to comment on what would be better. If I put myself in the shoes of an American who feels extremely patriotic though, built upon the history and what birthed the United States, I can see why many do not wish to give up their arms. Any attempt to take them away would be seen as an attack on their freedom. They would not peacefully tolerate the government doing this. I can imagine some states might even secede and become divided again if the White House were to make such demands.


Well noted, K. I can understand what you are saying. I am, perhaps, baffled at the idea that everyone is expected to behave responsibly with a firearm, which in the case of America in particular, has proven to be absurd. The cost of bearing those arms seems a lot higher and unfair, compared to a calamity which might not even occur.

Question is then, how do you root out this fear? Or should it remain to be what it is at the moment, and we see people die over and over for the sake of a liberty that's causing more harm than good?

To be honest, it seems paranoia (perhaps equally depicted and reinforced in the media as a doomsday scenario) to me for the reason that none of the other countries has turned tyrannical because their people gave up the right to carry arms.

Can fear be rooted out of the world? Such pre-supposes bigger questions to do with how one sees the world, meaning, purpose and the like.

If God doesn't exist, then why I suppose logically it really doesn't matter either way as long as I'm comfortable and not affected. The threat that I might be affected at some future point seems distant and doesn't motivate me enough to even bother. So, with the Las Vegas event, I might be like, "yeah tragic, but it doesn't really directly impact my life so..." *shrug* Of course, we all carry the natural law within us, so even if I believe God doesn't exist I'll feel moral outrage and the like about such, but at the end of the day I have my own finite life I'm currently living and must care for.

For myself, I obviously will respond to your question/s with a rather Christian response. Isn't it love we believe that casts out fear? Christ demonstrated His love to us unto death. I think for us, it starts with us as individuals, we should work on ourselves and try to influence others positively. It is easier to say than do. Does this mean turning the other cheek? Loving while being despised, even when face-to-face with those who would kill or harm us. Don't be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul, fear God who can kill both the soul and body. (Matt 10:28) Many Christians fear for their own lives, especially it seems Western Christians. I admire very much those Christians severely persecuted in the Eastern war-torn states, Syrian Christians, Iraqi Christians, who have been killed for the faith and remain loyal (the Church of Smyrna as I see them in Rev 2:8-11). Some Christians in your own country even, in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, are no doubt part of this church -- having died in bombings and what-not. I only pray I'd be so strong as some of these when/if face-to-face with such evil.

No society is perfect, and often, cultural and social norms and values can get in the way of positive progression. These might extend out of religious beliefs, maybe patriotic values, or even idealogical whether Marxist or the like. To uproot certain US cultural aspects to do with guns seems anti-patriotic, but Christians can look to something more foundational than country namely Christ and God as such. Atheists even can look to a greater natural law within them, which every human recognises, an accepted fact of reality the US Supreme court used to prosecute Nazi war criminals. I'm sure those who see semi-auto guns/even full autos as an American right, truly do not see the main issue being such guns themselves. They're working through thick American cultural values, which you, myself and others external to such see many absurdities they do not. I'd point out in relation to any "right for revolution" argument though, that unlike rifles of 200 or so years ago, governments today has access to choppers, tanks, missles and an array of modern weapons. This makes the "right for revolution" likely impossible to carry out today should any US government become tyrannical. So, then, it seems to me that the 2nd Amendment of the US Constitution is already undercut and obsolete.

On tyrannical governments, even in the Middle East where the US/West points out this dictator and that, there is social order that is being kept. When Saddam was toppled, Gaddafi and the like, everything goes to a complete and utter mess, and then groups like ISIS form. While those at the top (even in "democratic" countries) are able to harness much power and wealth, can and often do much evil, nonetheless even dictators create social order. Leaders will always be imperfect with man at the helm, desiring wealth and power, and so I look forward to the day when all is said and done and we're in the immediate presence of God and the Kingdom. Until then, we really only have power over ourselves and trying positively influence others where we can with truth and love as Christ taught.

So, then, I don't know where that places things in response to your questions. It was more running off my thoughts.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

___________________

Image

Blessed
Established Member
Posts: 121
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:01 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Los Angeles, Florida, Las Vegas
Contact:

Re: Vegas shooting...?

Postby Blessed » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:14 pm

Hi Edwardmurphy,

I am in Las Vegas. I experienced the shootings. It made me realize allot of things. I've told allot of people I was there. The general response: Nobody asks any questions. Nobody except my family gives a damn. Nobody cares.

"Well I'm happy you made it out" or "yea, yea, I heard about that on the news" or "Thats awful, glad your ok" or a pause of silence then nothing and onto other important things... like thier kitty's favorite food, or whats on Netflix this month.

Thank you for posting this thread.

User avatar
edwardmurphy
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1476
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:45 am
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation

Re: Vegas shooting...?

Postby edwardmurphy » Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:56 pm

Experienced as a member of the community, or as an attendee of the concert or a passer-by or something?

Either way, that must have been terrifying and heart breaking. I know it sounds trite, but that's awful and I'm glad you're okay. And in the defense of everyone you've previously spoken to, that's a damned hard conversation.

Has the experience changed your opinions about anything? Is there more you'd like to share?
If you're accustomed to privilege equality may feel like oppression.

Something for us all to consider. (Thanks, Paul)

Individual, silent, personal prayer never has and never could be outlawed in public schools. - FFRF

Blessed
Established Member
Posts: 121
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:01 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Los Angeles, Florida, Las Vegas
Contact:

Re: Vegas shooting...?

Postby Blessed » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:35 pm

edwardmurphy wrote:Experienced as a member of the community, or as an attendee of the concert or a passer-by or something?

Either way, that must have been terrifying and heart breaking. I know it sounds trite, but that's awful and I'm glad you're okay. And in the defense of everyone you've previously spoken to, that's a damned hard conversation.

Has the experience changed your opinions about anything? Is there more you'd like to share?


I was not at the concert. That would have put me in the kill zone. I was just outside it on the street near Mandalay Bay and Luxor running during the end of the attack. Hopefully the casinos will release more video that shows me and the others running away. At first I thought it was a gang battle or police shootout or terrorist attack. There is allot more I'd like to share but I'm waiting on the casinos to release thier CC eye in the sky videos. This should rule out the multiple shooters.

There are too many details to share. But basically I ran like a coward to the sounds of "rat tat tat tat tat tat tat tat tat tat tat tat tat" on foot to the Excaliber where it was supposidly safe. Nobody knew where the shooters were. I say shooters because sounded like multiple shooters. Like an organized terrorist attack. On the ground level. It did not sound like it was coming from up high. Thats why you see everyone ducking in the concert videos then running like hell when they relize it's from a perch.

In retrospect I think there was some kind of aucustic sound phenom going on. I hope myth busters or some other group can prove this by firing blanks someday from the same location. So anyways I fled on foot to the Excaliber. I know this sounds tasteless but I started playing roulette trying to distract myself. Suddenly waves of people started coming over from Mandalay Bay and Luxor into Excaliber through the tunnel. Now I'm thinking what are these people running from. OMG someone is chasing them over here. I went up the ecalator to the "Octane Bar". Figured maybe I was over reacting. I was talking with a guy who was there. A cowboy from Scotland. Dude looked like a male stripper. I didn't even think they had cowboys in Scotland but anways he was sweating buckets and his eyes were as big as saucers telling me about someone who got hit instead of him thereby blocking the rounds with chest and dying. People thought it was an attack from "Antfi" or "Nazis". Tons of speculations. Everyone inc me complaining why the none of the casino guards were not armed and why nobody had a gun. It was a state of confusion.How can you be a 2nd ammendment supporting country music fan and not have a gun. Some blonde lady freaked out on me big time in the lobby screaming at me like I was one of the shooters just for me asking her what the shooter looked like. Screaming at me like a psycho women. I just wanted to know if the shooters were middle easterners brown.not-white.

So I was at the Octane Bar and suddenly everyone heard 2 or 3 shots fired, It was 2 for sure but might have been three. it sounded like it was coming from directly behind the Octane bar but I went back and found it must have come from the casino or in the escaltors. If anyone is in Las Vegas I and interested I can show you exaclty were I'm talking about. The sound was LOUD as hell man. LOUD. BANG ! BANG ! and (I think another) BANG ! Then people started to split running like hell. I've never seen a fat women run so fast in my life. Once I realized what was happening (there is an active shooter in the buildling) I ran into the buffet area. Again this is what I thought was going on. I did not want to follow the crowd running so I broke off through the buffet area ran through the kitchen area and like you see on that movie "21" when those card counters are running from security. They have all that stuff back there. Somehow made my way up to some kind of roof area. A housekeeper was there and the closet was open. Thank God. I told her I was going in the closet because it locked from the outside. She was from Africa and had a hard time understanding me but finally she got there was a possible killer on the loose downstairs and she ran like hell.

Spent 5+ hours in that closet on my cell reading the talking to my parents, texting, reading the bible, and the twitter reports saying there were active shooters in all the hotels. I called the police 3 times and they refused to come up saying the Excaliber was not safe or "cleared" yet but the police had the casino "secrured". Mom and brother also called the Police asking them to help me and they refused. Police refused to provide more information, I kept asking if there was an active shooter and she said just stay hiding there are people hiding all over the hotels. Do not come out until an officer comes to get you.,



Even though factually as it turns out - I was in zero danger . Yet I believed I was just waiting to be killed. And it was only a matter of time. Sitting waiting like a fish for some Middle Eastern guy in fatuiges to kick in the door. It felt awful.

The thing is, and this is why I feel I need a Christian counselor in my personal life, I was thinking, these guys were doing me a favor somehow, maybe that I deserved to die, because God gave me many chances in life .. and blessed me and I'm not doing whatever it was I was put here to do .. so maybe God has already decided my fate. I've living selfish, smoking tobacco, drinking, gambling, doing whippets (nitrus oxide) going to sporting events, wasting my life on this stuff.. instead of doing whatever it is I'm "supposed to do" because I'm bored. . . At the same time I was really upset at myself because I did not have a gun on me.I wanted to at least go out in style.

Now I feel a little different. Like my life is vaulable. I need to do something. I've been sinning and taking my life for granted. Viewing life a as a chore. Under my "layers" (as BW Melvin eplains in his book Hells Dominion and on here) I've been taking this arrogant high handed attitude thinking I deserve to go to heaven just for the "indignity" of having to go through life on this Godforsaken planet. When God/Jesus suffered the ultimate unimaginable indignity on this earth and I have it better than 99% of the worlds population. I think like this and complain inside myself like this. Quarelling and blaming the Lord for everything that doesn't go my way. This a big time sin. I watch porno then accuse God of making me do it because he refuses to send me a wife. But that is my fault because I am a selfish arrogant person. It has nothing to do with God. I know this. Yet I still persist. I was thinking about this and trying to ask for forgiveness in the closet because I am not a bad person compared to most people. I keep this stuff inside so It's not external sins just internal. So I'm asking God to forgive me and felt forgiven and ok if I should die. Biut at the same time something inside saying "You loser" "you deserve to die" "God isn't going to forgive you" "it's too late for you" "God doesn't want you" "that's why your here" "you blew it". I was trying to shake it off. God blessed my life with perfect parents, upper middle class, perfect Christain upbring, Strong father figure, surfing , now I have a good career making good money. I had it better than most people yet all I can do is b-itch and complain to God and my parents (who are holy people) about how it's all not good enough. I demand God "delete me" or blast me off into non-exsistance after I die. I demand God not re-incarnate me. I say things inside my head like "if this is the best you can do I don't want to come back here". Crazy insanity.

I've have been making tiny little slivers of progress since the shooting. But I'm concerned about going to hell. Watching all these NDE flicks I get the impression that most people are going to hell. If thats true maybe I'm going too. For being a "minimum wage Christian".

This was a wake up call. I left the Palms Casino at 10:00pm. I'd only been there 30 minutes or so and I was already gambling. Yet I felt this strong urge to go gamble at Mandaly Bay and Luxor. Like Uber over there now in order to win some cash. Your gonna get lucky. Hurry up go, was the feeling. So I was meant to be there.


The bottom line is I need to do something with my life to help people in some way. I need to earn my way into heaven. Faith matching deeds like James says. I just honestly don't know what I'm supposed to do. God put us all here for a reason but I don't know what my reason is for being here other than getting through life... trying to be a good person... polite to people, and working being responsible.

I live a selfish life and this has got to stop. I need to find out whatever it was I was meant to do. I hope God heals all the victims familes. They had it 10000000000000000X worse that me and I'm running on at the mouth here.

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 7989
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Vegas shooting...?

Postby PaulSacramento » Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:27 am

As the bullet passes structures, like buildings, the sound waves ricochet and it may seem like the bullets are coming from somewhere else, like ground level.

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 7989
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Vegas shooting...?

Postby PaulSacramento » Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:35 am

I need to earn my way into heaven.


No one EARNS their way to heaven.
The simple fact that your motive to be saved is why you are doing "good things" to "earn" salvation has already tainted your acts.

User avatar
edwardmurphy
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1476
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:45 am
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation

Re: Vegas shooting...?

Postby edwardmurphy » Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:39 am

I'm not a Christian, and I see now reason that one cannot simultaneously smoke, gamble, and be a good person and a productive member of society. That said, if you don't like the life you're living then yeah, you obviously need to make some changes.

As far as you being a coward, I think you need to lighten up on yourself. When the shooting starts you're supposed to run.

Maybe its different if you're a trained combat medic or an off-duty cop or EMT, but unless you have some skill that would be useful in the situation what you need to do is get the hell away from the shooter and out of the way of the first responders. Staying in the area will just get you shot and increase the burden on the people whose job it is to deal with the situation.

I get that you're not feeling heroic, but you did the right thing by running away.
If you're accustomed to privilege equality may feel like oppression.

Something for us all to consider. (Thanks, Paul)

Individual, silent, personal prayer never has and never could be outlawed in public schools. - FFRF


Return to “Politics and World Events”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest