Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

Post by DBowling »

PaulSacramento wrote:
DBowling wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
The word of God does not provide this instruction to angels.
Does not God instruct His Angels ??
The "this instruction" I was referring to above was the following from Psalm 82.
"Vindicate the weak and fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and destitute.
4 Rescue the weak and needy;
Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked."

Do you agree with me that Scripture (the word of God) never gives this specific instruction to angels?
Do you agree with me that Scripture (the word of God) does give this specific instruction to human rulers?
Is not Christ God ??
Jesus Christ is most definitely God
IF the nations were given over to the sons of God and these were divine beings, would Jesus not have given them these orders?
Deut 32:8 NASB says
He set the boundaries of the peoples
According to the number of the sons of Israel.

As I noted earlier in this thread
I don't believe that Deut 32 claims that the nations were given over to the sons of Israel... or sons of God for that matter.

I think the text is telling us that the number of the nations in Gen 10-11 corresponds to the number of the "sons of Israel" in Exodus 1:5.
There was no Israel at the time of the division, there were no sons of Israel.
Correct, but at the time of Moses, the events of Genesis 10-11 and Exodus 1:5 were both in the past. So it is perfectly legitimate for Moses, to note that the number of the nations in Gen 10-11 corresponds to the number of the "sons of Israel" in Exodus 1:5.
Where in the OT is it stated that Israelis will rule other nations?
Nowhere that I can think of.
As I noted above...
I don't believe that Deut 32 claims that the nations were given over to the sons of Israel... or sons of God for that matter.
How do we address the passages about Israel worshiping Gods NOT alloted to them ?
Deuteronomy 4:19
Deuteronomy 29:26
God in multiple places commands his people to only worship the one true God.

It is important to note that Scripture teaches that anyone from any nation who worships other "gods" is worshiping a false god.
There is one and only one God who is to be worshiped by men.
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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

Post by PaulSacramento »

I agree DB, but false god doesn't mean "gods that don't exist".
Most of the prohibitions make no sense of these other entities didn't exist or never existed.
I see your points and agree they have merit, as I mentioned before I like your view on sons of god being the decedents of Adam's lineage as opposed to the "rest of the world".
That said, I still see far too many unanswered issues with sons of god NOT being divine beings when it comes to the passages I quoted.

Still, I have to say, I loved this discussion with you ( much like the one about the authorship of the GOJ we had) and you have given me some food for thought my bother.
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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

Post by RickD »

PaulSacramento wrote:Yes, I would agree with that.
I would agree that the divine beings /angels that sinned and were imprisoned ( Jude and Peter) would be considered "fallen".
That the divine beings to be judged for their "maladministration" of the nations, would be "fallen".
That The Devil would be a "fallen" angel.
None of that means that the term sons of god means "fallen angels", no more than morningstar refers solely to Satan ( since Christ is called morningstar, since other divine beings are called morningstars).

We seem to be talking about two different things here.
I see sons of God as divine beings ( under the right context), regardless of their state ( fallen or not).
Good. I think we're talking about the same thing. We just disagree about "sons of God" when it pertains to angels/divine beings. You say "sons of God" can refer to angels/ divine beings, REGARDLESS OF THEIR STATE. I say, that scripture, when referring to "sons of God" as angels/ divine beings, NEVER refers to the ones who have fallen. And I have yet to see anyone show me otherwise, from scripture.
John 5:24
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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

Post by PaulSacramento »

I say, that scripture, when referring to "sons of God" as angels/ divine beings, NEVER refers to the ones who have fallen. And I have yet to see anyone show me otherwise, from scripture.
Fair enough.
Not sure why it would matter, I mean, there is no explicit mention of fallen angels anywhere in the bible.
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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

Post by RickD »

PaulSacramento wrote:
I say, that scripture, when referring to "sons of God" as angels/ divine beings, NEVER refers to the ones who have fallen. And I have yet to see anyone show me otherwise, from scripture.
Fair enough.
Not sure why it would matter, I mean, there is no explicit mention of fallen angels anywhere in the bible.
Dude,

Jude 1:6


Paul,

I'm supposed to be the one here that people don't take seriously. :fryingpan:
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

Post by PaulSacramento »

RickD wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
I say, that scripture, when referring to "sons of God" as angels/ divine beings, NEVER refers to the ones who have fallen. And I have yet to see anyone show me otherwise, from scripture.
Fair enough.
Not sure why it would matter, I mean, there is no explicit mention of fallen angels anywhere in the bible.
Dude,

Jude 1:6


Paul,

I'm supposed to be the one here that people don't take seriously. :fryingpan:
Where does Jude call them "fallen angels"?

Of course he implies they are and the context makes it obvious that he is speaking of what we call "fallen angels",but he doesn't use those words and that is my point.

Fallen angels are implied in various verses through out the OT and NT BUT there is no explicit term used for them.

On a side note: I wonder who these angels were and what did they do.... :mrgreen:
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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

Post by RickD »

PaulSacramento wrote:
RickD wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
I say, that scripture, when referring to "sons of God" as angels/ divine beings, NEVER refers to the ones who have fallen. And I have yet to see anyone show me otherwise, from scripture.
Fair enough.
Not sure why it would matter, I mean, there is no explicit mention of fallen angels anywhere in the bible.
Dude,

Jude 1:6


Paul,

I'm supposed to be the one here that people don't take seriously. :fryingpan:
Where does Jude call them "fallen angels"?

Of course he implies they are and the context makes it obvious that he is speaking of what we call "fallen angels",but he doesn't use those words and that is my point.

Fallen angels are implied in various verses through out the OT and NT BUT there is no explicit term used for them.

On a side note: I wonder who these angels were and what did they do.... :mrgreen:
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John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

Post by DBowling »

PaulSacramento wrote: Still, I have to say, I loved this discussion with you ( much like the one about the authorship of the GOJ we had) and you have given me some food for thought my bother.
Prov 27:17 :D
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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

Post by SoCalExile »

B. W. wrote: Neither does the Sethite view prove that the Nephilim were humans mixing with another race of human beings who bore the mark of Cain which makes Cain's line technically another race that God caused.

Yes, God caused the Mark of Cain and for the later derived 3rd century AD Sethite view to be true then God caused problem. Ponder that...

Angelic view is that Fallen angels, watchers, somehow messed with Human, Plant, and Animal DNA and corrupted the entire earth due to Genetic Modification just as evidence points out in the Books of Jasher, Enoch, Philo's History, and Josephus, etc all mention as well as the traditional view held way before the 3rd Century AD.

Suggest people kindly get off the must-have-sexual-intercourse to make a race of supermen from a corrupted line of humans who bore the mark of Cain Gen 4:15 (which makes God clearly guilty and responsible for making the race of Nephilim). Try thinking for a change and try thinking outside the box for a change. Folks need to get over the human obsession with sex as the only way to make females pregnant. Our own human science has disproven that idea.

What of the science of the fallen angels - should not that be factor in?

Is Satan more or less cunning/intelligent than Human beings - what does the bible say about that?
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B.W., you are committing so many logical and hermeneutical fallacies here. First, I have stated that it wasn't about the Sethite and Cainanite bloodlines as much as a mixing of the people (Sons) of God by faith and the daughters of Men by the flesh - this is known as the "Fallen Man" view of Genesis 6. It's a matter of the holy being mixed with the profane, not of DNA. You are attacking a straw man right off the bat.

Second, You are interpreting the bible with non-biblical sources. Jasher is a 18th century fake. Enoch isn't scripture (as stated by Josephus), Philo was a philosopher, Josephus rejected Christ as the Messiah (why don't you follow THAT as scripture)? In fact, if you want to cite Philo and Josephus as doctrinal sources (and not just historical sources), then you must reject Christ.

Third, The Mark of Cain was for Cain. It doesn't say his offspring had it. Then you go on to make an argument of silence based on your own presuppositions. Nephilim means "fallen ones", i.e, " i.e. a bully or tyrant" , it doesn't refer to physical stature, and again, there is no word here indicating that DNA or physical seed ("zera") was the issue.
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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

Post by PaulSacramento »

RickD wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
RickD wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
I say, that scripture, when referring to "sons of God" as angels/ divine beings, NEVER refers to the ones who have fallen. And I have yet to see anyone show me otherwise, from scripture.
Fair enough.
Not sure why it would matter, I mean, there is no explicit mention of fallen angels anywhere in the bible.
Dude,

Jude 1:6


Paul,

I'm supposed to be the one here that people don't take seriously. :fryingpan:
Where does Jude call them "fallen angels"?

Of course he implies they are and the context makes it obvious that he is speaking of what we call "fallen angels",but he doesn't use those words and that is my point.

Fallen angels are implied in various verses through out the OT and NT BUT there is no explicit term used for them.

On a side note: I wonder who these angels were and what did they do.... :mrgreen:
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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

Post by B. W. »

+
First Human Embryos Edited in U.S.

Oh yes, angelic beings are simply too stupid to do this or inspire human beings to this either...

As the headline of the quoted article reads: Researchers have demonstrated they can efficiently improve the DNA of human embryos....

The main fallen angelic leaders are mentioned in Enoch as teaching the "Cutting of Roots" to human beings. While this involves the grafting of roots together to make a new type of fruit tree, or flower, it also an imply something else. In the bible, the root is a symbol denoting a family linage, such as the Messiah coming from the root of Jesse...

There are things that just make you say hmmm...

Mat 24:37-42 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. NKJV
Luke 17:26-36 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man..NKJV

Note:1 Pe 3:19. 20

Next on the Sons of God...
Pulpit Commentary

Job 38:7

When the morning stars sang together. The stars generally, or the actual stars visible on the morn of creation, are probably meant. They, as it were, sang a song of loud acclaim on witnessing the new marvel. Their priority to the earth is implied, since they witness its birth. Their song is, of course, that silent song of sympathy, whereof Shakespeare speaks when he says, "Each in its motion like an angel sings" (’Merchant of Venice,’ act 5. sc. 1). And all the sons of God shouted for joy. "The sons of God" here must necessarily be the angels (see Job 1:6; Job 2:1), since there were no men as yet in existence. They too joined in the chorus of sympathy and admiration, perhaps lifting up their voices (Rev 5:11, Rev 5:12), perhaps their hearts only, praising the Creator, who had done such marvellous things.

Next on Jude 1:6...
Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges - Commentary

Jude 1:6

And the angels which kept not their first estate] The two last words answer to a Greek term which may either mean “beginning,” i.e. their original constitution, the meaning adopted in the English version, or “sovereignty.” The latter sense may mean either that they rejected the sovereignty of God, or that they abandoned the position of power and dignity which He had assigned them. Looking to the fact that the term is used in the New Testament, as by Jewish writers, as describing a class of angels (the “principalities” of Eph 1:21; Eph 3:10; Eph 6:12; Col 1:16; Col 2:15), the latter explanation is probably the true one. On the nature of the sin referred to, see notes on 2Pe 2:4.

but left their own habitation] As this is named as the sin, not as the punishment, it seems to imply a descent from the region of heaven to that of earth, like that implied in the language of Gen 6:2.

he hath reserved in everlasting chains …] The words, like those of 2Pe 2:4, seem to indicate a distinction between the angels who were thus punished, and the “demons” or “unclean spirits” with Satan at their head, who exercise a permitted power as the tempters, accusers, and destroyers of mankind, the “world-rulers of this darkness” of Eph 6:12, who even “in heavenly places” carry on their warfare against the souls of men. It is possible that St Jude recognised such a distinction.

His language, like that of St Peter, follows the traditions of the Book of Enoch, which speaks of fallen angels as kept in their prison-house till the day of judgment (xxii. 4), and those which are represented by the Midrasch Ruth in the Book of Zohar, “After that the sons of God had begotten sons, God took them and brought them to the mount of darkness and bound them in chains of darkness which reach to the middle of the great abyss.”

A fuller form of the Rabbinic legend relates that the angels Asa and Asael charged God with folly in having created man who so soon provoked Him, and that He answered that if they had been on earth they would have sinned as man had done. “And thereupon He allowed them to descend to earth, and they sinned with the daughters of men. And when they would have returned to Heaven they could not, for they were banished from their former habitation and brought into the dark mountains of the earth” (Nischmath Chaim in Nork’s Rabbinische Quellen und Parallelen).

The resemblance between this tradition and that of the Zoroastrian legend of the fall of Ahriman and his angels, and again of the punishment of the Titans by Zeus in the mythology of Hesiod (Theogon. 729), shews the wide-spread currency of the belief referred to. How far this allusive reference to a tradition which the writers accepted stamps it with a Divine authority as an article of faith is a question the answer to which depends on external considerations as to the nature of the inspiration by which the writers who so referred were guided. The office of the interpreter is limited to stating what, as far as can be gathered, was actually in the thoughts of the writer.
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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

Post by Philip »

Per angels changing DNA: Just because they might have the ability, doesn't mean they DID! I've yet to see anyone explain why an issue of such uncertainty is terribly important - NOW. What I've mostly seen is references to what Scripture MIGHT be speaking of, but mostly I've just seen speculations over possibilities. If it is important that we KNOW the answers to this, a time will come when it will be far clearer. Until then, it's like a civil war battle where everyone is out of bullets and their rushing each other with bayonets. Another G&S stalemate of epic proportions!
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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

Post by RickD »

B. W.,

I'm trying to find the book of Enoch in my bible, and I can't seem to find it. Could you tell me where it is?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

Post by RickD »

The Book of Mormon has no mention of giants nor nephilim. I rest my case.
http://www.andywhiteanthropology.com/bl ... -of-mormon
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

Post by PaulSacramento »

RickD wrote:B. W.,

I'm trying to find the book of Enoch in my bible, and I can't seem to find it. Could you tell me where it is?
You really wanna open up THAT can of worms?
How many books in YOUR bible Rick?
What bible did Jesus and His apostles read? all 1st century Jews read?
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