Christian conflict with native groups

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thatkidakayoungguy
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Christian conflict with native groups

Postby thatkidakayoungguy » Mon May 29, 2017 7:35 pm

It's easy to look through history and see how Christians have acted badly to surrounding peoples. Sure no one's perfect but it makes people question Christians' claims.
For instance, http://www.nchistoricsites.org/bath/tuscarora.htm
How in the world are such people going to give account? Were their standards of self so low so that they wouldn't be breaking the Golden Rule? "Do unto others as you would have done unto you" how would this apply to colonizers who decimated entire people groups? Sure not all were bad.

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Re: Christian conflict with native groups

Postby PaulSacramento » Tue May 30, 2017 4:50 am

Ok, as some one that grew up and learnt history IN PORTUGAL before revisionist history tried to be taught, allow me to help you understand, at least from the Portuguese colonist perspective, what was going on:
The main motivations for the expansion and colonization periods were :
Scientific curiosity
Economic gains
The rivalry with Spain
and to spread Christianity.

Now, hows was Christianity spread?
Missionaries, juts like now.

How much of a factor was it?
Only to the extend that it helped fund part of the expeditions.

The Portuguese and Spanish were not the same, the Portuguese wanted trade and commerce while the Spanish wanted conquest. Note that none of these were religious motivations.
The church help fund the expeditions to priests were allowed to come and set up missions and churches to save the souls of the poor pagans.

The colonizing was done by Christians, yes, BUT their motivation ( other than the priests) were NOT Christian high morals or anything like that, it was either conquest and exploitation or trade and commerce.

Did they do lots of crap?
Of course they did, they had selfish goals that did not have the indigenous peoples best interest at heart.

Were they motivated by Christianity to colonize?
NO.

In short, blaming Christianity for the colonization periods of western civilization is a valid point ONLY TO THE DEGREE that it was a PART of it BUT not the MAIN motivation.

One thing that we also tend to forget is that NOWHERE in the gospel doe sit say that Christians are or will be better than the rest of the people, only that they MUST try to be better and WHY they must try to be better.
It doesn't promise that they WILL be and, actually, warns against many of the things we have seen:
Arrogance and the ends justifies the means mentality.

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Re: Christian conflict with native groups

Postby B. W. » Tue May 30, 2017 8:21 am

Political interests seek to use whatever the dominate religion is to spread its political interests. That is the nature of the political game. The exception is Islam which by definition is a religion of submission that is a geo-political-religious movement seeking literal world domination.

Also, the lets not play into the victim game by claiming other cultures were pure as the driven snow at one with nature and living in blissful harmony. South and Central American tribes and nations were brutal to each other, enslaving each other, and open human sacrifice. Same within North American tribes and nations as they fought each other and killed off entire tribes - men, women, and children.

For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_Canyon

There was constant war amongst the eastern tribes as well too way before any colonist showed up. Brutality was common midst European as it was for the the tribal peoples during that era in history. All are guilty, none righteous, no not one... let's not forget that.

However, in due time, where the gospel took root, these atrocities ceased and evil was held in check.. Let's not forget that either...

Forgiveness is the key...
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
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Re: Christian conflict with native groups

Postby yorican67 » Tue May 30, 2017 4:35 pm

thatkidakayoungguy wrote:It's easy to look through history and see how Christians have acted badly to surrounding peoples. Sure no one's perfect but it makes people question Christians' claims.
For instance, http://www.nchistoricsites.org/bath/tuscarora.htm
How in the world are such people going to give account? Were their standards of self so low so that they wouldn't be breaking the Golden Rule? "Do unto others as you would have done unto you" how would this apply to colonizers who decimated entire people groups? Sure not all were bad.

Hi Kid - This post made me think of how the Hebrews were commissioned by the Lord to take the promised land. I know the context is different, yet this mandate has continued to this day. There's a continual battle for Israel, Jerusalem, the West Bank, the Golan Heights, the Gaza strip... Atheist love to over emphasize the Jews lack of rights to the land. Not even sure what I'm trying to say here, your post was just thought provoking...

I believe the Jews of the day have a right to reclaim/protect their land, yet the Christians of the day are not in their right to pursue the conquest of lands (Calvinist in particular). This is a weird parallel since I think it would have been the exact opposite.

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Re: Christian conflict with native groups

Postby thatkidakayoungguy » Tue May 30, 2017 5:32 pm

yorican67 wrote:Hi Kid - This post made me think of how the Hebrews were commissioned by the Lord to take the promised land. I know the context is different, yet this mandate has continued to this day. There's a continual battle for Israel, Jerusalem, the West Bank, the Golan Heights, the Gaza strip... Atheist love to over emphasize the Jews lack of rights to the land. Not even sure what I'm trying to say here, your post was just thought provoking...

I believe the Jews of the day have a right to reclaim/protect their land, yet the Christians of the day are not in their right to pursue the conquest of lands (Calvinist in particular). This is a weird parallel since I think it would have been the exact opposite.

Somewhere there's a prophecy that in the latter times Israel would be a stumbling block and any nation that attacks will be harmed. I think this has come true.
I read a historical fiction book called the Alexandria something (no really I can't recall the latter part) that mentions much conflict has been caused by the promise God gave to Abraham.

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Re: Christian conflict with native groups

Postby thatkidakayoungguy » Tue May 30, 2017 5:37 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:Ok, as some one that grew up and learnt history IN PORTUGAL before revisionist history tried to be taught, allow me to help you understand, at least from the Portuguese colonist perspective, what was going on:
The main motivations for the expansion and colonization periods were :
Scientific curiosity
Economic gains
The rivalry with Spain
and to spread Christianity.

Now, hows was Christianity spread?
Missionaries, juts like now.

How much of a factor was it?
Only to the extend that it helped fund part of the expeditions.

The Portuguese and Spanish were not the same, the Portuguese wanted trade and commerce while the Spanish wanted conquest. Note that none of these were religious motivations.
The church help fund the expeditions to priests were allowed to come and set up missions and churches to save the souls of the poor pagans.

The colonizing was done by Christians, yes, BUT their motivation ( other than the priests) were NOT Christian high morals or anything like that, it was either conquest and exploitation or trade and commerce.

Did they do lots of crap?
Of course they did, they had selfish goals that did not have the indigenous peoples best interest at heart.

Were they motivated by Christianity to colonize?
NO.

In short, blaming Christianity for the colonization periods of western civilization is a valid point ONLY TO THE DEGREE that it was a PART of it BUT not the MAIN motivation.

One thing that we also tend to forget is that NOWHERE in the gospel doe sit say that Christians are or will be better than the rest of the people, only that they MUST try to be better and WHY they must try to be better.
It doesn't promise that they WILL be and, actually, warns against many of the things we have seen:
Arrogance and the ends justifies the means mentality.

Ik there were missionaries but going around and saying England or Portugal etc were Christian nations yet do the things they did seems wrong.
Makes me think about why Jimmy Carter acted the way he did.
Of course, it should be apparent even to skeptics that the bible says no one is perfect yet we should at least try to be.

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Re: Christian conflict with native groups

Postby thatkidakayoungguy » Tue May 30, 2017 5:40 pm

B. W. wrote:

Also, the lets not play into the victim game by claiming other cultures were pure as the driven snow at one with nature and living in blissful harmony. South and Central American tribes and nations were brutal to each other, enslaving each other, and open human sacrifice. Same within North American tribes and nations as they fought each other and killed off entire tribes - men, women, and children.

For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_Canyon

There was constant war amongst the eastern tribes as well too way before any colonist showed up. Brutality was common midst European as it was for the the tribal peoples during that era in history. All are guilty, none righteous, no not one... let's not forget that.

However, in due time, where the gospel took root, these atrocities ceased and evil was held in check.. Let's not forget that either...

Forgiveness is the key...
-
-
-

Oh I'm full aware other cultures were as bad if not worse than Europeans. Sometimes the media/educational system is biased and tries to make Christianity look bad while giving others more or less a pass.

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Re: Christian conflict with native groups

Postby Philip » Tue May 30, 2017 6:05 pm

B.W.: lets not play into the victim game by claiming other cultures were pure as the driven snow at one with nature and living in blissful harmony. South and Central American tribes and nations were brutal to each other, enslaving each other, and open human sacrifice. Same within North American tribes and nations as they fought each other and killed off entire tribes - men, women, and children.


AMEN! For Native Americans, warfare was sport. Yes, there were more peaceful tribes, but for most, their was a significant to extremely high level of aggression toward other tribes. Killing, torture, kidnapping, slavery - you name it, they practiced it. Go down into South America, Mexico, there was human sacrifice practiced on a wide scale. Human life was less than cheap. Yet, speaking of revisionist PC crapola - I visited the American Indian Museum in Washington, maybe 10 years back - scarcely any mention of infra-tribal warfare or atrocities against other tribes and whites. Those who play the PC narrative that only accuses the evil white aggressors who destroyed the tribes - that's a narrative whitewashed of much blood-soaked native American history - long practiced before the white man, and much practiced against him. And none of that is to deny the terrible sins of whites against the native nations, but just to say no nation of the Americas is without it's great sins and bloodied hands. Of course, much of the natives' horrific actions were used as a blanket excuse to reciprocate with terrible violence against the tribes. There are always demons on all sides, intent upon stirring up hatred and mayhem - in fact, Satan counts on it!

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Re: Christian conflict with native groups

Postby B. W. » Tue May 30, 2017 6:10 pm

Philip wrote:B.W.: lets not play into the victim game by claiming other cultures were pure as the driven snow at one with nature and living in blissful harmony. South and Central American tribes and nations were brutal to each other, enslaving each other, and open human sacrifice. Same within North American tribes and nations as they fought each other and killed off entire tribes - men, women, and children.

AMEN! For Native Americans, warfare was sport. Yes, there were more peaceful tribes, but for most, their was a significant to extremely high level of aggression toward other tribes. Killing, torture, kidnapping, slavery - you name it, they practiced it. Go down into South America, Mexico, there was human sacrifice practiced on a wide scale. Human life was less than cheap. Yet, speaking of revisionist PC crapola - I visited the American Indian Museum in Washington, maybe 10 years back - scarcely any mention of intra-tribal warfare or atrocities against other tribes and whites. Those who play the PC narrative that only accuses the evil white aggressors who destroyed the tribes - that's a narrative whitewashed of much blood-soaked native American history - long practiced before the white man, and much practiced against him. And none of that is to deny the terrible sins of whites against the native nations, but just to say no nation of the Americas is without it's great sins and bloodied hands. Of course, much of the natives' horrific actions were used as a blanket excuse to reciprocate with terrible violence against the tribes. There are always demons on all sides, intent upon stirring up hatred and mayhem - in fact, Satan counts on it!


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Re: Christian conflict with native groups

Postby abelcainsbrother » Tue May 30, 2017 6:20 pm

I would also like to point out that all countries that exist conquered somebody else,killed the people,enslaved the people and took their land away from them.It is not exclusive to just America like the PC revisionists of history portray. The fact is, is history shows that unless you were strong you were conquered by somebody else stronger than you.If you were a weak society you were conquered and taken over by some people stronger than you.This is one reason why America must retain its superpower status,it must remain strong so that nobody will even think about conquering us,etc.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Christian conflict with native groups

Postby PaulSacramento » Wed May 31, 2017 9:38 am

People enslave people and have done through the ages.
Even now we have that and even in western civilization, it's just masquerading as something else.
The first to practice the "black slave trade" for example, were other blacks in Africa ( Tribal).
Look at the horrifics of the 20th century alone in places like China, USSR, Cambodia, etc, etc

The difference is that, with Christianity we know it is wrong and why it is wrong, even if we don't always have the courage and strength to fight it ( our weakness as humans).

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Re: Christian conflict with native groups

Postby thatkidakayoungguy » Wed May 31, 2017 10:34 am

PaulSacramento wrote:People enslave people and have done through the ages.
Even now we have that and even in western civilization, it's just masquerading as something else.
The first to practice the "black slave trade" for example, were other blacks in Africa ( Tribal).
Look at the horrifics of the 20th century alone in places like China, USSR, Cambodia, etc, etc

The difference is that, with Christianity we know it is wrong and why it is wrong, even if we don't always have the courage and strength to fight it ( our weakness as humans).

Yes I agree.
One of the main problems in western society that involves slavery is the sex trade. It even happens in my county which is almost in nowheresville.

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Re: Christian conflict with native groups

Postby PaulSacramento » Wed May 31, 2017 11:36 am

thatkidakayoungguy wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:People enslave people and have done through the ages.
Even now we have that and even in western civilization, it's just masquerading as something else.
The first to practice the "black slave trade" for example, were other blacks in Africa ( Tribal).
Look at the horrifics of the 20th century alone in places like China, USSR, Cambodia, etc, etc

The difference is that, with Christianity we know it is wrong and why it is wrong, even if we don't always have the courage and strength to fight it ( our weakness as humans).

Yes I agree.
One of the main problems in western society that involves slavery is the sex trade. It even happens in my county which is almost in nowheresville.


And Christianity addresses why it is wrong, even if misguided people that profess to be Christian partake in it.


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