Gluttony & envy

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IceMobster
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Gluttony & envy

Postby IceMobster » Mon Jan 30, 2017 6:05 am

Could somebody explain to me how does the sin of gluttony happen? My mind simply can not comprehend it. I eat up until you feel filled/reach satiety and that is it. So, I don't get it how does one achieve the sin of gluttony. Mind explaining?

Somewhat similarly, how is envy a sin? As long as you do not hurt the person having that something you want in order for you to get it, how is it a sin? I'll give an example. Say, Hungary has a wall (and soon USA, too :mrgreen: ). I envy them for having the wall since my country does not. How is that a sin? I do not want to steal their wall, I do not want to hurt them because they have it, I do not want to, in any way, negatively impact their life.
Or I envy a priest or some other intellectual that is very good at verbal argumentation and sentence forming. I don't see how that is a sin? There must be a difference between the examples I just provided and something like some kid seeing another one having a better mobile phone and therefore either stealing it, behaving rudely towards that kid or screaming at their parents to buy him the said device.
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Re: Gluttony & envy

Postby Nessa » Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:23 pm

You dont understand how people can over eat?

envy
ˈɛnvi/Submit
noun
1.
a feeling of discontented or resentful longing aroused by someone else's possessions, qualities, or luck.
"she felt a twinge of envy for the people on board"
synonyms: jealousy, enviousness, covetousness, desire; More
verb
1.
desire to have a quality, possession, or other desirable thing belonging to (someone else).
"he envied people who did not have to work at the weekends"
synonyms: be envious of, be jealous of;



Paul talks about being content with what we have. Its human nature to always want more and more stuff. And to see things others have and to be dissatisfied with what we have. Grass is usually not greener on the other side tho we often believe it is. Being content and thankful for what we do have causes us to be happy for others when they succeed. Not jealous cos they got the promotion and we didnt etc. That doesnt mean we cant aim higher but with the right attitude.

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Re: Gluttony & envy

Postby Philip » Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:35 pm

Paul talks about being content with what we have.


Clearly, Paul did not have a garage freezer stocked with his favorite brand and flavors of ice cream. Or a wife who makes REALLY good chocolate layer cake! y[-(

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Re: Gluttony & envy

Postby crochet1949 » Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:40 pm

People eat for different reasons. If we are hungry -- mad -- depressed -- bored -- emotional. If our eating is the only thing we feel we have control of. Instead of turning to drugs, alcohol -- they turn to food.

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Re: Gluttony & envy

Postby Jac3510 » Tue Jan 31, 2017 4:08 pm

The short answer to both is that both are contrary to reason. That is, both take something natural and good (desire for a specific good, namely, food; and a desire for general goods) and corrupt them so that the quest itself is contrary to our nature.

Here's the longer answer:

Food has a specific purpose. It fuels the body. It has plenty of other nice benefits as asides. It is often times rather pleasurable to eat. It promotes unity and fellowship with people. It can be aesthetically pleasing, and so on. But all of this, while true, is of secondary importance. The thing that makes something food is that it fuels the body. Consider, for example, if I set a substance in front of you that was absolutely delicious to eat, that smelled wonderful, that was pleasurable to look at, that you could eat with your friends and share in the pleasure. Now suppose that you all consume this substance together but that, upon doing so, you all became deathly ill. And suppose that wasn't an accident. Suppose that any time that someone consumed this substance they would become deathly ill, because that's just what it does to the body.

Now, does the fact that it looks and tastes and smells good mean that it's food? Of course not. It is, rather, poison. On the other hand, there is a lot of stuff out there that really is food that does not taste or smell or look good. But it is food nonetheless, because it fuels the body.

So, back to the point. Food fuels the body. Therefore, because we need that fuel to live, God gave us an appetite for food. When we need it, we experience this feeling in our body called hunger. When we don't need any more of it, we experience this feeling in our body called satisfaction or fullness. In fact, under normal circumstances, when you are full enough and when the taste centers of your brain have been sufficiently stimulated, the taste of the food is either no longer as pleasurable (so that you are not as inclined to eat any more) or else the taste literally becomes unpleasant. Again, that's God's way of telling us to stop eating.

And why? Because if you eat too much, you're going to harm your body.

So a rational person completely enjoys, indeed they savor, every bite of the meal. More, they savor the smell and look. They savor its preparation. They get all the pleasure they can out of it. But they subsume that pleasure to the proper purpose of the food, which is to fuel the body. And so when they enjoy their food, they do so in a proper manner. They do so at the right time and at the right quantities. They consume food and not poison. In other words, they let their rational minds both be informed by and ultimately guide their passions, their appetites. so that the pleasure of eating is good for them. It's good for them because that's part of their nature.

Gluttony, on the other hand, is the inordinate desire for food. It is when you desire it in such a way that the goodness of food serving as a fuel for the body is secondary at best. Perhaps it isn't even present at all. A glutton could rather easily eat his food and then, right before swallowing, spit it out, so that he would never get full and could enjoy the taste more. Or a glutton could eat until he is stuffed, to an unhealthy level, and then eat more. Or a glutton could eat and then vomit out what he ate so that he could enjoy more food. In all these types of cases, the sin comes because the act of consuming the food is now being done in a way that violates our nature, that violates reason. The glutton is being controlled by some baser instincts or even defects. He is not being fully human (for humans are properly understood to be rational animals). He is being less than human, less than what God intended him to be. He is thus sinning against his own nature, his own body, his own flesh.

To be clear, this isn't a sin because of the harmful effects. It is harmful because it's a sin. That is, it's harmful because it's contrary to our nature, and any time you use anything in a way that contradicts its nature you are likely to harm it. The sin lies in the fact that gluttony is a disordered desire.

I expect, then, if you use this as a model you can see how the same type of reasoning applies to the sin of envy.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue

And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Gluttony & envy

Postby IceMobster » Wed Feb 01, 2017 5:59 am

Nessa wrote:You dont understand how people can over eat?

Yes!

Nessa wrote:
envy
ˈɛnvi/Submit
noun
1.
a feeling of discontented or resentful longing aroused by someone else's possessions, qualities, or luck.
"she felt a twinge of envy for the people on board"
synonyms: jealousy, enviousness, covetousness, desire; More
verb
1.
desire to have a quality, possession, or other desirable thing belonging to (someone else).
"he envied people who did not have to work at the weekends"
synonyms: be envious of, be jealous of;

So, based on my examples that I gave, it is not envy that I feel? I do not resentfully long for it, I only long for it. I feel no ill towards said person.
Concerning the second definition: yes. How is that bad/sin?

Jac3510 wrote:In all these types of cases, the sin comes because the act of consuming the food is now being done in a way that violates our nature, that violates reason. The glutton is being controlled by some baser instincts or even defects. He is not being fully human (for humans are properly understood to be rational animals). He is being less than human, less than what God intended him to be. He is thus sinning against his own nature, his own body, his own flesh.

Indeed, your answer is wise. Well, I have never experienced (or, well, I don't think I have ever observed such a thing) it and therefore didn't connect the dots...

Jac3510 wrote:I expect, then, if you use this as a model you can see how the same type of reasoning applies to the sin of envy.

Nope. How does envy harm oneself? On the contrary, it pushes the person to pursue that certain desire (not necessarily in a bad way... Desire somewhat has a negative connotation).
Like, I wish I could explain theology and philosophy to my friends as well as you or my parish priest or C.S.Lewis or Thomas Aquinas or some other theologian can. Is that envy? I guess? How is it bad or a sin?
Envy does not degrade you below the rationale level. Jealousy does.
crochet1949 wrote:People eat for different reasons. If we are hungry -- mad -- depressed -- bored -- emotional. If our eating is the only thing we feel we have control of. Instead of turning to drugs, alcohol -- they turn to food.

I eat when I am hungry up until I feel satiety. Moods or emotions do not affect this. And if they to a small extent do, it certainly isn't to eat more but to eat less.
Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for You are with me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGOXMf6yDCU

Fecisti nos ad te, Domine, et inquietum est cor nostrum donec requiescat in te!

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Re: Gluttony & envy

Postby Jac3510 » Wed Feb 01, 2017 5:04 pm

IceMobster wrote:
Jac3510 wrote:I expect, then, if you use this as a model you can see how the same type of reasoning applies to the sin of envy.

Nope. How does envy harm oneself? On the contrary, it pushes the person to pursue that certain desire (not necessarily in a bad way... Desire somewhat has a negative connotation).
Like, I wish I could explain theology and philosophy to my friends as well as you or my parish priest or C.S.Lewis or Thomas Aquinas or some other theologian can. Is that envy? I guess? How is it bad or a sin?
Envy does not degrade you below the rationale level. Jealousy does.

I think you sort of answered your own question, or at least you see if even if you don't realize it. When we talk about envy being a sin, we aren't talking about simple desire for something. We're talking about the type of desire you're getting at with what you're calling jealousy. It's not envying Lewis to wish you could explain theology as well as him. It's seeing him as exemplifying some good and wanting that good. Wanting good is good. But when the desire for that good becomes inordinate, when it becomes all consuming, when it leads you to put the pursuit of that good over the good of others and in fact leads you to be willing to or to actually sacrifice the good of others, now the desire is disordered.

So, I, for one, wouldn't say that desire has a negative connotation -- it doesn't to my ear, anyway. Envy or jealousy does. So all envy is, is wanting what someone else has in a way or manner that is disordered, that is willing to sacrifice the good of the very person you are "admiring" to get that good if necessary. As such, it is irrational and thus, not surprisingly, harmful by nature.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue

And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Gluttony & envy

Postby Nicki » Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:04 am

IceMobster wrote:
crochet1949 wrote:People eat for different reasons. If we are hungry -- mad -- depressed -- bored -- emotional. If our eating is the only thing we feel we have control of. Instead of turning to drugs, alcohol -- they turn to food.

I eat when I am hungry up until I feel satiety. Moods or emotions do not affect this. And if they to a small extent do, it certainly isn't to eat more but to eat less.


That's a good way to be. I eat less (or at least feel like eating less) as well if I'm very upset or stressed, but on the other hand the good tastes of particular foods in combination with boredom or tiredness can lead me to eat even if I'm not hungry at all. There are many times when what I'm really lacking is sleep but I just feel like stuffing my face with chocolate! Fortunately I don't keep much chocolate around and also I don't want to share it with my kids so I can't eat it in front of them. Of course there are other nice snacks...

I can remember when I was a kid spending my pocket money on treats, it didn't seem right to me to eat lollies, i.e. candy, and chocolate if I was actually hungry; I'd eat something slightly more substantial first. Then I heard an overweight person on TV saying she overate because she was hungry all the time, and I was like 'Huh? Why do you have to be hungry?' I guess that's gluttony - eating for the sake of eating rather that hunger. I realise now that the hungrier you are, the better things taste.

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Re: Gluttony & envy

Postby Blessed » Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:27 pm

I've noticed allot of fat people eat, and eat, and eat, becuase they have nothing better to do. They live in a small town, or are lonely and have no activities to participate in. The drink is to participate in a sport or activity where you are having fun or putting your energy into something that does not feel like "work".

For me it was surfing. Since I've stopped surfing, I've gained weight, and turned to unhealhty habits.

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Re: Gluttony & envy

Postby Blessed » Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:35 pm

Jac3510 wrote:A glutton could rather easily eat his food and then, right before swallowing, spit it out, so that he would never get full and could enjoy the taste more..


Are you sure this is Gluttony? I do this all the time. Especially with Cheesecake.

I buy Chocolate cheesecakes, then spit them out.

I have not ever once considered this Gluttony though ...

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Re: Gluttony & envy

Postby Nessa » Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:42 pm

Blessed wrote:I've noticed allot of fat people eat, and eat, and eat, becuase they have nothing better to do. They live in a small town, or are lonely and have no activities to participate in. The drink is to participate in a sport or activity where you are having fun or putting your energy into something that does not feel like "work".

For me it was surfing. Since I've stopped surfing, I've gained weight, and turned to unhealhty habits.

Yeah, kinda like how skinny people get skinny who are so busy stereotyping and judging they forget to eat. Nothing better to do :wave:

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Re: Gluttony & envy

Postby Blessed » Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:31 am

I once heard communism described as "the politics of envy"


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