Questions Concerning Catholic Church Teachings

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Re: Questions Concerning Catholic Church Teachings

Post by PaulSacramento »

RickD wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Personally I think we need to focus on what we have in common and NOT the differences.
That said it is clear that certain doctrines will always be a "wall" between denominations.
That said, we need to remember the words of Our Lord:
He who is not against me, is for me.
As long as the Gospel of Our Lord is being preached, that is a good thing.
IMO, the minor details of doctrinal differences, while they may mean a lot to us, probably mean very little to God since HE KNOWS what is in OUR hearts and, more importantly, WHY they are in our hearts.
Paul, It is the false, unbiblical doctrine Itself that divides the Church. Bringing the false doctrine (in any denomination) to light doesn't divide. Paul, if you had a friend who was caught up in something you believed was harming him, would you not talk to him about it? Would you pretend the problem didn't exist?

Respectful communication about differences is rarely a bad thing.
I agree, of course.
I am not saying that we can reconcile these differences, history has taught us that is not the case.
Gonna be hard pressed to find agreement between Calvinists and Catholics on the issues that divide them.
My point is that we don't have to agree on ALL the doctrines, heck I know Catholics that don't agree with all the RCC doctrines.
The issue is that we tend to focus on what the differences are, instead of focusing on the similarities.
False ( and I don't like that term) doctrines are such because of differences in interpretation and those things are truly left up to God to decide who is right and who is wrong since, in all honesty, you can't convince someone that has made up their mind ( we all have personal experience of that).
Just the other day I was discussing with my JW family the issue of the "annointed" 144K that the JW's believe are the only ones that will be with Christ in Heaven ( all others will be on Earth in paradise).
They view the number as literal BUT do NOT view the description of them ( virgins, of the 12 tribes of Israel) as literal.
I view the number and description as symbolic ( typical of Jewish apocalyptic scripture) and I made my case based on how Revelation meshes with Jewish apocalyptic literature like Daniel and 1Enoch and they made their case base don the Watchtower "scholars" say, "we say so".
I know that I couldn't change their minds BUT in the discussion they understand that the difference in interpretation of THAT part is not as important as the AGREEMENT that there will be paradise on Earth and that we all will bask in the prescience of God and Christ ( though we did not agree on HOW that would be, LOL).
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Re: Questions Concerning Catholic Church Teachings

Post by RickD »

PaulS wrote:
I am not saying that we can reconcile these differences, history has taught us that is not the case.
Paul, I'm not saying we can or should reconcile differences that are crucial to Christianity. If I have a discussion with a Mormon, I'm certainly not going to try to reconcile Mormonism with scripture. Could you picture me telling a Mormon that as long as he believes in his christ, he'll be saved?

Mr. Smith:" I place my faith in Christ for salvation, so I will be saved".

Me: "oh sure. It doesn't matter that your christ is a false Christ. Just believe in whatever christ you want."
My point is that we don't have to agree on ALL the doctrines, heck I know Catholics that don't agree with all the RCC doctrines.
I agree. And you actually helped my argument about why we need to discuss this stuff, as uncomfortable a discussion it is. If a Roman Catholic doesn't agree with all RC doctrine, then that's a huge issue. RC teaches that ex cathedra teaching has to be agreed upon, because it's without error. If a Catholic can disagree with Catholic doctrine, he may be open to see other errors that the RCC teaches.
False ( and I don't like that term) doctrines are such because of differences in interpretation and those things are truly left up to God to decide who is right and who is wrong since, in all honesty, you can't convince someone that has made up their mind ( we all have personal experience of that).
Phooey! False doctrines are doctrines that when followed, will lead one away from the one true gospel of Jesus Christ.
And sometimes we can't convince somebody that they're wrong. But, sometimes we can. Everyday, people come out of false religions to a saving faith in Christ. Now, if a believer is holding to a false doctrine, it will affect his relationship with God, and others.
I know that I couldn't change their minds BUT in the discussion they understand that the difference in interpretation of THAT part is not as important as the AGREEMENT that there will be paradise on Earth and that we all will bask in the prescience of God and Christ ( though we did not agree on HOW that would be, LOL).
That's all rosey and everything, but what good is it if you agree with a JW about paradise, if their gospel is false, and you know they'll never see paradise by following their gospel? I can see you now: "Mr. JW, I know we disagree about crucial salvation doctrines, but I don't want to talk about that anyways. We both believe the Chicago Cubs will win the World Series this year, so let's just talk about that." :pound:

These issues are always difficult, and uncomfortable. But very important.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


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Re: Questions Concerning Catholic Church Teachings

Post by PaulSacramento »

Yes, the issues are difficult and they are important to discuss.
BUT how does one convince another that their interpretation is incorrect if they do NOT recognize any authority outside their own to interpret scripture?
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Re: Questions Concerning Catholic Church Teachings

Post by RickD »

PaulSacramento wrote:Yes, the issues are difficult and they are important to discuss.
BUT how does one convince another that their interpretation is incorrect if they do NOT recognize any authority outside their own to interpret scripture?
Maybe show them that there's no biblical basis for their church's authority in the first place. You're right though. The Catholic Church* has set itself up as THE authority. That way, it can conveniently dismiss anything or anyone that comes against it. I can't help but make the point again, that any religious institution that tells its followers what they must believe without being able to have their followers question its doctrines, stinks of control and manipulation. Scripture tells us we must test all things. The Catholic Church tells its followers that they must follow what its leaders say is the truth. Reading the bible for one's self, and letting God speak to you through His written word is frowned upon. Don't study for yourself. We'll just tell you what you should believe. :shakehead:


* I'm talking about the Catholic Church as an institution. Not the everyday Catholics that follow her doctrines.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




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Re: Questions Concerning Catholic Church Teachings

Post by PaulSacramento »

RickD wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Yes, the issues are difficult and they are important to discuss.
BUT how does one convince another that their interpretation is incorrect if they do NOT recognize any authority outside their own to interpret scripture?
Maybe show them that there's no biblical basis for their church's authority in the first place. You're right though. The Catholic Church* has set itself up as THE authority. That way, it can conveniently dismiss anything or anyone that comes against it. I can't help but make the point again, that any religious institution that tells its followers what they must believe without being able to have their followers question its doctrines, stinks of control and manipulation. Scripture tells us we must test all things. The Catholic Church tells its followers that they must follow what its leaders say is the truth. Reading the bible for one's self, and letting God speak to you through His written word is frowned upon. Don't study for yourself. We'll just tell you what you should believe. :shakehead:


* I'm talking about the Catholic Church as an institution. Not the everyday Catholics that follow her doctrines.
Yes and I agree that ANY institution that is against being questioned is an institution that does NOT have confidence in it's own teachings.

It is interesting that the very "church" that Christ established to go against the institutionalized hierarchy of the temple, became just that, an institutionalized hierarchy.
I think it is man's deep rooted desire for control and organization over each other that fosters that.
The whole notion of serving rather than being served gets lost really quick when you get power over another.
I disagree with the use of "father" to address a priest.
I disagree with the notion that ANY human or group of humans can be "infallible".
I disagree that a religion that promotes a personal relationship with Christ, puts a person or a group of people or an institution between that person and Christ.

There are many things of the Catholic faith I like and many things ( like those above) that I disagree with.
Of cruse I can say that about almost any denomination too, so...
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Re: Questions Concerning Catholic Church Teachings

Post by Philip »

As I had posted my post below on another topic ("The Warning Second Coming Website" http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 4&start=45), and as there was no response, I realized it would be more appropriately posted under this topic, concerning questions about Catholic Church teachings.

Re-posted here:
Bippy wrote:

Most of our differences stem from interpretation.
Agreed!
Who has been given the authority to interpret scripture? The church or every person on earth. This is why we have so many differences today between different churches. This is also why we are separated on Sunday when we worship our lord and savior.
EVERY Christian has the ABILITY to interpret Scripture. But as all Christians are men, there will always be sincere differences of opinion over various interpretations, and there will always be faulty interpretations. That does not mean that there are multiple correct/contradicting interpretations - there is God's truth and no other. And despite the RCC's official stance, do not for a moment assert that Catholics are monolithic in their beliefs and practices. God's truths never change, and yet RCC doctrine has unquestionably changed over the centuries, and it has added to Scripture. Catholics themselves vary in belief much as Protestants. A sampling: http://cara.georgetown.edu/sacramentsesum.pdf
Who did Christ give the power to bind and loose?
A more accurate question would also include the question of WHAT did Jesus give the power to bind (His ALREADY established truths).

From Ankerberg: "First, does this verse really say anything unique to Peter that must be restricted to him alone? Jesus said, “On this rock, I will build my church.” He did not say PETER would build His Church; He said He
would build it.
It makes more sense to conclude that the “rock” upon which Christ will build His Church is men’s confession of faith in Christ as the true Messiah—something Peter had just spoken. Personal confessions in so profound a truth as Jesus’ Messiahship—with all its personal and doctrinal implications—may certainly be described as something foundational, or rock (boulder)-like. So, this interpretation not only fits the context of the passage, it fits the facts of history and Scripture as a whole. If so, then verse 19 would also not be restricted to Peter alone, who first used these “keys” to open the “kingdom of heaven” to both Jew and Gentile alike in his preaching of the gospel (Acts 2, 10—something possible for every Christian believer. Regardless, if indeed Jesus was establishing Peter as the first pope, it is incredible that neither Peter himself, nor Paul, nor any other apostle—and NOT ONE of the twenty-seven books of the New Testament—affirms the doctrine of papalism anywhere. Indeed, it is the absence of such a doctrine that is striking."


What is the example in Scripture of how to interpret other Scripture spoken by God's chosen Apostles? Were people to accept it MERELY upon the AUTHORITY conveyed upon them by God? No! The apostles didn't appeal to their own authority, but to God's Word/God's authority found in Scripture as well as their own personal testimonies. But, very significantly, they constantly appealed to the Authority found within Scripture to buttress their contentions.

Acts 17: "Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

Even Jesus, God in the flesh, appealed to Scripture for others to correctly understand and interpret exactly Who He was (from Luke 24): "And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself."

"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world." (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

And what of Peter and the Judaizers? Did Paul appeal to his own authority to rebuke Peter? No! And if Peter was Head of the Church, how is it that Paul is able to rebuke him? How is it that Peter sinned in his "hipocrisy?" Paul used SCRIPTURE as the basis of determining the truth of the matter, and used "the truth of the Gospel" to rebuke Peter "in front of them all."

"When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray. When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?"

There cannot be multiple/contradicting truths. God does not change. He does not one day say evil is bad and another say it is good. He does not say murder is suddenly okay. And yet, Popes have contradicted Scripture, themselves and each other - but how could this be if they have the ability to speak for God Himself? Did God truths, supposedly given to them, CHANGE? Or did humans attempt to add to or change what God had already bound in His Word?

Here's a good method for interpreting and applying Scripture:

1. Find the meaning intended by the HUMAN author (remember, God divinely inspired and guided the human authors in what to write).
a. Base the study on the historical, physical, and cultural setting
b. Research each clear and important word.
c. Analyze the sentence structure.
d. Examine the grammatical context.
e. Identify and decode figurative language.
f. Interpret the passage in light of it's genre (narrative, wisdom lit, poetry, prophecy, didactic.

2. Find the meaning intended by the DIVINE Author (God!).
a. Compare scripture with scripture.
b. Establish a harmonious whole.
c. Seek explanations for apparent discrepancies.
d. Use biblical guidelines for understanding predictive prophecy.

3. Apply it to your life.
a. Receive every teaching of Scripture for yourself unless the Bible limits the audience, either in the context of the passage itself or in other Biblical teaching.
b. Respond in faith and obedience to both the direct teachings and the principles of Scripture.

Consider also the role of the Holy Spirit in guiding Believers into the truth of Scripture:

“When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth, for He will not speak on his own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak, and He will declare to you the things that are to come.” (John 16:13)

“For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.” (Romans 8:14)

And that God's truths are not a matter of interpretation:

“… knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation.” (1 Peter 1:20)

"All Scripture is breathed out BY God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness." (2 Timothy 3:16)

No man has the authority to CHANGE Scripture that has already been given as an eternal truth - notice that what was preached by the Apostles is the "word of the Lord" that remains "FOREVER":

"... but the word of the Lord remains FOREVER.” And this word is the good news that was preached to you." (1 Peter 1:25)

And from the end of Revelation 22: "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll."
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Re: Questions Concerning Catholic Church Teachings

Post by jlay »

Bravo.

:clap:
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
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Re: Questions Concerning Catholic Church Teachings

Post by RickD »

This is a post from a Catholic forum. Is there any doubt that the jesus represented in this post, is not the biblical Jesus?
On the way to Mass I was praying to Saint Joseph that he might procure for me the grace to love Jesus as he loved Jesus. During distribution of the Most Blessed Sacrament, I noticed a rather large piece (about the size of a dime) on the floor right in front of me (we was sitting in the front row). Being the Knight of Columbus that I am, I immediately got up and stood over the Most Blessed Sacrament so that no one might trample Him unawares. Maria approached Father at the end of distribution and informed him. Father immediately came to where I was standing, retrieved the Most Precious Species from the carpet, and consumed it. I returned to the pew.

Then it hit me: Saint Joseph had indeed answered my prayer, and immediately. There was Christ lying helpless, and I was called upon to stand guard over Him -- exactly as Saint Joseph had done! I was overwhelmed with tears. (I know youse guys find that hard to believe, that such a manly man as myself would actually cry, but I did.)

Praise God! And blessed be God in His angels and in His saints -- especially in Saint Joseph, model of fathers and husbands, provider and protector of the Holy Family.

This also led me to think about Saint Tarcisius, and what a great and glorious honour was given to him, not only to die for the Faith, but to die giving his life in the defence of Christ, really, truly, and substantially present in the Most Blessed Sacrament. Saint Tarcisius was beaten to death rather than hand over the Consecrated Hosts he was carrying to Christians in prison awaiting execution. Not even in death could the soldiers pry open his hand. Only when a priest came to retrieve the Sacred Elements did the hand of this young great Saint fall easily open.

Saint Joseph and Saint Tarcisius, pray for us.
A helpless Jesus? Really?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


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-Edward R Murrow




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Re: Questions Concerning Catholic Church Teachings

Post by PaulSacramento »

I think that some believers simply believe things in a way that many others can't relate.
Do I agree with what he thought in that post? nope.
But I will not judge the FAITH of another and will leave that to Christ who KNOWS what is in that man's heart.

I pray only to Christ and our Beloved Father, not to any saint BUT if a person feels that praying to a saint brings them closer to Christ then, so be it.


He that is not against Us, is For Us.

Still, I must confess that I don't care for praying to anyone other than God ( Father, Son and HS).
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Re: Questions Concerning Catholic Church Teachings

Post by RickD »

Paul,
The stuff about praying to saints and angels didn't surprise me because I understand that part of Catholicism. This is what has me troubled:
During distribution of the Most Blessed Sacrament, I noticed a rather large piece (about the size of a dime) on the floor right in front of me (we was sitting in the front row). Being the Knight of Columbus that I am, I immediately got up and stood over the Most Blessed Sacrament so that no one might trample Him unawares.
And:
There was Christ lying helpless, and I was called upon to stand guard over Him -- exactly as Saint Joseph had done!
Christ is not a cracker that can get squished on the carpet. Christ is not helpless, nor does he need our protection.
This is a different Christ.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




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Re: Questions Concerning Catholic Church Teachings

Post by PaulSacramento »

RickD wrote:Paul,
The stuff about praying to saints and angels didn't surprise me because I understand that part of Catholicism. This is what has me troubled:
During distribution of the Most Blessed Sacrament, I noticed a rather large piece (about the size of a dime) on the floor right in front of me (we was sitting in the front row). Being the Knight of Columbus that I am, I immediately got up and stood over the Most Blessed Sacrament so that no one might trample Him unawares.
And:
There was Christ lying helpless, and I was called upon to stand guard over Him -- exactly as Saint Joseph had done!
Christ is not a cracker that can get squished on the carpet. Christ is not helpless, nor does he need our protection.
This is a different Christ.
Well, IF you agree with the doctrine of "transsubstanciation" (or however you spell it) and believe that Christ is alive in the Eucharist "wafer" then, well...
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Re: Questions Concerning Catholic Church Teachings

Post by PaulSacramento »

PaulSacramento wrote:
RickD wrote:Paul,
The stuff about praying to saints and angels didn't surprise me because I understand that part of Catholicism. This is what has me troubled:
During distribution of the Most Blessed Sacrament, I noticed a rather large piece (about the size of a dime) on the floor right in front of me (we was sitting in the front row). Being the Knight of Columbus that I am, I immediately got up and stood over the Most Blessed Sacrament so that no one might trample Him unawares.
And:
There was Christ lying helpless, and I was called upon to stand guard over Him -- exactly as Saint Joseph had done!
Christ is not a cracker that can get squished on the carpet. Christ is not helpless, nor does he need our protection.
This is a different Christ.
Well, IF you agree with the doctrine of "transsubstanciation" (or however you spell it) and believe that Christ is alive in the flesh in the Eucharist "wafer" then, well...
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Re: Questions Concerning Catholic Church Teachings

Post by RickD »

PaulS wrote:
Well, IF you agree with the doctrine of "transsubstanciation" (or however you spell it) and believe that Christ is alive in the Eucharist "wafer" then, well...
Like I said, different Christ...

It's just sad that someone can be so deceived that he believes a cracker is literally Jesus Christ. Just sad...
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


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-Edward R Murrow




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Re: Questions Concerning Catholic Church Teachings

Post by PaulSacramento »

RickD wrote:
PaulS wrote:
Well, IF you agree with the doctrine of "transsubstanciation" (or however you spell it) and believe that Christ is alive in the Eucharist "wafer" then, well...
Like I said, different Christ...

It's just sad that someone can be so deceived that he believes a cracker is literally Jesus Christ. Just sad...
Well, playing the "catholic advocate side", John said that we must eat of His flesh and drink of his blood to have eternal life, so if the Eucharist doesn't become the literal body and blood of Christ, then no one has eternal life and if it DOES become His flesh and blood then He IS there.
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Re: Questions Concerning Catholic Church Teachings

Post by RickD »

PaulSacramento wrote:
RickD wrote:
PaulS wrote:
Well, IF you agree with the doctrine of "transsubstanciation" (or however you spell it) and believe that Christ is alive in the Eucharist "wafer" then, well...
Like I said, different Christ...

It's just sad that someone can be so deceived that he believes a cracker is literally Jesus Christ. Just sad...
Well, playing the "catholic advocate side", John said that we must eat of His flesh and drink of his blood to have eternal life, so if the Eucharist doesn't become the literal body and blood of Christ, then no one has eternal life and if it DOES become His flesh and blood then He IS there.
Or,

It was figurative, not literal. But since you're not catholic, you already know that. ;)
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




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