Choose Me, or ...

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1over137
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Choose Me, or ...

Postby 1over137 » Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:16 am

Hi all.

I've just read this http://goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/humans.htm.
So, without sin, without knowing the evil, we would not know and appreciate the good. Furthermore, there is written that someone (Satan) has to do the evil work (reference given to John 17:12). Well, poor that someone, who is doomed from the beginning.

Edit: I got a thought: Does Satan feel pain?
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge; My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold
-- Psalm 18:2

Katabole
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Re: Choose Me, or ...

Postby Katabole » Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:34 am

1over137 wrote:Does Satan feel pain?


Hi 1over.

Well Satan experiencing physical pain in the flesh as we do won't happen because as you know Satan wasn't created with a flesh body.

When I read Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 there seems to be at least an allusion in those chapters that in the end Satan will experience spiritual humiliation and/or soul anguish to the highest degree. I do believe Satan understands fear as mentioned in James 4:7, where fear is Satan's mind projecting within itself images of what it does not want to happen. Outside of those chapters though, it appears that Satan's arrogance is so great he probably does not even consider the concept of pain except when it comes to inflicting it on something other than himself and even then it probably brings about within him a feeling of masochistic glee; he's a true believer in the 'I never lose scenario', a spirit wasteful and pitiless. He did say after all, " ...I will be like the most High." Isa 14:14

Anyways, just my thoughts. Great question!
Well it may be the devil or it may be the Lord but you know you gotta serve somebody. Bob Dylan

Every one that is of the truth hears my voice. Jesus from John 18:37

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Re: Choose Me, or ...

Postby jlay » Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:07 am

Lots of errors in that piece.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious

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Re: Choose Me, or ...

Postby 1over137 » Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:13 am

jlay wrote:Lots of errors in that piece.

Thanks. Is also an error in my two sentences regarding the study?
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge; My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold
-- Psalm 18:2

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Re: Choose Me, or ...

Postby 1over137 » Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:38 am

First, I want to note the note (c) in John 17:12 at http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... rsion=NASB where it says "destined to perish."

Katabole wrote:When I read Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 there seems to be at least an allusion in those chapters that in the end Satan will experience spiritual humiliation and/or soul anguish to the highest degree.


I think the passages you mentioned refer to evildoers (man evildoers) and not to Satan. I would wonder when there would be passage in the Bible saying about Satan's anguish before his destruction. Because he was destined to perish, created in the way he is, with no option to change. So, I suppose his destruction will be quick and without agony.

Katabole wrote:I do believe Satan understands fear as mentioned in James 4:7, where fear is Satan's mind projecting within itself images of what it does not want to happen.


How that verse points to Satan's understanding of fear?

Thank you for your thoughts.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge; My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold
-- Psalm 18:2

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Re: Choose Me, or ...

Postby Katabole » Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:57 am

1over137 wrote:I think the passages you mentioned refer to evildoers (man evildoers) and not to Satan.


Well, at the beginning of Ezekiel 28 it is certainly speaking about a historical ancient prince of the kingdom of Tyre. But from verse 11 to 19 there is a new thought, a lamentation for the king of Tyre; not the prince. The word Tyre in the Hebrew is an interesting word and it means rock. Since you like me are a Christian, then we believe in Christ and He is our Rock. The true Rock. Therefore, this lamentation or sad song is written to the king of the false rock. And from the description of this character from verses 12-19, that he was in the garden of Eden, dressed in a garment containing jewels similar to the Levitical high priest, meaning he was a priest of sorts at one time, that he was an anointed cherub in vs 14 and had an incredibly high rank in the angelic order. And as the chapter continues it describes his fall due to pride in himself. To me that can only represent one being and that's Lucifer.

1over137 wrote:with no option to change


I believe he was given freedom to choose but has to refused to repent for all time because he wants to be God.

1over137 wrote: I would wonder when there would be passage in the Bible saying about Satan's anguish before his destruction.


I don't know if there is. But it seems that in the end, God certainly wants to make a spectacle of him in front of the congregation of souls:

Eze 28:17 ...I will cast you to the ground, I will lay you before kings, that they may behold you.

Eze 28:19 All they that know you among the people shall be astonished at you...

Isa 14:16 They that see you shall narrowly look upon you, and consider you saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, and did shake kingdoms;

I believe he is called a "man" in the above verse as a statement of degradation.

1over137 wrote:How that verse points to Satan's understanding of fear?


Well James was writing to resist the devil. The question arises, how are we to resist the devil? In other words, what has to come between Satan's attacks and the person that is being attacked? The only answer I have come up with is the gospel armour as outlined in Ephesians 6.

Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

By putting on the armour, we are essentially surrounding ourselves with the power of the Spirit. And I believe Satan will flee because he knows we cannot be fooled by him; meaning he really is afraid, not necessarily of us but of God Himself. This is not to say we won't sin even if we have the armour on; we are bound to because of our flesh nature. But by submitting ourselves to God as James tells us, Satan will flee.

I don't know if my answers are sufficient enough to satiate your curiosity on these very interesting questions but I hope it helps you.
Well it may be the devil or it may be the Lord but you know you gotta serve somebody. Bob Dylan

Every one that is of the truth hears my voice. Jesus from John 18:37

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Re: Choose Me, or ...

Postby 1over137 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:18 pm

Katabole wrote:
1over137 wrote:with no option to change

I believe he was given freedom to choose but has to refused to repent for all time because he wants to be God.

He was given freedom to choose? Is this based on Bible? How do you reconcile that with that he was 'destined to perish'?

Katabole wrote:
1over137 wrote: I would wonder when there would be passage in the Bible saying about Satan's anguish before his destruction.


I don't know if there is. But it seems that in the end, God certainly wants to make a spectacle of him in front of the congregation of souls:

Eze 28:17 ...I will cast you to the ground, I will lay you before kings, that they may behold you.

Eze 28:19 All they that know you among the people shall be astonished at you...

Isa 14:16 They that see you shall narrowly look upon you, and consider you saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, and did shake kingdoms;

I believe he is called a "man" in the above verse as a statement of degradation.

I agree about making a spectacle of him. But whether he will be in agony?

Katabole wrote:
1over137 wrote:How that verse points to Satan's understanding of fear?

Well James was writing to resist the devil. The question arises, how are we to resist the devil? In other words, what has to come between Satan's attacks and the person that is being attacked? The only answer I have come up with is the gospel armour as outlined in Ephesians 6.

Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

By putting on the armour, we are essentially surrounding ourselves with the power of the Spirit. And I believe Satan will flee because he knows we cannot be fooled by him; meaning he really is afraid, not necessarily of us but of God Himself. This is not to say we won't sin even if we have the armour on; we are bound to because of our flesh nature. But by submitting ourselves to God as James tells us, Satan will flee.

How his knowing that we cannot be fooled by him leads to a meaning that he is afraid?
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge; My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold
-- Psalm 18:2

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Re: Choose Me, or ...

Postby 1over137 » Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:43 am

Correction: John 17:12 speaks about Judas. See viewtopic.php?f=9&t=37580&p=124913#p124888
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge; My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold
-- Psalm 18:2

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Re: Choose Me, or ...

Postby Katabole » Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:14 am

1over137 wrote:He was given freedom to choose? Is this based on Bible? How do you reconcile that with that he was 'destined to perish'?


Well if Satan was destined to perish then God created him, predestinating him to ultimate destruction. I find that hard to reconcile,compared to God's character throughout the rest of scripture. I do believe in predestination as stated in Ephesians but I only believe a few souls were predestined because they earned a right to be, so God gave them a destiny (another topic for another day or check out the numerous predestination threads) :lol:

In Eze 28 (vs 14) it says, "until iniquity was discovered within him." To me that signifies that God examines His creation closely: Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness:(vs 17), Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick (vs 18). Evidently God must have closely examined him after he had done this and considering Satan said, Isa 14:13,14 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. God must have studied his character throughout the ages of time and concluded he would never change so God sentenced him to death.

1over137 wrote:But whether he will be in agony?


I don't know. I do not believe I can give you an objective response based on scripture regarding this question. Maybe others on the forum can help you out on that one.

1over137 wrote:How his knowing that we cannot be fooled by him leads to a meaning that he is afraid?


Sorry if I misled you into thinking that being fooled automatically results in equating to fear. I base my response on the word 'flee' in James 4:7. This is the Greek word for flee in this verse from Strong's concordance:

5343
pheugo
fyoo'-go
apparently a primary verb; to run away (literally or figuratively); by implication, to shun; by analogy, to vanish:--escape, flee (away).

I don't know if God created the arc angels with the ability to know fear. It leads to a conundrum of sorts because a question I asked myself a number of years ago which I didn't have a satisfactory response for (and I don't believe there is a satisfactory response for it) was, Have the angels Gabriel and Michael ever sinned because the Bible claims that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. If they did, when did they and what did they do?

If Satan doesn't know fear, then why would he flee? There would be no reason to would there? Why would a being of such power as Satan flee from the presence of a flesh human? Why would we flee from a forest fire if we know it would never burn us or hurt us in any way? Therefore, imo, I believe it is implying that he does know fear.

1over137 wrote:Correction: John 17:12 speaks about Judas. See viewtopic.php?f=9&t=37580&p=124913#p124888


I viewed the topic. The phrase 'son of perdition' is used in only one other place in scripture to my knowledge and that is in 2Thess 2:3

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

I don't believe Judas is the son of perdition as mentioned here. However, I have heard it debated both ways when Christ says he has saved all but the son of perdition meaning the only one he hasn't saved is either Judas or Satan. On the other hand it could be Judas and not Satan because Jesus says in John's Gospel:

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Imo, I believe it is Satan and not Judas who is the son of perdition or the son that perishes; the son of destruction. It just seems more consistent with the flow of scripture in both passages because it confuses me if Judas is the son of perdition Christ is speaking of but Satan is the son of perdition Paul is speaking of.

Hope that helps.
Well it may be the devil or it may be the Lord but you know you gotta serve somebody. Bob Dylan

Every one that is of the truth hears my voice. Jesus from John 18:37

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Re: Choose Me, or ...

Postby 1over137 » Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:07 am

Katabole wrote:Well if Satan was destined to perish then God created him, predestinating him to ultimate destruction. I find that hard to reconcile,compared to God's character throughout the rest of scripture.

If I am not mistaken, you think that John 17:12 speaks about Satan. Then he was destined to perish and it is hard to reconcile with the rest of Bible (e.g. Eze 28:12-15)

Katabole wrote:If Satan doesn't know fear, then why would he flee? There would be no reason to would there? Why would a being of such power as Satan flee from the presence of a flesh human? Why would we flee from a forest fire if we know it would never burn us or hurt us in any way? Therefore, imo, I believe it is implying that he does know fear.


Since the word 'flee' is used, it may indicate to his fear. Otherwise word like 'step away' probably would be used.

Katabole wrote:Imo, I believe it is Satan and not Judas who is the son of perdition or the son that perishes; the son of destruction. It just seems more consistent with the flow of scripture in both passages because it confuses me if Judas is the son of perdition Christ is speaking of but Satan is the son of perdition Paul is speaking of.


So, your opinion differs with B.W.'s opinion.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge; My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold
-- Psalm 18:2

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Re: Choose Me, or ...

Postby Tina » Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:06 pm

1over137 wrote:Hi all.

I've just read this http://goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/humans.htm.
So, without sin, without knowing the evil, we would not know and appreciate the good. Furthermore, there is written that someone (Satan) has to do the evil work (reference given to John 17:12). Well, poor that someone, who is doomed from the beginning.

Edit: I got a thought: Does Satan feel pain?


Hmmm I don't agree. GOD is good, pure, and love. He existed without evil existing. He made Adam and Eve, who existed for some time with evil. They enjoyed GOD's love without having to compare it to evil.

Example- You can enjoy a beautiful white coat ( love ). Say the coat gets horrible black stains ( sin ). Those stains don't make the white of the coat any more beautiful than it already was, in fact it hides the beauty and can destroy the precious coat.
"Love others as I have loved you." -Jesus Christ

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Re: Choose Me, or ...

Postby Ivellious » Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:16 pm

Well, I have to say, after reading the article in the original post, these people seem a little off (the authors, that is). I mean, they literally say that if you give your body, mind, and will over to Jesus, and let Jesus make all your decisions, that you will be healthy. And they say that all Christians who die of disease are just not fully giving themselves to Jesus. And they seem to allude that the problem with "Christians" who don't get better is that they are going to doctors instead of Jesus. I mean, the last little bit is kind of freaky and sounds like a big zombie-creator.

As for the rest of it, the writer's conclusions just seem to be a bit off. I do agree with the notion that without bad things, appreciating good things would be impossible. Other than that the article seems bogus.

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Re: Choose Me, or ...

Postby BavarianWheels » Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:54 pm

Tina wrote:Hmmm I don't agree. GOD is good, pure, and love. He existed without evil existing. He made Adam and Eve, who existed for some time with evil. They enjoyed GOD's love without having to compare it to evil.


If God exists, evil will always exist otherwise there is no definition of good.

Much like

Isaiah 45:7 wrote: I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.

.
.
Image

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Re: Choose Me, or ...

Postby Callisto » Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:47 am

Katabole wrote:I don't know if God created the arc angels with the ability to know fear. It leads to a conundrum of sorts because a question I asked myself a number of years ago which I didn't have a satisfactory response for (and I don't believe there is a satisfactory response for it) was, Have the angels Gabriel and Michael ever sinned because the Bible claims that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. If they did, when did they and what did they do?


I always thought that the "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" bit was about humanity, not angels or other celestial beings. Otherwise all the angels would be fallen, would they not? Further I think that (in a middle-knowledge Molinist view) that God created the angels and humanity with the ability to choose if they want to abide by him - but God knows that many will refuse and could be said to be "destined". They were still given a choice but also destined because it may be that in any circumstance God put Lucifer, the other fallen angels, and human beings in, they would always choose to disobey God - therefore a "predestined" situation.

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Re: Choose Me, or ...

Postby RickD » Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:16 am

Callisto wrote:
Katabole wrote:I don't know if God created the arc angels with the ability to know fear. It leads to a conundrum of sorts because a question I asked myself a number of years ago which I didn't have a satisfactory response for (and I don't believe there is a satisfactory response for it) was, Have the angels Gabriel and Michael ever sinned because the Bible claims that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. If they did, when did they and what did they do?


I always thought that the "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" bit was about humanity, not angels or other celestial beings. Otherwise all the angels would be fallen, would they not? Further I think that (in a middle-knowledge Molinist view) that God created the angels and humanity with the ability to choose if they want to abide by him - but God knows that many will refuse and could be said to be "destined". They were still given a choice but also destined because it may be that in any circumstance God put Lucifer, the other fallen angels, and human beings in, they would always choose to disobey God - therefore a "predestined" situation.

Callisto, I think the context of Romans 3 makes it pretty clear that the "all" in "all have sinned" refers to humanity. Adding angels to the mix, is clearly adding something that wasn't intended. Just look at Romans 3:22-23: 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Unless angels are Jews and Gentiles...
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony


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