Several questions concerning the fall and evil

[MAGSolo]

So God didnt forgive them because he doesnt change, thats your answer? So are we to follow the same example then. Dont forgive because we dont change. If you wrong me in some way I should not forgive you because I dont change?

Hmmm...you'll have to give me biblical references to back up what you're saying. You have made these affirmations:

1. God didn't forgive Adam & Eve.
2. We are to follow God's example in not changing.
3. We are not to forgive.
4. We are not to forgive because we are not to change.

I sure hope you are not a house painter...because you paint very inaccurately!

Please avoid posting stuff under emotion. Write from the heart and write intelligently; think, then post.

FL

I asked why didnt God just forgive Adam and Eve and the answer I received was "because God doesnt change". Im simply responding to the answer I got

God did forgive them.
Forgiveness does NOT = allowing a "crime" to go unpunished.

Actually that is precisely what forgiveness means. To forgive someone means to grant pardon for an offense without taking action against the offender.

[MAGSolo]

In other words when Christ said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" He was asking his father to pardon them which means to not take action for an offense. Forgiveness means letting a transgression go unpunished.

[PaulSacramento]

Well, that is ONE interpretation:
for·give
   [fer-giv] Show IPA verb, for·gave, for·giv·en, for·giv·ing.
verb (used with object)
1.
to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.); absolve.
2.
to give up all claim on account of; remit (a debt, obligation, etc.).
3.
to grant pardon to (a person).
4.
to cease to feel resentment against: to forgive one's enemies.
5.
to cancel an indebtedness or liability of: to forgive the interest owed on a loan.

None of that equals that a person doesn't still have to "do the time".
If a person commits a crime, he may be forgiven by the victim of the crime, but he will still do the jail time ( or some form of penance).

You are looking at the legality of the term, when in goes beyond that with God.
God forgives our sins when we repent, God forgives not because God HAS to, but because God loves us and chooses to, BUT God is a just God is he not?

[PaulSacramento]

In other words when Christ said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" He was asking his father to pardon them which means to not take action for an offense. Forgiveness means letting a transgression go unpunished.

And it would fall on God to decide IF God would forgive them and HOW God would forgive them.
You mention unpunished, to really think that when one realizes they have wronged God, God who loves them so much, that even with His forgivenss, there is no "punishment" per say? I mean, when we wrong some one we love and they forgive us, how do we feel?

[MAGSolo]

So what then will prevent us from sinning in heaven? Will we no longer have free will?

That my friend is something I do not know. And is something I have often pondered myself. I am presuming that either at that point our freewill is restricted or otherwise through the process of us being transformed by the Holy Spirit to being more Christ like and when we finally see the glory of God - then sinning will not even occur to us. Don''t know. Any others on the board can spread light on this one?

Silvertusk.

So then why could he just not create us this way from the beginning? If we may have restricted freewill in heaven, then it seems that complete freewill isnt really that important. If it was inevitable that Adam and Eve would sin, why bother giving us complete freewill at all. You said that God had a plan so what was the plan?

[MAGSolo]

In other words when Christ said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" He was asking his father to pardon them which means to not take action for an offense. Forgiveness means letting a transgression go unpunished.

And it would fall on God to decide IF God would forgive them and HOW God would forgive them.
You mention unpunished, to really think that when one realizes they have wronged God, God who loves them so much, that even with His forgivenss, there is no "punishment" per say? I mean, when we wrong some one we love and they forgive us, how do we feel?

We are getting away from my point. My point is this: Humans have lived in a world of death, pain, and suffering, throughout human history. According to you this is Gods punishment for Adam and Eve eating the fruit he told them not to. Adam and Eve eat fruit he told them not to, Gods punishment is pain, suffering, and death for all humanity. Im asking how that is reasonable. God said that Eve will give birth in pain because she ate the fruit, so now every woman ever must suffer and often die during childbirth because the original woman ate a piece of fruit she wasnt supposed to, how is that reasonable? Furthermore, how is cursing Eve to suffer horribly during childbirth forgiveness? Does that sound like forgiveness to you? See Im not saying that Adam and Eve should not have been punished at all. My point is that the punishment is so severe that it cast severe doubt on the veracity of the story at all. Its such an extreme and over the top punishment for an entity that is supposed to be "good" "caring" "forgiving" and "loving". God could have kicked them out of Eden for a month or a year but he chose to make every woman from that day forth suffer terribly when giving birth, he took away Adam and Eves immortality and he allowed suffering and evil to run free on the Earth. I dont see where the forgiveness is in that at all.

[PaulSacramento]

In other words when Christ said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" He was asking his father to pardon them which means to not take action for an offense. Forgiveness means letting a transgression go unpunished.

And it would fall on God to decide IF God would forgive them and HOW God would forgive them.
You mention unpunished, to really think that when one realizes they have wronged God, God who loves them so much, that even with His forgivenss, there is no "punishment" per say? I mean, when we wrong some one we love and they forgive us, how do we feel?

We are getting away from my point. My point is this: Humans have lived in a world of death, pain, and suffering, throughout human history. According to you this is Gods punishment for Adam and Eve eating the fruit he told them not to. Adam and Eve eat fruit he told them not to, Gods punishment is pain, suffering, and death for all humanity. Im asking how that is reasonable. God said that Eve will give birth in pain because she ate the fruit, so now every woman ever must suffer and often die during childbirth because the original woman ate a piece of fruit she wasnt supposed to, how is that reasonable? Furthermore, how is cursing Eve to suffer horribly during childbirth forgiveness? Does that sound like forgiveness to you? See Im not saying that Adam and Eve should not have been punished at all. My point is that the punishment is so severe that it cast severe doubt on the veracity of the story at all. Its such an extreme and over the top punishment for an entity that is supposed to be "good" "caring" "forgiving" and "loving". God could have kicked them out of Eden for a month or a year but he chose to make every woman from that day forth suffer terribly when giving birth, he took away Adam and Eves immortality and he allowed suffering and evil to run free on the Earth. I dont see where the forgiveness is in that at all.

Where did I say THAT is God punishment ??
I know that SOME view what God said to Adma and Eve as a "curse" even, not so IMO.
God was making a statement of fact about how their lives were gonna be NOW that THEY decided to go their "own way".
That God remained with them and loved them and US is, to me, evident.
I mean, IF you wanna read it as a punishment, that's fine.
I don't so don't say that I said it was a punishment.
Certainly God says "cursed is..." but we do NOT have to take it as "I curse you..." and it can most certainly be read as ,"because you have done this, cursed will be your life...".
Much like one would say: " Because you have decided to follow a life of law breaking, you will have a cursed life".

[MAGSolo]

So God didnt curse Eve to suffer during childbirth? and how is it evident that God remained with them and loved them and us as you put it?

[PaulSacramento]

So God didnt curse Eve to suffer during childbirth?

Well, yes you can view it as a curse, God most certainly says that:
To the woman He said,

“I will greatly multiply

Your pain [e]in childbirth,

In pain you will bring forth children;

Yet your desire will be for your husband,

And he will rule over you.”

and to Adam he says:

“Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’;

Cursed is the ground because of you;

In [f]toil you will eat of it

All the days of your life.

18 “Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;

And you will eat the [g]plants of the field;

19 By the sweat of your face

You will eat bread,

Till you return to the ground,

Because from it you were taken;

For you are dust,

And to dust you shall return.”

Or you can see it as God giving them what THEY wanted: Independence from God and all that comes with being ONE with God.

[MAGSolo]

You said it is evident that God stayed with them and loved them and us. How is it evident to you?

[RickD]

MAGSolo, I think you're assuming something the biblical text doesn't say. Let me try to explain.

Adam and Eve eat fruit he told them not to, Gods punishment is pain, suffering, and death for all humanity.

Adam, Eve and the serpent were the only ones punished for their own transgressions.
The serpent's punishment:

Genesis 3:14-1514 And Jehovah God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Eve's punishment:

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy pain and thy conception; in pain thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Notice the text says that Eve's pains would be increased. The pains of childbirth were already present. It's the increase in pains, that's the punishment.
Adam's punishment:

Genesis 3:17-1917 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

MAGSolo wrote:

so now every woman ever must suffer and often die during childbirth because the original woman ate a piece of fruit she wasnt supposed to, how is that reasonable?

The wages of sin is death Romans 6:23 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
All die, because all sin.

MAGSolo wrote:

Furthermore, how is cursing Eve to suffer horribly during childbirth forgiveness?

The text doesn't say Eve suffered horribly. The text says her pains would be increased.

MAGSolo wrote:

God could have kicked them out of Eden for a month or a year but he chose to make every woman from that day forth suffer terribly when giving birth, he took away Adam and Eves immortality and he allowed suffering and evil to run free on the Earth.

God removed them from Eden, and blocked their access to the tree of life
Genesis 3:24 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden the Cherubim, and the flame of a sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Now that Adam was spiritually dead, God did not allow him to take of the tree of life, to live forever physically. This was actually a blessing, not a curse. If man, who was spiritually dead, would live forever physically, he would do irreperable, and eternal damage to the rest of mankind.

Now, God did have a plan to redeem mankind. In fact, God had this plan before the foundation of the world. Before Adam sinned. It wasn't a contingency plan on God's part. It was God's plan for mankind, all along.
1Peter 1:20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

[PaulSacramento]

You said it is evident that God stayed with them and loved them and us. How is it evident to you?

Well, even if we ignore the rest of ALL the bible and focus only in regards to Adam and Eve:
God clothed them:
21 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.

RE: Cain-
14 Behold, You have driven me this day from the face of the ground; and from Your face I will be hidden, and I will be a vagrant and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.” 15 So the Lord said to him, “Therefore whoever kills Cain, vengeance will be taken on him sevenfold.” And the Lord [g] appointed a sign for Cain, so that no one finding him would slay him.

Re: Enoch -
21 Enoch lived sixty-five years, and became the father of Methuselah. 22 Then Enoch walked with God three hundred years after he became the father of Methuselah, and he had other sons and daughters. 23 So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. 24 Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.

and so forth

[MAGSolo]

And how is it evident that God loves us?

[PaulSacramento]

And how is it evident that God loves us?

Jesus Christ.
If that isn't good enough (though for a Christian it is more than enough) and we take the view that God DOES exist and that God is GOD.
The simple fact that God still sustains US ( the universe in whole and humans in particular) and has not "wiped us off" the face of the planet, no matter how much crap we've done.
Well, if that ain't love...
God created us out of love ( by Us I mean US and the universe), there is no reason to think that God created the universe for any other reason other than a supreme act of love.

[MAGSolo]

Rick D. The text says: I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception. In pain thou shalt bring forth children. If he is telling her that she shall bring forth children in pain, that doesnt sound like the pain was already there. It seems pretty clear that he is saying that because you have done this thing I have told you not to do, now you will conceive children in pain and sorrow. Why would God create Eve to conceive in pain from the moment he created her? Pain is not a necessity of childbirth as man species give birth without pain.

The text doesn't say Eve suffered horribly. The text says her pains would be increased

KJV: I will greatly multiply thou sorrow
NIV: I will make your pains in childbearing very severe