Several questions concerning the fall and evil

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MAGSolo
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Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Postby MAGSolo » Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:56 am

I have several questions revolving around my doubt that the biblical Christian God is reconcilable with an evil world. My first question is what exactly was the fall? Its seem in the bible that it was a curse so what exactly did this curse do? My next question is how was the curse of the fall a reasonable and just punishment for what Adam and Eve did? It is often described as a rebellion against God but it seems from the bible that what happened was Satan allegedly tricked Eve into eating the fruit and then she talked Adam into eating the fruit basically telling him it wasnt that bad. Why was allowing death and suffering against all further humans (and even animals) a reasonable and just punishment for two people eating a piece of fruit they were told not to? This essentially means that every day people are murdered, raped, children are abused and etc. because two people ate a piece of fruit they were not supposed to. Millions of Jews during the Holocaust were wiped out because two people ate a piece of fruit thousands of years ago. Millions of slaves throughout human history toiled from dawn till dusk their entire lives and were often mistreated, abused, raped, and outright killed because two people ate a piece of fruit thousands of years ago. Not to mention all of those who suffer and die from disease, the many innocent children that go hungry and often starve and countless other atrocities that occur every day and have occurred every day throughout history. Why did God look at Adam and Eve eating the fruit he told them not to and decide that allowing all manner of suffering on all the rest of humanity from that day forward was a reasonable punishment. And its not even like they schemed to eat the fruit, but it seems they were content not to even be bothered with it until the devil (allegedly) approached them and tempted them. Eve even told satan (allegedly) that God said they were not to eat the fruit lest they die and Satan told them this was not the case. So God decided to punish all of humanity because Eve was tricked into eating some fruit and then gave it to Adam. Doesnt seem very reasonable at all. What reasonable father or mother would punish all of his children because one of them got caught eating cookies before dinner when they had been told not to? Furthermore what reasonable mother or father would punish all of their children in an extremely severe way for the transgressions of one child?

Lastly, why did God not simply forgive Adam and Eve for their transgression and tell them not to do it again. The importance of forgiveness is repeated again and again in the new testament and Jesus himself asked God to forgive those who had beaten and crucified him because they didnt know what they were doing? So Jesus (who is supposed to be God) could find it in his heart to outright forgive those who were killing him but yet God decided that a curse of death and suffering was a reasonable response to Adam and Eve being tricked into eating fruit he told them not to? Again this does not make sense. My point is that this to me is very damning evidence that the biblical God does not exist. It is hard enough to imagine an all powerful, good, loving creator that would just sit by while any sort of evil was visited upon innocent people from the lone helpless child that endures abuse to the systematic extermination of thousands to millions of people at a time. That notion itself is pretty ridiculous but the fact that God thinks this is reasonable because "Adam and Eve ate that fruit all those years back" is absolutely ridiculous. If anything one could very easily argue that humanity has suffered more than Adam and Eve ever had to and they were the ones who allegedly committed the original sin. In what way is that reasonable, just, or fair.

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Furstentum Liechtenstein
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Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Postby Furstentum Liechtenstein » Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:02 pm

MAGSolo wrote:My first question is what exactly was the fall? Its seem in the bible that it was a curse so what exactly did this curse do?


The Fall is described in Genesis, chapter 3. Essentially, it is the disobedience of Adam & Eve when they took of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good & evil. The curse, Gen 3:14-19, resulted in the following:

-the serpent is to slither on its belly whereas previously it was a beautiful creature,
-women will be afraid of serpents,
-Christ (the seed of the woman) will crush Satan's head (overcome Satan),
-Satan will bruise Christ's heel (usurp Christ's dominion for a time),
-women would have pain in childbearing,
-women would desire and be led by their husbands,
-the ground would no longer bear fruit bountifully and without labor,
-hard work would be required to make the earth produce a crop,
-and, man would die at the end of his life.

MAGSolo wrote:My next question is how was the curse of the fall a reasonable and just punishment for what Adam and Eve did?


Adam & Eve were warned (Gen 2:15) that death would result from disobedience. God is just and carried out his word. He is also merciful because he didn't sentence them to death right there and then. In a sense, they went to prison for the rest of their lives, then sentence was carried out.

MAGSolo wrote:Why was allowing death and suffering against all further humans (and even animals) a reasonable and just punishment for two people eating a piece of fruit they were told not to? This essentially means that every day people are murdered, raped, children are abused and etc. because two people ate a piece of fruit they were not supposed to.


You are describing human nature. God created us with free will and we pervert ourselves by acting against our own best interests. We smoke, we drink, we gamble our life savings, we murder, we gossip, we insult others, we are hypocrites, we lie, we fornicate, we steal...do I need to go on? Humans naturally do these things and we are responsible for the murders, the rapes, the wars and so on. God isn't responsible; saying he is would be like blaming your speeding ticket on the car you drive. Not smart.

MAGSolo wrote: So God decided to punish all of humanity because Eve was tricked into eating some fruit and then gave it to Adam. Doesnt seem very reasonable at all. What reasonable father or mother would punish all of his children because one of them got caught eating cookies before dinner when they had been told not to? Furthermore what reasonable mother or father would punish all of their children in an extremely severe way for the transgressions of one child?


If I punish my child, am I punishing my unborn great-grandchildren as well? According to your reasoning, I am! If my adult child decides to become a theif and robs people of their property, or kills them, or tortures them, am I responsible? According to your reasoning, I am! Eve wasn't tricked, she deliberately did what she was told not to do, ditto for Adam. If a police officer stops you for speeding, are you going to blame the engineer who conceived your car? According to your reasoning, you are!

MAGSolo wrote:Lastly, why did God not simply forgive Adam and Eve for their transgression and tell them not to do it again.


Because God doesn't change. He said what he said and they got what was coming. God did offer them mercy and a Savior was promised, and came.

FL
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

+ + +

If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.

+ + +

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Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Postby BavarianWheels » Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:12 pm

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
MAGSolo wrote:Lastly, why did God not simply forgive Adam and Eve for their transgression and tell them not to do it again.


Because God doesn't change. He said what he said and they got what was coming. God did offer them mercy and a Savior was promised, and came.

FL


God made the first animal sacrifice ( Genesis 3:21 ) to describe the only legal manner ( as God is Just ) in which sin can be overcome. Innocent blood...and not just any blood ( as only God is Righteous ), but God's own blood ( Christ ) as promised to Adam. The animal was just a shadow of God coming and laying His own life down ( God so loves... ).
.
.
Image

MAGSolo
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Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Postby MAGSolo » Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:22 pm

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
MAGSolo wrote:My first question is what exactly was the fall? Its seem in the bible that it was a curse so what exactly did this curse do?


The Fall is described in Genesis, chapter 3. Essentially, it is the disobedience of Adam & Eve when they took of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good & evil. The curse, Gen 3:14-19, resulted in the following:

-the serpent is to slither on its belly whereas previously it was a beautiful creature,
-women will be afraid of serpents,
-Christ (the seed of the woman) will crush Satan's head (overcome Satan),
-Satan will bruise Christ's heel (usurp Christ's dominion for a time),
-women would have pain in childbearing,
-women would desire and be led by their husbands,
-the ground would no longer bear fruit bountifully and without labor,
-hard work would be required to make the earth produce a crop,
-and, man would die at the end of his life.

MAGSolo wrote:My next question is how was the curse of the fall a reasonable and just punishment for what Adam and Eve did?


Adam & Eve were warned (Gen 2:15) that death would result from disobedience. God is just and carried out his word. He is also merciful because he didn't sentence them to death right there and then. In a sense, they went to prison for the rest of their lives, then sentence was carried out.

My question is how is death and suffering for all of humanity a just and reasonable punishment. God said if you eat the fruit you will surely die, he didnt say I will allow evil to run free on Earth and all your descendants from now until the end of time will be subject to death and evil. So again, how is allowing death and evil into the world against all of humanity a just punishment for what Adam and Eve did?

MAGSolo wrote:Why was allowing death and suffering against all further humans (and even animals) a reasonable and just punishment for two people eating a piece of fruit they were told not to? This essentially means that every day people are murdered, raped, children are abused and etc. because two people ate a piece of fruit they were not supposed to.


You are describing human nature. God created us with free will and we pervert ourselves by acting against our own best interests. We smoke, we drink, we gamble our life savings, we murder, we gossip, we insult others, we are hypocrites, we lie, we fornicate, we steal...do I need to go on? Humans naturally do these things and we are responsible for the murders, the rapes, the wars and so on. God isn't responsible; saying he is would be like blaming your speeding ticket on the car you drive. Not smart.

You havent answered the question at all. Look at what you quoted and look at your response. I asked why was allowing death, and suffering against all humanity a reasonable punishment for adam and eve eating fruit. Your response says that people do bad things because that is human nature. Ill humor you though. Why did God who is supposed to be good create humans with an evil nature?

MAGSolo wrote: So God decided to punish all of humanity because Eve was tricked into eating some fruit and then gave it to Adam. Doesnt seem very reasonable at all. What reasonable father or mother would punish all of his children because one of them got caught eating cookies before dinner when they had been told not to? Furthermore what reasonable mother or father would punish all of their children in an extremely severe way for the transgressions of one child?


If I punish my child, am I punishing my unborn great-grandchildren as well? According to your reasoning, I am!
How is that my reasoning? We die and are subjected to evil because of the fall (allegedly) God allowed death and suffering into the world because adam and eve ate the fruit, therefore we bear the burden of the fall brought on by the actions of adam and eve. Thats not my reasoning, thats what the bible says and my question is how is that reasonable?
If my adult child decides to become a theif and robs people of their property, or kills them, or tortures them, am I responsible? According to your reasoning, I am!
Again you arent making any sense here at all
Eve wasn't tricked, she deliberately did what she was told not to do, ditto for Adam. If a police officer stops you for speeding, are you going to blame the engineer who conceived your car? According to your reasoning, you are!
It seems in the bible that Eve was tricked. The serpent told her that it was okay to eat the fruit, Eve said that God said if I eat it I will die, the devil told her she wouldnt die. That sounds like being tricked to me.

MAGSolo wrote:Lastly, why did God not simply forgive Adam and Eve for their transgression and tell them not to do it again.


Because God doesn't change. He said what he said and they got what was coming. God did offer them mercy and a Savior was promised, and came.

FL

So God didnt forgive them because he doesnt change, thats your answer? So are we to follow the same example then. Dont forgive because we dont change. If you wrong me in some way I should not forgive you because I dont change?

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Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Postby MAGSolo » Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:24 pm

BavarianWheels wrote:
Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
MAGSolo wrote:Lastly, why did God not simply forgive Adam and Eve for their transgression and tell them not to do it again.


Because God doesn't change. He said what he said and they got what was coming. God did offer them mercy and a Savior was promised, and came.

FL


God made the first animal sacrifice ( Genesis 3:21 ) to describe the only legal manner ( as God is Just ) in which sin can be overcome. Innocent blood...and not just any blood ( as only God is Righteous ), but God's own blood ( Christ ) as promised to Adam. The animal was just a shadow of God coming and laying His own life down ( God so loves... ).
.
.

Why was innocent blood the only way sin could be overcome? Why could God not just say I forgive you and let it be at that?

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Furstentum Liechtenstein
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Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Postby Furstentum Liechtenstein » Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:17 pm

BavarianWheels wrote:God made the first animal sacrifice ( Genesis 3:21 ) to describe the only legal manner ( as God is Just ) in which sin can be overcome. Innocent blood...and not just any blood ( as only God is Righteous ), but God's own blood ( Christ ) as promised to Adam. The animal was just a shadow of God coming and laying His own life down ( God so loves... ).


Yes, but go slowly. Baby steps. Too much information will just confuse at this point. 2nd graders don't need trigonometry. Let the OP lead with questions.

FL
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

+ + +

If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.

+ + +

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Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Postby Furstentum Liechtenstein » Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:14 am

MAGSolo wrote:So God didnt forgive them because he doesnt change, thats your answer? So are we to follow the same example then. Dont forgive because we dont change. If you wrong me in some way I should not forgive you because I dont change?


Hmmm...you'll have to give me biblical references to back up what you're saying. You have made these affirmations:

1. God didn't forgive Adam & Eve.
2. We are to follow God's example in not changing.
3. We are not to forgive.
4. We are not to forgive because we are not to change.

I sure hope you are not a house painter...because you paint very inaccurately!

Please avoid posting stuff under emotion. Write from the heart and write intelligently; think, then post.

FL
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

+ + +

If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.

+ + +

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Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Postby Silvertusk » Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:20 am

MAGSolo wrote:I have several questions revolving around my doubt that the biblical Christian God is reconcilable with an evil world. My first question is what exactly was the fall? Its seem in the bible that it was a curse so what exactly did this curse do? My next question is how was the curse of the fall a reasonable and just punishment for what Adam and Eve did? It is often described as a rebellion against God but it seems from the bible that what happened was Satan allegedly tricked Eve into eating the fruit and then she talked Adam into eating the fruit basically telling him it wasnt that bad. Why was allowing death and suffering against all further humans (and even animals) a reasonable and just punishment for two people eating a piece of fruit they were told not to? This essentially means that every day people are murdered, raped, children are abused and etc. because two people ate a piece of fruit they were not supposed to. Millions of Jews during the Holocaust were wiped out because two people ate a piece of fruit thousands of years ago. Millions of slaves throughout human history toiled from dawn till dusk their entire lives and were often mistreated, abused, raped, and outright killed because two people ate a piece of fruit thousands of years ago. Not to mention all of those who suffer and die from disease, the many innocent children that go hungry and often starve and countless other atrocities that occur every day and have occurred every day throughout history. Why did God look at Adam and Eve eating the fruit he told them not to and decide that allowing all manner of suffering on all the rest of humanity from that day forward was a reasonable punishment. And its not even like they schemed to eat the fruit, but it seems they were content not to even be bothered with it until the devil (allegedly) approached them and tempted them. Eve even told satan (allegedly) that God said they were not to eat the fruit lest they die and Satan told them this was not the case. So God decided to punish all of humanity because Eve was tricked into eating some fruit and then gave it to Adam. Doesnt seem very reasonable at all. What reasonable father or mother would punish all of his children because one of them got caught eating cookies before dinner when they had been told not to? Furthermore what reasonable mother or father would punish all of their children in an extremely severe way for the transgressions of one child?

Lastly, why did God not simply forgive Adam and Eve for their transgression and tell them not to do it again. The importance of forgiveness is repeated again and again in the new testament and Jesus himself asked God to forgive those who had beaten and crucified him because they didnt know what they were doing? So Jesus (who is supposed to be God) could find it in his heart to outright forgive those who were killing him but yet God decided that a curse of death and suffering was a reasonable response to Adam and Eve being tricked into eating fruit he told them not to? Again this does not make sense. My point is that this to me is very damning evidence that the biblical God does not exist. It is hard enough to imagine an all powerful, good, loving creator that would just sit by while any sort of evil was visited upon innocent people from the lone helpless child that endures abuse to the systematic extermination of thousands to millions of people at a time. That notion itself is pretty ridiculous but the fact that God thinks this is reasonable because "Adam and Eve ate that fruit all those years back" is absolutely ridiculous. If anything one could very easily argue that humanity has suffered more than Adam and Eve ever had to and they were the ones who allegedly committed the original sin. In what way is that reasonable, just, or fair.


Some excellent points raised there.

The whole matter is that you have to look at it from the point of view before creation. How does an all just and holy God create a race of beings with full freewill and allow them to coexist with him in Heaven. It seems impossible because a race of freewill beings will sin. So he decided that he would sacrifice himself to pay the price allowing us to live with him in Heaven. There wasn't any doubt that Adam and Eve would disobeyed God - it was just a question of when. A plan was already set.

Most of the things you described in your post are mainly more examples of where man has disobeyed God. God is not responsible for any of it. But he has already saved us.

Do you thing because of the inevitability of us sinning God should not have bothered creating us at all? How else could he have done it and still allowed us perfect freewill?

Silvertusk.

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Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Postby MAGSolo » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:03 am

So what then will prevent us from sinning in heaven? Will we no longer have free will?

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Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Postby PaulSacramento » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:05 am

To keep things simple ( not that theology is ever that simple):
The fall was the result of "MAN" ( symbolised by Adam and Eve who quite probably WERE real people, the first of their kind in Eden) wanting to be "like" God and to not "depend" on God, to be independent from God.
Because Man was designed to rely and relate and be with God, Man's state is "fallen" and "broken" until Man once again is ONE with God.
Every human "inherited" that "sin", that trait of wanting to do it "on their own".
Understanding this is the first step.

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Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Postby PaulSacramento » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:06 am

MAGSolo wrote:So what then will prevent us from sinning in heaven? Will we no longer have free will?


The angels in heaven have free will and they (some) sinned.

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Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Postby Silvertusk » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:08 am

MAGSolo wrote:So what then will prevent us from sinning in heaven? Will we no longer have free will?


That my friend is something I do not know. And is something I have often pondered myself. I am presuming that either at that point our freewill is restricted or otherwise through the process of us being transformed by the Holy Spirit to being more Christ like and when we finally see the glory of God - then sinning will not even occur to us. Don''t know. Any others on the board can spread light on this one?

Silvertusk.

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Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Postby MAGSolo » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:11 am

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
MAGSolo wrote:So God didnt forgive them because he doesnt change, thats your answer? So are we to follow the same example then. Dont forgive because we dont change. If you wrong me in some way I should not forgive you because I dont change?


Hmmm...you'll have to give me biblical references to back up what you're saying. You have made these affirmations:

1. God didn't forgive Adam & Eve.
2. We are to follow God's example in not changing.
3. We are not to forgive.
4. We are not to forgive because we are not to change.

I sure hope you are not a house painter...because you paint very inaccurately!

Please avoid posting stuff under emotion. Write from the heart and write intelligently; think, then post.

FL

I asked why didnt God just forgive Adam and Eve and the answer I received was "because God doesnt change". Im simply responding to the answer I got

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Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Postby PaulSacramento » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:15 am

MAGSolo wrote:
Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
MAGSolo wrote:So God didnt forgive them because he doesnt change, thats your answer? So are we to follow the same example then. Dont forgive because we dont change. If you wrong me in some way I should not forgive you because I dont change?


Hmmm...you'll have to give me biblical references to back up what you're saying. You have made these affirmations:

1. God didn't forgive Adam & Eve.
2. We are to follow God's example in not changing.
3. We are not to forgive.
4. We are not to forgive because we are not to change.

I sure hope you are not a house painter...because you paint very inaccurately!

Please avoid posting stuff under emotion. Write from the heart and write intelligently; think, then post.

FL

I asked why didnt God just forgive Adam and Eve and the answer I received was "because God doesnt change". Im simply responding to the answer I got



God did forgive them.
Forgiveness does NOT = allowing a "crime" to go unpunished.

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Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Postby MAGSolo » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:16 am

PaulSacramento wrote:To keep things simple ( not that theology is ever that simple):
The fall was the result of "MAN" ( symbolised by Adam and Eve who quite probably WERE real people, the first of their kind in Eden) wanting to be "like" God and to not "depend" on God, to be independent from God.
Because Man was designed to rely and relate and be with God, Man's state is "fallen" and "broken" until Man once again is ONE with God.
Every human "inherited" that "sin", that trait of wanting to do it "on their own".
Understanding this is the first step.

"Mans state is fallen and broken"
What does this mean?


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