Evidence for God from Science

Montana wrote:I suspect that my query would be better served on a philosophical forum than a Christian forum. While the site is quite valuable with excellent content and articles, it would seem the forums (the community) is rather eclectic and cliquish and not open to assisting others in their path and struggle in faith.

I apologize for upsetting the community with theological and philosophical questions. Perhaps a qualified pastor is the better source to go to.

Interesting...so because we "cannot" answer your query to your satisfaction or that of an atheist, we are deemed eclectic and cliquish and not open to assisting. 5 pages + and we aren't open to assisting. Which part of THIS query is a struggle in your path? Didn't you say you understand this but cannot explain it to atheists TO THEIR satisfaction? Somehow me thinks the closed mind is more you than we OR the atheist.
.
.

Gman wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:Totally correct. I have not argued that homosexual acts are not of choice. THE ACTS are of choice, however IF sin has corrupted humanity down to genetic gender affections (as I *think* it has), then there is no CHOICE in chooseing WHO those acts are acted out with. There is no chance for me, as a heterosexual, to ever have thoughts of engaging in homosexual acts with another male. It's utterly repulsive to me.

Well I disagree with that.. That's a double standard on the grounds that genetics have a play in someone's choice. Then technically it isn't a choice, it's how the person is wired. Now you could argue that a homosexual has formed a sin habit, just like any other habit, but habits can be broken. Nonetheless, it still boils down to choice. And for the record, I've had many sin habits, but I've chosen to break them all..

"If homosexuality is not chosen, but actually is a biologically-determined characteristic over which we have no choice, then laws should not treat gays and straights differently, since homosexuality would be equivalent to one's race, over which we have no control." -Rich Deem

Source: http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/ ... ality.html

Disagree. No problem. However it is not a double standard. Do you CHOOSE who you find attractive or is it genetic in that you are male?

Formed a sin habit...excellent. So the children that are feminine in nature from a very early age have chosen homosexuality while never understanding the difference?

Just because you quote Rich Deem, doesn't make that position THE correct position. I can't prove genetic homosexuality and you can't prove it's 100% choice. Whether I am right or not really makes no difference at all. If homosexuality is a choice struggle, then it's no different than any other sinful act of choice that we all struggle with and YET call ourselves Christian and saved inspite of this.

Btw...I'm really glad you have conquered all your sin habits and all your choices are perfect now. You are one among...well, none. You are the only one in history to do so. Congratulations! We now know the Bible is wrong...thank you.

Btw #2. We are discussing two topics in this thread now. Maybe a mod should suggest and/or split this thread.
.
.

BavarianWheels wrote:

Montana wrote:I suspect that my query would be better served on a philosophical forum than a Christian forum. While the site is quite valuable with excellent content and articles, it would seem the forums (the community) is rather eclectic and cliquish and not open to assisting others in their path and struggle in faith.

I apologize for upsetting the community with theological and philosophical questions. Perhaps a qualified pastor is the better source to go to.

Interesting...so because we "cannot" answer your query to your satisfaction or that of an atheist, we are deemed eclectic and cliquish and not open to assisting. 5 pages + and we aren't open to assisting. Which part of THIS query is a struggle in your path? Didn't you say you understand this but cannot explain it to atheists TO THEIR satisfaction? Somehow me thinks the closed mind is more you than we OR the atheist.
.
.

No, because I'm looking for a Christian forum with Christians who behave like Christians, and instead I found too many hostile, un-Christlike posters here, it's probably for the best that I find a community more to my liking. You for example, can do absolutely nothing but through insults and personal attacks and question my intent and my faith. You mock a Christian for struggling and their admittance of doing so. All because you think I am an atheist (which is absurd).

If I am an atheist, the most you've succeeded in doing with your hostility would be driving off someone with questions and seeking help.
If I am a Christian however, well...you've treated a fellow brother in Christ with contempt, mockery, hostility and disrespect, and driven off an earnest seeker.

Your behavior results in negatively impacting not only your target, but those who would see this thread (and perhaps not register), and see the conduct and hostility from an alleged Christian. It's a horrible example of Christianity...and is what I believe is far more damaging to the faith than the behavior of non-Christians (since Christians are the representatives of Christ). IMO, it is people like you, that cause Christians to have to defend their faith to others (for they are constantly having to defend the actions/behaviors of fellow (or alleged) Christians as being non-representative).

You chose to never answer any pressing questions and instead go on a personal crusade against seekers. That kind of treatment can be found in any atheist community. I expected a much higher standard from a Christian community.

Like I said, I am looking for an community of actual Christians who behave like Christians according to Christ.

Montana wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:

Montana wrote:I suspect that my query would be better served on a philosophical forum than a Christian forum. While the site is quite valuable with excellent content and articles, it would seem the forums (the community) is rather eclectic and cliquish and not open to assisting others in their path and struggle in faith.

I apologize for upsetting the community with theological and philosophical questions. Perhaps a qualified pastor is the better source to go to.

Interesting...so because we "cannot" answer your query to your satisfaction or that of an atheist, we are deemed eclectic and cliquish and not open to assisting. 5 pages + and we aren't open to assisting. Which part of THIS query is a struggle in your path? Didn't you say you understand this but cannot explain it to atheists TO THEIR satisfaction? Somehow me thinks the closed mind is more you than we OR the atheist.
.
.

No, because I'm looking for a Christian forum with Christians who behave like Christians, and instead I found too many hostile, un-Christlike posters here, it's probably for the best that I find a community more to my liking. You for example, can do absolutely nothing but through insults and personal attacks and question my intent and my faith. You mock a Christian for struggling and their admittance of doing so. All because you think I am an atheist (which is absurd).

If I am an atheist, the most you've succeeded in doing with your hostility would be driving off someone with questions and seeking help.
If I am a Christian however, well...you've treated a fellow brother in Christ with contempt, mockery, hostility and disrespect, and driven off an earnest seeker.

Your behavior results in negatively impacting not only your target, but those who would see this thread (and perhaps not register), and see the conduct and hostility from an alleged Christian. It's a horrible example of Christianity...and is what I believe is far more damaging to the faith than the behavior of non-Christians (since Christians are the representatives of Christ). IMO, it is people like you, that cause Christians to have to defend their faith to others (for they are constantly having to defend the actions/behaviors of fellow (or alleged) Christians as being non-representative).

You chose to never answer any pressing questions and instead go on a personal crusade against seekers. That kind of treatment can be found in any atheist community. I expected a much higher standard from a Christian community.

Like I said, I am looking for an community of actual Christians who behave like Christians according to Christ.

My father always told me; "If you don't like the fruit, don't shake the tree"

Isn't it you that came in with a topic that from post one is HOT? You have not been treated unfairly. I think we have all tried to answer your query to the best of our ability and IMHO answered it almost to death. The fact of the matter is, the killing of any sinner, at any moment, by God's direct hand, by God's direction by some other means, or a delayed killing is ALWAYS right at ANY point in time. The kicker here is God. It is not up to us when, where, and who to judge. Death is the wage. Apart from a direct command to do so in TODAY's age, is to act alone.

You don't like the answer and so you stomp off? Who's angry here and for what? You claim to have never had an issue here until an Atheist asked...where is the issue without the Atheist? I think you know the answer, but can't swallow another questioning your belief and you feel threatened. Your anger is better served pointed at the one putting doubt in your head...not at us trying to help YOU.
.
.

Montana, that's a ridiculous diatribe. I myself spent a lot of time trying to answer you (even though I should've been doing something else job-search related), out of love for Christ and trying to help others, and as far as I can tell, you simply didn't like the answers. From what I also surmise, you have not been honest with us. That's my opinion - I'm not stating the board's opinion. You came on like a damsel in distress, and slowly turned into some kind of logician trying to get an answer to something that does not have the question posed. If you wanted a philosophical debate, you simply should have laid out your proposition(s) clearly to begin with. It makes it look backhanded, like you were trying to get someone to trip themselves up. You disagree with fellow Christians who say they are not relativists when it comes to God's morality.

cslewislover wrote:Montana, that's a ridiculous diatribe. I myself spent a lot of time trying to answer you (even though I should've been doing something else job-search related), out of love for Christ and trying to help others, and as far as I can tell, you simply didn't like the answers. From what I also surmise, you have not been honest with us. That's my opinion - I'm not stating the board's opinion. You came on like a damsel in distress, and slowly turned into some kind of logician trying to get an answer to something that does not have the question posed. If you wanted a philosophical debate, you simply should have laid out your proposition(s) clearly to begin with. It makes it look backhanded, like you were trying to get someone to trip themselves up. You disagree with fellow Christians who say they are not relativists when it comes to God's morality.

.
.

Well I disagree with that.. That's a double standard on the grounds that genetics have a play in someone's choice. Then technically it isn't a choice, it's how the person is wired. Now you could argue that a homosexual has formed a sin habit, just like any other habit, but habits can be broken. Nonetheless, it still boils down to choice. And for the record, I've had many sin habits, but I've chosen to break them all..

"If homosexuality is not chosen, but actually is a biologically-determined characteristic over which we have no choice, then laws should not treat gays and straights differently, since homosexuality would be equivalent to one's race, over which we have no control." -Rich Deem

Laws already treat people differently because of race. That is true all over the world, including here in the US. Is Rich talking about God's law, or human laws? There are all kind of mess ups in the genetic code. Defects, mental illness, etc. Many of which we've yet to discover. Even if HS were determined to be genetic, is doesn't mean that their actions should be approved or considered normal. In fact the opposite case could be made. Even though alcohlism is considered to have genetic links, we don't allow alcoholics less penalty when they drink and drive. They still made a choice. In fact we don't 'accept' a person's genetic disposition to alcholism. We condemn it, and try to change it. We consider such things a defect. So homosexuality can be a genetic defect, and the behaviors resulting from it can still be condemnable. Why? EVERYONE is tempted in some way or another. It will happen to EVERYONE. So, since this could be considerd 'normal,' should we just simply state that giving in to our natural desires is hunky doory? Of course not. It is 'natural' for us to want things. In fact sometimes we want things that don't belong to us. So, based on Rich's logic, shouldn't we be allowed to steal if it is natural to desire things? Of course not. Rich wouldn't agree with that. We all know that we are not to give in to every desire that we have. That is what makes us human. Obviously we are talking specifically about sexual desire here. You will not find an active homosexual who didn't deal with these desires as a young person. They knew they had these desires. I'd say their conscience also condemned them as well. But, like so many of us, they didn't resist. They fed them. The desire grew. Then they start feeding that desire. Then they start feeding their own need to justify the fact that they violated their own conscience. It's no different with the adulterer. The adulterer started with a tiny seed of desire. He fed it, instead of holding it captive. He didn't just 'choose' to be an adulterer. You could probably track his sin back to something many would consider, 'harmless.' But the reason he committed adultery is because he felt 'justified,' in his own mind. And you are going to have a hard time finding an active homosexual who feels differently.

Is Homosexuality genetic? We simply don't know. However, would someone in their right mind choose to be that way? Did you choose to be Heterosexual? I didn't. There was never a time in my life where I chose what sex to be attracted to. I have suspicions that in some cases people are born with the disposition to homosexuality. I also believe that most cases are due to childhood trauma, (mental and physical) which manifest itself in confused sexuality. Either way, that person is dealing with issues that transcend simple choice. There is no doubt that homosexuality is abnormal. That is a fact. It is not normal, no matter how much our culture wants to normalize it. It is a defect. And I don't mean that to sound cruel. But it is either a genetic defect, or a behavioral defect. If it is a defect, then it should be treated as such. But that is not what the gay community wants. They want it to be labeled normal. If we were able to address it as a defect, then perhaps we could better treat people earlier in life and actually see better results. Who knows. No question, as this discussion shows, it's a complex issue to which we are still searching for answers.

Gman,
You've broken ALL your sin habits? That's a bold statement.

Like I said, I am looking for an community of actual Christians who behave like Christians according to Christ.

Dear Lord, save us from your followers.

Gman,
You've broken ALL your sin habits? That's a bold statement.

Jlay, where does Gman say this? I find it hard to believe he wrote that. I didn't see it with a quick look at all the posts, but maybe I missed it. I think it's possible for someone to believe they broke sin habits, as opposed to sinning sometimes.

cslewislover wrote:

Gman,
You've broken ALL your sin habits? That's a bold statement.

Jlay, where does Gman say this? I find it hard to believe he wrote that. I didn't see it with a quick look at all the posts, but maybe I missed it. I think it's possible for someone to believe they broke sin habits, as opposed to sinning sometimes.

Right here:

Gman wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:Totally correct. I have not argued that homosexual acts are not of choice. THE ACTS are of choice, however IF sin has corrupted humanity down to genetic gender affections (as I *think* it has), then there is no CHOICE in chooseing WHO those acts are acted out with. There is no chance for me, as a heterosexual, to ever have thoughts of engaging in homosexual acts with another male. It's utterly repulsive to me.

Well I disagree with that.. That's a double standard on the grounds that genetics have a play in someone's choice. Then technically it isn't a choice, it's how the person is wired. Now you could argue that a homosexual has formed a sin habit, just like any other habit, but habits can be broken. Nonetheless, it still boils down to choice. And for the record, I've had many sin habits, but I've chosen to break them all..

"If homosexuality is not chosen, but actually is a biologically-determined characteristic over which we have no choice, then laws should not treat gays and straights differently, since homosexuality would be equivalent to one's race, over which we have no control." -Rich Deem

Source: http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/ ... ality.html

Gabrielman wrote:

cslewislover wrote:

Gman,
You've broken ALL your sin habits? That's a bold statement.

Jlay, where does Gman say this? I find it hard to believe he wrote that. I didn't see it with a quick look at all the posts, but maybe I missed it. I think it's possible for someone to believe they broke sin habits, as opposed to sinning sometimes.

Right here:

Gman wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:Totally correct. I have not argued that homosexual acts are not of choice. THE ACTS are of choice, however IF sin has corrupted humanity down to genetic gender affections (as I *think* it has), then there is no CHOICE in chooseing WHO those acts are acted out with. There is no chance for me, as a heterosexual, to ever have thoughts of engaging in homosexual acts with another male. It's utterly repulsive to me.

Well I disagree with that.. That's a double standard on the grounds that genetics have a play in someone's choice. Then technically it isn't a choice, it's how the person is wired. Now you could argue that a homosexual has formed a sin habit, just like any other habit, but habits can be broken. Nonetheless, it still boils down to choice. And for the record, I've had many sin habits, but I've chosen to break them all..

"If homosexuality is not chosen, but actually is a biologically-determined characteristic over which we have no choice, then laws should not treat gays and straights differently, since homosexuality would be equivalent to one's race, over which we have no control." -Rich Deem

Source: http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/ ... ality.html

Ok, thanks! Gman can respond more if you wants to.

Just to clarify some of what I wrote before. We all sin sometimes, in a weak moment or whatever. I didn't mean that if we have what we consider a bad habit, and we do it once a month instead of once a week, that it's not a habit anymore. Something along those lines. I need some more coffee.

jlay wrote:

Well I disagree with that.. That's a double standard on the grounds that genetics have a play in someone's choice. Then technically it isn't a choice, it's how the person is wired. Now you could argue that a homosexual has formed a sin habit, just like any other habit, but habits can be broken. Nonetheless, it still boils down to choice. And for the record, I've had many sin habits, but I've chosen to break them all..

"If homosexuality is not chosen, but actually is a biologically-determined characteristic over which we have no choice, then laws should not treat gays and straights differently, since homosexuality would be equivalent to one's race, over which we have no control." -Rich Deem

Laws already treat people differently because of race. That is true all over the world, including here in the US. Is Rich talking about God's law, or human laws? There are all kind of mess ups in the genetic code. Defects, mental illness, etc. Many of which we've yet to discover. Even if HS were determined to be genetic, is doesn't mean that their actions should be approved or considered normal. In fact the opposite case could be made. Even though alcohlism is considered to have genetic links, we don't allow alcoholics less penalty when they drink and drive. They still made a choice. In fact we don't 'accept' a person's genetic disposition to alcholism. We condemn it, and try to change it. We consider such things a defect. So homosexuality can be a genetic defect, and the behaviors resulting from it can still be condemnable. Why? EVERYONE is tempted in some way or another. It will happen to EVERYONE. So, since this could be considerd 'normal,' should we just simply state that giving in to our natural desires is hunky doory? Of course not. It is 'natural' for us to want things. In fact sometimes we want things that don't belong to us. So, based on Rich's logic, shouldn't we be allowed to steal if it is natural to desire things? Of course not. Rich wouldn't agree with that. We all know that we are not to give in to every desire that we have. That is what makes us human. Obviously we are talking specifically about sexual desire here. You will not find an active homosexual who didn't deal with these desires as a young person. They knew they had these desires. I'd say their conscience also condemned them as well. But, like so many of us, they didn't resist. They fed them. The desire grew. Then they start feeding that desire. Then they start feeding their own need to justify the fact that they violated their own conscience. It's no different with the adulterer. The adulterer started with a tiny seed of desire. He fed it, instead of holding it captive. He didn't just 'choose' to be an adulterer. You could probably track his sin back to something many would consider, 'harmless.' But the reason he committed adultery is because he felt 'justified,' in his own mind. And you are going to have a hard time finding an active homosexual who feels differently.

Is Homosexuality genetic? We simply don't know. However, would someone in their right mind choose to be that way? Did you choose to be Heterosexual? I didn't. There was never a time in my life where I chose what sex to be attracted to. I have suspicions that in some cases people are born with the disposition to homosexuality. I also believe that most cases are due to childhood trauma, (mental and physical) which manifest itself in confused sexuality. Either way, that person is dealing with issues that transcend simple choice. There is no doubt that homosexuality is abnormal. That is a fact. It is not normal, no matter how much our culture wants to normalize it. It is a defect. And I don't mean that to sound cruel. But it is either a genetic defect, or a behavioral defect. If it is a defect, then it should be treated as such. But that is not what the gay community wants. They want it to be labeled normal. If we were able to address it as a defect, then perhaps we could better treat people earlier in life and actually see better results. Who knows. No question, as this discussion shows, it's a complex issue to which we are still searching for answers.

I think jlay has hit some good points. It seems I would agree with just about everything here, however I still reserve the right to explain my stance should there be question. <grin>

Mental and physical childhood trauma. Confused sexuality. I totally agree here and would say this falls in line with the thought that homosexuality (HS...thank you jlay) could very well be a genetic defect stemming from sin. Either way, the person is still in a personal quandary knowing he/she is different from the "norm".

Jlay is right when he (he?) mentions that the gay community wants it to be labeled as normal. I agree with this being their want. But whose to blame them if it is "normal" to them? To us "normal" folk, to lust is normal, to desire is normal...and as jlay mentions also, it's normal that sometimes we act on those desires. Does it make a difference that lust manifesting itself in perverted sex acts between man and woman is a "normal" sex act?

Once again the question arises in my mind. Why is it not possible to BE HS and BE a Christian at the same time? It's possible to BE a sinner and BE Christian, isn't it? It's also possible to ACT on weaknesses (fall) as a hetero and still be saved...right?

jlay wrote:Gman,
You've broken ALL your sin habits? That's a bold statement.

Right?!
.
.

Yeah. That one site Gman gave before, I think - is it Exodus International? That would be good to check out to see what some of them have said, what their experiences are in this regard. That is, it seeming normal to them before, but now it doesn't, or they realize their feelings were false or whatever. Obviously there are a lot of gays who don't post at Exodus, but it would be a good sample of that sort, I think.

BavarianWheels wrote:Disagree. No problem. However it is not a double standard. Do you CHOOSE who you find attractive or is it genetic in that you are male?

Formed a sin habit...excellent. So the children that are feminine in nature from a very early age have chosen homosexuality while never understanding the difference?

Just because you quote Rich Deem, doesn't make that position THE correct position. I can't prove genetic homosexuality and you can't prove it's 100% choice. Whether I am right or not really makes no difference at all. If homosexuality is a choice struggle, then it's no different than any other sinful act of choice that we all struggle with and YET call ourselves Christian and saved inspite of this.

Ok... Then why did God tell us to abstain from homosexual behavior and other sexual sins? How could someone with a genetic disposition ever accomplish that?

BavarianWheels wrote:Btw...I'm really glad you have conquered all your sin habits and all your choices are perfect now. You are one among...well, none. You are the only one in history to do so. Congratulations! We now know the Bible is wrong...thank you.

Did I ever say I conquered all my sins? I never said I was perfect.. What I'm saying is that you can break the habit if you want. But all sin? I'm sure I might sin again because of what is in my heart.. Not my genetics.

Btw.. You should watch the SDA Hope channel sometime. Last week they had an entire show on victory over sin where they quoted 1 Cor 6:11, Romans 6:12, Romans 6:13-14, etc..

Stop giving people a false hope...

cslewislover wrote:Yeah. That one site Gman gave before, I think - is it Exodus International? That would be good to check out to see what some of them have said, what their experiences are in this regard. That is, it seeming normal to them before, but now it doesn't, or they realize their feelings were false or whatever. Obviously there are a lot of gays who don't post at Exodus, but it would be a good sample of that sort, I think.

Yes.. We have many stories of people that have conquered that urge...

http://www.exodusinternational.org/stories

But unfortunately no one really cares... They think it is genetic and not philosophical.. Therefore homosexuality is an excepted lifestyle..