God's omniscience vs free-will

Are you a sincere seeker who has questions about Christianity, or a Christian with doubts about your faith? Post them here to receive a thoughtful response.
User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8365
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

#106

Post by B. W. » Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:00 pm

Post Three - 7-31-06 — Part Three of Three

Read Post One and Two above

If one holds such a black and white interpretation of Romans Chapter Nine regarding that all forms human agency is impossible for men and women to receive salvation then we need to explore this line of thinking further.

While it is factually true that no human being can choose God's salvation from and of their-own volition, earn it, will it, or work it out on his or her own, God still offers a choice. Since God offers his mercy, it is his offer that saves and not humanity offering something up to God. Without God's offer of mercy, showing it, proving it - none could be saved. Since it is God's offer, this provides a free-choice for individuals and therefore still remains a work of God and not mankind's.

God designed humanity to be rational, thinking, reasoning beings. Doing so, absolves God of being directly responsible for creating sin and imperfections. God's wisdom cleanly displayed! God's display of mercy, his call, and his grace engages human agency to decide own his or her own to accept the offer or reject it.

God is all knowing. This is a concept way beyond mere mortal words to describe. You cannot describe it in a step by step linear fashion. God knows all — Period. He knows how one will answer his call; respond to it, what each will do with his call before any person was ever born. He knows all. From this superior foreknowledge, God can shape, place, and assign people as he sees best.

It remains God's call and not humanities work. What can make this clearer for you? Without God's call, all humanity would remain forever lost and damned with no possibility of choosing God or attaining salvation in any shape or form. However, God did and does call and show mercy and this now logically provides what? A Choice!

Yes, a divine choice that makes human beings absolutely responsible for their sins and not God. A heavenly option provided by God that proves his very nature and character that He is just, merciful, loving, kind, righteous, all wise, all powerful, all knowing, completely sovereign as he controls all things with equity, justice, and judgment that is way beyond what our mortal minds can fully and adequately comprehend, [Bible]Job 34:10-15. [/Bible]

This choice is demonstrate throughout the bible and the scripture evidence for it is overwhelming. Here are just a few, [Bible]Deuteronomy 11:26-28[/Bible] option of obeying, [Bible]Deuteronomy 13:18[/Bible] we have responsibility in to listen, [Bible]Deuteronomy 6:22-33[/Bible] we can hear his voice and live. [Bible]Job 34:11 [/Bible], [Bible]Psalms 62:12[/Bible] God repays man in accordance to his work. God test the heart and is just [Bible]Psalms 7:9-11[/Bible], Works of the wicked are of their own hand [Bible]Psalms 9:16[/Bible]. From this we can see that God offers options. If he offers, what are we to do but answer?

Again [Bible]Psalms 9:10[/Bible], [Bible] Isaiah 55:3[/Bible] and verse 7, [Bible] Jeremiah 17:7[/Bible] state for us to trust the Lord. How can we if God does not engage our minds with his mercy? [Bible]Isaiah 1:18[/Bible] God calls us to reason with him, why would God say this if he did not first call out to engage us and tell us to choose whom we will serve in love as a son does a loving father?

[Bible]John 3:16[/Bible] tells us to believe in Christ. How can we if were never given that option; that option that engages us. Without this call of God, all humanity would remain lost. God would even have been unjust to create all humanity just to remain lost and damned. This is contrary to who God is. He is fair, righteous, and all his ways are perfect. He shows this by calling to all humanity with such grace that on one hand saves one soul and next can damn another due solely to his option he provided mankind with. Choose.

He knows the answers of each person before we all were ever born but still God ask and thus proving what about God? He Foreknows all things and shapes and places people in the scheme, time, and places throughout the history of humanity. Such knowledge is too wonderful to fully comprehend! Glory to God that He is and is a rewarder of those that diligently seek him!

You see, it remains God's call that saves and not mans acts. He shows a foreknown mercy, compassion, and even hardening based on His calling out to humanity which produces a choice for us, without this choice, none could become born again. This is what I have pointing out: Jesus Christ our true doctrine - You can get to know him in a personal relationship that changes everything!

Onward:

Romans chapter nine tells us the same thing. If not, then it is denying the rest of the bible that speaks of the call, option, choices God imposes upon mankind.

Now, the way that many interpret Romans Chapter Nine, deny God's calls, and option given to humanity. While they factually state that no human being can choose God's salvation from their-own volition, earn it, will it, or work it out on his or her own, they deny that God can ever offer a choice because in their mind this becomes a human work, will, runnething of human agency.

If this then is truly the case, you need to interpret Romans Chapter Nine in strict black and white terms and equally apply it to all scripture. Therefore, God just selects and elects. If God just selects and elects based on the fact that God is Sovereign and can do whatever he pleases, then why did Jesus come into the world and do the work of mercy he did? Why bother with the call?

If you state that only for the elects sake God calls, you may be philosophically correct but theologically misled. To just call the elect out is weak as there is in reality no way that even the elect could possibly know or discern they were of the elect. All such knowing and discerning is of human agency and cannot be trusted even if it is claimed it came from God. How can this be so?

All hearing, bible illumination is interpreted within the mind of a human agent and thus cannot be trusted. Bible reading cannot be trusted due to being part of the human psyche of comprehending. How can one really and truly spiritual discern anything at all — since the heart of humanity is desperately wicked and deceitful? After all it is written, not of him who wills or runs or works but God who shows mercy. After all, all human agency comes under the realm of self will, sin, and deception.

If one is born again by God's selection in this black and white manner, then would not all feelings, interpretation of scripture, preaching, and sense of forced grace be part of human agency? You reason within your mind, you hear, understand and in doing so you willeth, runneth, and worketh. Human agency is brought into play and thus you could never know you were born again due to sin nature's free will to sin.

Only God's election stands. There would be no logical reason for Jesus to have come and pour out his spirit as God selects: Black and white — no middle ground. If no human agency can ever absolutely be a part of salvation, then there is no possible way for the elect to be assured of their salvation. God could only reveal this on judgment day.

The great commission would become a farce as God just elects. You are damned if you obey God or not. Maybe you are saved and maybe you are not. There would be no way of knowing you were saved or not until judgment day.

This is where this style of thinking ultimately leads: On solid Rock hard Doctrine I stand, all other is sinking sand. There is no Christ only doctrine that points out clearly how man damns other men with judgment: I stand on doctrine alone! I am the elect! I and I and I is repeated thus proving that self will was never slain within themselves as they claim it had been in them!

On the other hand, since God designed humanity to think and reason independently, which absolves God of creating sin, He offers a choice. Since God offers a choice, humanity can now choose because God offered it. Thus the great commission, Christ's work on the cross, and the fullness of God's indwelling Spirit can be known and experienced as real certainties.

Thus, your faith will grow and others will see and seek rest under the shade of your tree.

Yes, Jesus the tree of life!
-
-
-

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8365
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

#107

Post by B. W. » Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:59 pm

madscientist wrote:
B. W. wrote:Post Two - 7-31-06 – Read Post one Above

We are responsible for how we hear. God already knows the answer but we do not. If a person God foresaw rejecting his call, he can make them a Pharaoh or an Esau along as in doing so has a divine purpose like the bible proves. Both Esau and Pharaoh served higher purposes as I mentioned in my prior writings. Pharaoh and Esau rejected God’s call. Isaiah 55:7


-
Yes but wouldnt this be different if the person had different personality (something inherited - in genes), different surroundings, people around him, etc? Although this is the only thing that seems to be 100% fair - that God already knows who will sin and who wont, isnt it true that ALL people would do the same in the same situation?
Eg with Adam and Eve - what if Adam and Eve had different souls - those of different people, would they sin? If everything was exactly the same, surroundings, same brains, etc but the souls of people were different would they sin? If yes then theres no free will, if no then there is free will. But... are not all souls equal in way of thinkong etc, completely free? What if I were Adam or Eve? Would I sin? I would have a choice, but would I sin? Is there a definite question to that? (Assuming everything would remain the same, including how id look like etc) but all that would be different would be that I would be one of them (not mentuoning who writes this reply but everyone asking themselves). Are all souls identical in ways of thinking etc or not? BTW another question that bothers me a lot. (Relates to "Not evryone has same opportunity to do good/evil" which is also 1 of my posts). Helpful if someone cud help on ths pls...
Or is it more or less random - you can be lucky to do evil/good, eg if the situation was repeated again, with Adam and Eve having the same souls - being the same people etc, and everything were the same they wouldnt necessarily have to do sin?
What seems UNFAIR - that only two people were given the choice to be first sinners etc. AND, MOST PROBABLY, many people would have sinned, given the opportunity, but the fact they have never been given the opportunity to be Adam or Eve, we dont consider them as potentially evil, simply because of not been given the opportunity to do such big sins. Or people like Hitler Stalin etc - we say they were extremely evil because they were given the opportunity to be so. Havent they been gven the opportiunuty from God (or ppl surroundign them eg theyd be shot at age of 3) they wouldnt be evil? That is just UNFAIR! Just realize how many people WOULD be so evil or even more, if given the opportunity - but since they are not they dont do the sins. FAir? NO!!!
So is this way of approach actually correct?
Please read all the post. Fact is, when we look in the mirror we can see that we exist. Why are we here on this planet?

God created us to be in union of fellowship with him and to reflect his image as the means to govern our affairs on this earth. This means to do justly, show mercy, walk humbly with our God.

What Adam and Eve both saw was a shot at their own dominion exalted over God's. They chose it and it affected everything. In this God reveals his nature, he is sovereign, all powerful, all knowing, all wise, merciful, just, righteous, as he allows each to reason and think on ones own. Love is like that — lets you learn on your own.

Was this fair? I would answer yes as it proves God is God. We seek dominion, even over God by saying things should have been done our way or this or that. What would be truly and absolutely unfair would be that Jesus Christ would have never come to set things right. Thank the Lord Jesus that he came! In this God proves he is worthy of our service.

Whom the son sets free is free indeed. Relationship restored back with God — now that is fair! To remain as we are — left on our own would not. To deny humanity existence would mean God is not all powerful; however, God changing humanity in a right and fair way proves his sovereignty is supreme. In this we need to turn away from sin and join back with the Lord through the new birth as bible proclaims.

This is a hard pill to swallow as we do not want to give up our dominion. I will not give you a cute story why this is so. It happened. God test the heart. He calls and proves he is in the business to restore us back into a right relationship with him that reflect his true nature and character back into humanity.

He make the rain fall on the just and unjust. He is fair. He takes a long time before issuing forth punishment. For many that is as a short mortal lifespan till it is realized how far one has fallen. Do not blame God any longer. Seek to know him. Become born again.

As for this ideology - that person not having mental capacity or ability due to age or disability to be damned and punished forever does not line up with scripture. While it is true that everyone, even a baby is not born innocent and will grow up and sin, God does show mercy to the little ones and those not of full mental capacity.

He said so himself as recorded in Matthew 18:2-6. Why? There are some people that have and cannot reach an age of maturity or full moral cognitive reasoning as you and I have. Children are not adult in their reasoning. Do not forbid such to enter the kingdom of God. If one does, it would have been better for him to eternally experience drowning in the sea.

If God damns such little minded ones that do not have a developed moral mental capacity, or ability, due to age, or disability, then God would have to toss Himself into the sea and eternally experience drowning in a sea. Again, what this actual age is and when one is held accountable for their actions is omni-personal as each person reaches and passes that moral age at certain times: while others cannot. God is more just and wise than we credit him for. Those of such mind and age are a minority. You and I are not. You and I can reason and think and thus are held accountable for our actions and deeds.

We must become like little children and be born again to enter the kingdom of God is a profound truth. Do not neglect it any longer.

God is fair but are you fair with God?

My friend it is not too late to return to God. Return! Please return to the Lord and learn that His mercies are true every morning for eternity. How? Just Ask…
-
-
-

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8365
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

#108

Post by B. W. » Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:55 am

Part Four — Conclusions and Investigations — August 2, 2006.

See Parts One through Three Above

Reader Note: You'll need to read Part Three of Three before reading this, please do in order to gain a better understanding of what is being said here and not take statement out of context. God Bless!

Begin

John 6:44, “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” KJV

Does God draw people based solely upon His predetermination or based upon foreknowing? Even when the bible boldly proclaims that whom God foreknows, he predestines and whom he predestines he calls in Romans 8:29, as well as 1 Peter 1:2 statement that declares 'elect according to the foreknowledge of God' many adhere to an interpretation that God draws, elects, solely by predetermination first and foremost.

Everything, according to a predetermination world view is caused by God. He made you sneeze, had you run over your pet cat, God broke your arm; God assigns people to be wicked, and others to become saints. The list goes on and on.

Many adherents of this view teach that God hardens hearts because he predetermines who should and who should not have a hard heart without thought of God's foresight into why God would harden somebody's heart in the first place. It is either black or white to them and so is their gospel as it has no light.

The crux of this argument resides in Romans Chapter Nine statement that it is not of human will, works, or running that saves but only upon God's predetermination on who he wills to shows mercy, compassion, or harden. At first glance this seems logical but to apply its logic to where it leads, ends up negating the reason for the gospel and Christ's work on the cross.

This interpretation denies all scriptures that state otherwise and verses that prove God offers a choice to humanity that holds them accountable for how they hear, understand, and respond. Thus, confirming that God does not damn a soul because he predetermine it but rather that the soul that hates God, God also hates. He loves those that love him and hates those that hate him. Sin is the creatures own doing and not God's.

While it is an absolute fact that no human being can will, run, work, or earn their salvation own his or her own, God's call belongs to God alone and it is his call that creates a choice for human beings to accept or reject. Without this, none could receive or reject the gospel message.

Yes, God is in control but how he controls is based upon his superior foreknowing and not only on predetermination. If God controls and elects based only upon God's predetermination then God cannot control all things, all ways, and in all circumstances. Therefore, God governs by his foreknowledge which guides how he predestines, just as the bible states.

Many people would like to imply that this portion of scripture in John 6:44 proves that God elects solely upon His sovereign predetermination based on their interpretation of Romans Chapter Nine. In simple essence, they state in black and white terms that - “No man can come to Jesus Christ, except by God drawing a selected person — thus elects them.”

That is a nice analogy and holds philosophical truth but again it misleads one theologically to support something the bible does not actually teach. Again, if God draws a person based on Romans Chapter Nine's point that no one that wills, works, runs can be saved as it is God that draws him takes the message out of the cross as there would be no need for Jesus' work, which is an absurdity as God just draws.

According to this world view, it is either black or white. It has to one way or the other. If God just draws, the conclusion is why did Jesus have too come? We go back to that. There is nothing anyone can do than just wait and hope that God draws them. No assurance is possible despite the fact that the bible claims you can have that assurance.

If this were the case; when and if God does draw you, how can you be sure he is or has? After all, all feelings, intellectual ascent, believing, faith, bible reading, preaching, etc is an activity of human will, works, and running. Therefore, God just draws — just hope you are the pick of God's election boys and girls. You cannot trust you are being drawn by God, as that is an act of human will, works, and running.

The problem with using John 6:44 as a proof text to prove God just predetermines with no thought on choosing whomever for whatever reason, and damns and saves based on God's predetermination alone denies what the Greek word 'draw' means in the cited passage. This line of thinking also neglects the context the next few verses which follow that clarify and back up what this word means without controversy.

John 6:45, “It is written in the prophets, and they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.” KJV

Interesting, it goes back to the human agency of hearing and learning something about God through what they hear. In verse 44 the Greek work translated 'draw' means literally to draw by an inward power, to be led, encouraged, pleaded with, shown to come not by force but rather by an internally effective process though all means of rational conviction. Guess what? This indeed lines up with what John 16:7-15 teaches. Do you hear?

Thus, they shall be taught by God by hearing and learning from God something. Yes, this goes back to God showing mercy, calling, pleading, preparing the clay for the wheel, or you can say God's pleading to all so all will respond in someway to God's pleadings. Proving what about God? He is truly perfect in all his ways, Psalms 11:5, Psalms 12:6-7.

God in Old Testament times used prophets to plead his case and draw people back to himself; he did so with Nineveh in Jonah's time. God gives the option of obeying or rejecting his message, his call, his mercy. In other words, do you believe or not what God is showing and teaching? God changes not.

The message of Psalms 78 concurs with this too. Note verse 41 and all the times the people would not believe despite all the times God reveals himself. Did he cause them to sin just to leave us an objective lesson? Answer is No as this would cause God to violate his own nature — Job 34:10-17.

God pleaded and shown his mercy unfettered to them. Their hearts were hard by sin not God. They chose to rebel and God honored this choice. Hebrews 3:7-15 states that they harden their own hearts as does Psalms 95:7-8. In this God leaves us an objective lesson not to act like they and rebel as it leads to death.

“Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts…” Hebrews 3:7-8. Notice it states, “Today, if you hear…” and not “Today, if God predetermines …” It is of this nature and type of drawing is how God draws. He seeks those he foreknew would hear at the time, date, place in the ongoing today's of tomorrow. He is pleading, calling, showing mercy and then we have a choice given by God to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and all that He has done. Some will hear God's call and return, some will not and reject his call as all is foreknown by God.

When God does harden someone's heart it is because he foreknows they'll never accept the mercy that he shows as he did with Pharaoh. Those that love God learn to depart from iniquity as Jacob learned and those that God hates choose iniquity as Esau did. Be like Jacob and receive a new name from God: A new character and new nature! Do not be like Esau.

Now back to the book of John.

John 6:46-47, “Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.” KJV

This leads us back to Romans Chapter 10, which by the way comes after Chapter Nine in context demonstrating Paul's main points brought in Romans Eight and Nine concerning topic under discussion.

Romans 10:8-10 “But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” KJV

Rom 10:10 12, “For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.” KJV

Rom 10:13-15, “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!” KJV

Rom 10:16-18, “But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.” KJV

Conclusion

We go back to God offering a choice to believe in Him or not. That is how God draws people to Christ. He engages their reason as it is written, Isaiah 1:18, “Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.” KJV

He draws by teaching and instructing people about his mercy and grace, and offers to all a choice to choose this day whom they'll serve. Confession is a human agency. Faith is a gift from God that proves God's grace is mercifully drawing and calling. What will be your confession of life? God asks even when he already knows the answer! Wow! What an awesome God proving all that he is true! God is absolutely worthy of praise!

Thus, the great Commission takes on new meaning, Matthew 28:18-20 and Luke 24:46-47.

We are truly the light of the world:

Matthew 5:13-16, "You are like salt for the whole human race. But if salt loses its saltiness, there is no way to make it salty again. It has become worthless, so it is thrown out and people trample on it. "You are like light for the whole world. A city built on a hill cannot be hid. No one lights a lamp and puts it under a bowl; instead it is put on the lamp stand, where it gives light for everyone in the house. In the same way your light must shine before people, so that they will see the good things you do and praise your Father in heaven.” GNB

What's your answer? Shine Calvin? Wesley? Armenianism? Or Shine — teach instruct others of Christ by your life, conduct, and words?

What is your answer — your confession?
-
-
-

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8365
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

#109

Post by B. W. » Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:35 pm

-
-
Hello all!

I will be on a short trip to Glacier National Park and will be back to finish up a few more comments - Lord willing and the creek don't rise!

I have a little more to write in response to PL's postings.

God bless you all!
-
-
-

Kerux
Established Member
Posts: 112
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:57 pm
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#110

Post by Kerux » Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:47 pm

Take your time. It will take quite some time for us to read and study the posts you've made already.

Do you really expect others to read all that?
******************************

Of course, I believe my views to be true.
If I didn't, I would change my views.

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8365
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

#111

Post by B. W. » Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:02 pm

Kerux wrote:Take your time. It will take quite some time for us to read and study the posts you've made already.

Do you really expect others to read all that?

I am back from the trip up North. Due to a forest fire near Glacier National Park, we spent most of time in Waterton Canada. Canada is a beautiful country with the best pristine National Parks I've seen! Only thing is to watch out for bears and you'll be fine :D

One thing I need to ask our Canadian friends - do the Royal Mounted Police officers ever smile?

Anyways, back to topic - Yes, others have read all this thread but if one does not want too, then they do not have too :lol:

I'll wait and see if any questions arise and add more soon - shorter frames!
-
-
-

User avatar
bizzt
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1654
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:11 pm
Christian: No
Location: Calgary
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#112

Post by bizzt » Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:05 am

B. W. wrote:
Kerux wrote:Take your time. It will take quite some time for us to read and study the posts you've made already.

Do you really expect others to read all that?

I am back from the trip up North. Due to a forest fire near Glacier National Park, we spent most of time in Waterton Canada. Canada is a beautiful country with the best pristine National Parks I've seen! Only thing is to watch out for bears and you'll be fine :D

One thing I need to ask our Canadian friends - do the Royal Mounted Police officers ever smile?

Anyways, back to topic - Yes, others have read all this thread but if one does not want too, then they do not have too :lol:

I'll wait and see if any questions arise and add more soon - shorter frames!
-
-
-
Glad you enjoyed yourself BW. That is Canada's Biggest Attractions is its Beauty. If you go up to Northern BC you will find some parks with Hot Springs Laird Springs is an Example. It is about a 1-2km hike back into the woods and they built some changing rooms but you are in Pond type Hot Spring in the Middle of Nowhere it seems. And again Watch for those Bears :D

Waterton is another just amazing Area and those Canadian Mounted Police do smile but you just have to tell a Good Joke ;)

User avatar
Canuckster1127
Old School
Posts: 5306
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:31 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Tulsa, OK
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 2 times

#113

Post by Canuckster1127 » Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:12 am

Image

The last funny joke to make a mountie smile was in 1937 ...... ;) :lol:
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

//bartsbarometer.com/

Felgar
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1143
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:24 am
Christian: No
Location: Calgary, Canada
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#114

Post by Felgar » Wed Aug 16, 2006 8:47 am

Only the mounties that are actually mounted, as in riding a horse, actually smile. That's because they are mainly just at special events for show, and are probably just happy that they aren't writing traffic tickets all day. :D

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8365
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

#115

Post by B. W. » Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:13 pm

Felgar wrote:Only the mounties that are actually mounted, as in riding a horse, actually smile. That's because they are mainly just at special events for show, and are probably just happy that they aren't writing traffic tickets all day. :D
LOL!!

Anyways - we are planning to trip to BC possibly next summer!

God Bless!

Now - I'll need to get back on topic...
-
-

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8365
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

#116

Post by B. W. » Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:23 pm

+
+
Now I'll sum this up again but I will warn you that this may offend those of Reformed vision and will challenge it with the hopes that the Reformed crowd may wake up and really reform their doctrine:

You have been warned...

Introduction — Review:

In all honesty, how can anyone ever be assured of their salvation as it is written, “Not of him the runs and wills but only God show mercy and that God has mercy and compassion on only whom he wills and hardens whom he wills?” Romans 9:15-16 As taught by those of the reformed tradition.

You cannot trust what you read in the bible as that involves human will to interpret the bible. You cannot say, “I am saved because God made me feel wretched or even that God illuminated that I was elected through the scripture,” as that involves human will to feel and understand that one is saved.

According to Reformed Theology, human choice is a work that deifies man, then how can anyone be assured they have been elected? Man is totally and absolutely a passive agent because God has mercy and compassion on only whom he wills and hardens whom he wills.

The best you can do is just hope that you are the elect. There would be no way to confirm you were of the elect as all such confirmations involve human agency's will. Any such confirmation deifies human will and thus cannot be trusted.

Since Jesus work on the cross is limited only to the elect, the elect have no way to know if they are really saved. They cannot rely on any human agency. If One says they rely on God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit to save — then that very act of reliance is still part of human self will and therefore of human effort.

If God forces grace upon someone, that very sense of grace being forced upon someone is still part of human agency of running and willing. Likewise any feelings, perceptions, thoughts confirming ones salvation cannot be trusted as the human heart is desperately wicked and deceitful. Also, the very act of reading the bible, hearing preaching, the ability to understand is all part of the human will and cannot be trusted.

Therefore, those of you entrenched in Reformed Ideology, how do you know you are really saved and are part of God's elect?

More to follow...
-
-
-

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8365
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

#117

Post by B. W. » Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:05 am

-
-
Story

Try this experiment. Walk to any blank wall in your house. Stand in front of it with your nose pressed against it. Do not turn your head but keep you nose against the wall. What do you see? You can only see a small portion of the wall. The entire dimensions of the wall remain invisible to sight. Only a small segment is seen.

There once was a large 30 foot by 30 foot masterpiece painting in a renowned art gallery. Those viewing it were carefully examining it close up with their noses pressed against the paint. Several were arguing amongst themselves over what colors the artist used in this incredible painting.

A man entering the gallery saw the entire painting. It was stunning. He yelled at those arguing over their limited vistas and told them they should step back and see the entire picture. Those with their noses against the walls tuned in unison and scoffed at the man. Then spoke each in turn.

One said, “The colors the artist used consist of only black, white, blues, and greens. I know what it looks like for the colors are before my very eyes imprinted upon the canvas. Any colors any others see must be sacrilege. The artist used only the colors before me to make this splendid painting. That I am are sure of because these grant clarity of author's intent!”

“Not so,” said another, “The colors are only of golds, browns, auburns, and tan that the artist used to create depth…”

Another chimed in, “No! Most definitely not! The color pigments are only of taupe, reds, royal purples, and azure. The entire painting is made up of thus pigments for proper shades and tones...”

They began to argue fiercely amongst each other over what color the painting was made of. The man standing away from the work shouted for them to step back and marvel at the entire masterpiece. One man pondering the paint listened, turned, walked backed from the painting, and gazed at the whole painting. He fell on his knees in amazement and wondrous awe and cried out, “Glory to God how intricate and beautiful is thy work!”

God painted the masterpiece. Many, with noses pressed hard against the wall, argue continuously over what colors God can use, never realizing what they see is only one small segment of all of God's handiwork.

Likewise, if you only focus on certain scriptures that speak of God one way at the exclusion of others your nose is against the wall and you are only seeing only pigments of color and not the whole picture. Now, what will it take for you to understand that God's ability to 'foreknow all' means just that?

More latter...
-
-
-

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8365
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

#118

Post by B. W. » Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:16 pm

One More Time, Step Back, Take a Look:

Here is a paraphrase rendering of Jeremiah 1:5 with the meanings of key Hebrew words added in. This illustrates how deep and vast God's foreknowing is: Jeremiah 1:5, “Before I formed, predestined, you in the womb I knew, already was intimately acquainted with all that you would do, I deeply knew everything about you; therefore, before you were born I sanctified, set you apart, consecrated you for a task, and I ordained, bestow, granted, entrusted, assigned, you a prophet to the nations.”

Wow, God's predestination and selection is totally contingent on God's foreknowing everything! What was the Lord saying to Jeremiah then and now to us too from this passage? Simple, God knew everything about Jeremiah before he ever was. He knows the same about you, me, and us all.

Let me qualify what God knew about Jeremiah before you falsely accuse me of stating that it was because of some intrinsic good in Jeremiah was why God choose Jeremiah or that God was passively waiting for Jeremiah to choose him. I can assure that it was not some intrinsic good God saw nor was God passively waiting either.

This where people err as they argue that God is subject on waiting for man to choose God verses that it is God whom chooses. Both miss the masterpiece. Both fail to see how God can choose and also let man choose. Pet scriptures are pigments of pet peeves. Many can only see the paint pigments of a narrow view of God's masterpiece. Step back and look at it all.

God saw that all have sinned and fallen short of God's Glory, no human agent is righteous, none seek God. Jeremiah was of that class and nature as we all are. Listen to what Jeremiah says and wrote in Jeremiah 1:4, “Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying…” NKJV

Anybody else sees this or is your vision so narrow that the only thing you comprehend is verse five based your own doctrinal interpretation of verse five at the exclusion of verse four? Verse four reveals that God had to intervene, call, speak, to change things. He was intimately acquainted and knew everything about Jeremiah knowing full well Jeremiah would hear, understand, and obey God's call before Jeremiah was ever born. He knows all and everything.

Without God calling, Jeremiah would have remained lost and useless. God chose because he foresees everything. God never stops calling to us through all of life's afflictions. These force a decision upon us to choose whom we will serve. Will it be self? The devil? Ideas? Other gods? Or the Lord of Glory? God truly test the heart and weighs the spirit.

God knew full well and foresaw that Jeremiah would respond and obey. If God did not call, how could Jeremiah respond and be willing? Jeremiah obeyed God's call as God gave Jeremiah His power to do His will. Without God first calling, Jeremiah would have remained lost and damned. With God calling, the Lord engaged what He foresaw about Jeremiah and that was that Jeremiah would obey, willingly, after hearing God's call, not before but after! Isaiah 1:19

Still do not get it? You think it was something in Jeremiah before God's challenging final call is why God chose Jeremiah? It was not. God simply knows what a person will do after one is called too. He knows everything.

Jeremiah 32:17-19, “The great, the mighty God, whose name is Lord of Hosts. You are great in counsel, wisdom, and mighty in work. Your eyes are open on all the ways of the sons of men, to give every one according to his ways and according to the fruit of his doings.” NKJV

Solely based on God's foreknowing everything, God foreknew that this single person, Jeremiah, would obey His call; thus, God set him apart and assigned him a task. Without this call from God, Jeremiah would have remained absolutely lost and unknown. What God foreknows about us all is deeply profound and from this he can shape, mold, predestine ones course in life contingent upon what he foreknows. It remains God work.

God did not subject fallen world of men to futility and damnation, Romans 8:20. He, for his own reasons chose to call to lost humanity in many diverse ways. His callings confront us all with a choice, where before there was none! It is still God's call, his work, not the human agent. All God does is call and engage humanity to reason with Him. This mysterious work absolves God creating sin, and being unjust. God is perfect in all his ways.

God knows who will accept his call and who will not because He knows everything. Why is it so hard for so many to grasp that it is God's callings that make human choice possible so human beings can either be saved or be damned? Without God taking the time to call, give us his eternal word, Jesus Christ, God would not be showing, proving, mercy on whom he wills. All that would be left to do is to harden and damn unjustly.

You should know that God displays his mercy everyday to everyone as that is his will. His mercies are new every morning, He makes the rain fall on the just and unjust, He is slow to anger and abounds in mercy the bible declares. However, not everyone will accept his mercy and instead reject it. God knows all things, Romans 1:19.
-
-
-

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8365
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

#119

Post by B. W. » Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:05 pm

Points to Consider-Again:

"God has mercy on whom he wills..." Romans 9:18

The moment a person is born; God shows mercy because that is his will. How that person responds to it is up to that person. This where many people err, they do not comprehend God's mercy as new every morning. They find it difficult that God delights not in the death of the wicked, and that the Lord is slow to anger, willingly, not wanting any to perish but all to come to the knowledge of repentance 2 Peter 3:9.

This does not mean that everyone will be saved but rather that they are brought to an understanding of repentance. If they reject returning to God, God will reject them. In mercy, God lets people afflict themselves in their personal pursuits of dominion. The trial and tribulations of living this mortal life God uses brings people to the point of repentance: returning to God's rule — his kingdom, forsaking sins, etc.

This mysteriously builds faith in the Lord. Abraham was one such who exercised saving faith. This saving faith leads us to repentance as well as finding the life that God offers. Hebrews 11:13-16 God knows what it will take to get one to gain knowledge of repentance. We see only in part. God sees all things. He had to call and make choice known. How can one repent if they cannot hear with understanding?

God knows who will become born again and who will not because he foresees all things. His mercy calls to all as he wills, plans, and intends everyday. He truly shows mercy on whom he wills while He can harden and make a spectacle out of such that reject him or just let these drift into obscurity. God is God. Not hard to understand.

God in his mercy lets people live anyway they so desire in mortal life while mercifully warning them of the consequences of refusing his mercy every earth bound day. He test and weighs which way a man's or woman's spirit will turn even when foreknowing all outcomes beforehand. God is perfect in all his ways.

For us all, after going through a life of various afflictions, trails, tribulations, happy times, sad times, good times, and bad times, designed to aid our seeing and understanding the mercy of the Lord, if a person refuses God's mercy during their mortal sojourn — this proves they'll refuse God grace and eternally abuse it. God does test, refine, and proves fairly, justly, rightly.

Doing so, He proves he is God that can be trusted! He proves his nature and character everyday but some still turn away. This turning away belongs to the creature and not God making them turn away. God is not the author of sin.

If one rejects God's ever present mercy, God can seal their fate during mortal life, however he wants too, and whenever he so wishes because God simply knows everything beforehand. This does not mean God just selects blindly according to random will but rather that God calls and tells of his mercy through Christ so one knows they are really saved and learning of the Lord. These are his elect.

The Lord hardens what is hard in a person that was foreseen to reject him because he knows all things. That is why he can hate those like Esau that reject him and love those that love him like Jacob. He knows all things before all things happen. Not hard to comprehend.

To say God shows mercy only to a randomly selected few is to deny what God's mercy really is about. Mercy would not be mercy if randomness was the real case. God shows mercy as he plans and intends toward everyone, everyday, as the bible teaches and Jesus did too. God makes the rain fall on the just and unjust. God does not immediately destroy us. He is great in mercy and slow to anger towards all.

Woe to them that reject such mercy! God holds them accountable for their sins. Truly, such rejection of his mercy is an act of extreme hubris that God will never allow to inhabit heaven again.

Dross is removed so the pure remains.

More Later...
-
-
-

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8365
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

#120

Post by B. W. » Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:44 am

-
-
More of the Same:

Again in Psalms 33:15 it says the same thing: “He [God] fashions, predestine, ordained, their [peoples] hearts alike; he considers, understands with a superior knowledge all their [peoples] works, actions, deeds, manners, etc.

God made the human heart to function, reason, think, decide, invent, explore, feel, love, have emotions, etc, independently. Why this independence? Would God be all powerful if he could not govern independent minded souls? Making the heart independent proves God is all powerfully sovereign. If not, God is not all powerful.

Why did he make the heart they way he did? This is answered in the next part; because with a superior knowledge above all, that considers everything about people and their deeds, actions, manners, and life course, that this was the best way to make humanity so God can display his attributes, nature, character for his own pleasure.

Do you get it yet? God foreknew all things about all people before they were ever born and fashioned and ordained the heart of all humanity alike: to be thinking, living, breathing beings. From this superior knowledge He maintains control like no other can.

For example, he can steer a person's heart to respond in many diverse ways to carry out his plans because he knows everything about them; what they'll do, how they'll respond, act, think, etc. He grants and shows his mercy and makes it known. He knows who will accept him and who will reject him. He can use people that reject him to carry out his plans. Thus, He steers the heart of kings as the bible says to carry out His plans.

Those foreknown that accept God's call of mercy, he will make them his own special people and never let them go. Those that reject do so of their own accord and are granted banishment from God forever as they wished. God knows all this before any person has ever been born. God can place people wherever and whenever they best fit into God's plan. He is that sovereign.

By his call, he grants humanity a choice, a decision to return to the Lord or remain lost in sin's pains. No matter what choice is made, God performs the counsel of his will and steers all towards perfections final goal: a new heavens and earth

God honors how he made your heart as that is a gift God gave all humanity. God knows the outcome of your life before you have lived it. You do not. That is one small reason he offers mercy to you. Take hold of it now, stop the delay.

You see, it is contingent upon God's foreknowing everything is how he predestines. The scriptures I quoted above reveal this as does Romans 8:29-30 — Whom God Foreknows. Again in 1 Peter 1:2 Elect through the foreknowledge of God…Ephesians 1:4 God chose out from before the foundation of the world…suggest what?

God through foreknowledge shapes and predestines in an absolutely fair and correct manner: Deuteronomy 32:4, “He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are justice: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he” KJV

What else can be said - unless you ask?
-
-
-

Post Reply