Does Reductionism logic weakening the Church

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B. W.
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Does Reductionism logic weakening the Church

Postby B. W. » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:02 am

Christianity in the West and East both believe Jesus existed, turned watered into wine, supernaturally healed the lame, sick, blind, mute, cast of devils out of people, dies on a cross and rose again on the third day, whose blood atones for human sin.

But as for the Church doing the works of Jesus that are mentioned in Isaiah 61:1,2,3,4 not so much... Instead the modern church has taken great strides to take the supernatural elements of Christianity away.

For example:

Some teach cessationism...

Some say no need for spiritual warfare...

Some say that all we have is the salvation formula to save people and that is it.

And this article says a mouthful on this subject...

The message preached from most pulpits in America is just like this: superficial, childish, empty, and seemingly designed to insult the intelligence of anyone who hears it. Christianity is dull and lifeless in this country because that’s what the church and its leaders have done to it. They’ve made it into something so bland, generic and inoffensive that it no longer bears any resemblance to the faith of our Christian ancestors. Even the church buildings themselves reflect this trend. Most of them look like shopping malls or government buildings. Sleek, gray, ugly, secular. But inoffensive. Inoffensive in the same way that the DMV is inoffensive.

Indeed, the primary goal of the modern church is to avoid offense, at whatever cost. And this is precisely why they’re dying.

Qouted from this article by Mat Walsh Dear churches, you’re killing yourselves and this is how


The crux of the problem as I see it is that reductionsim and pragmatism has taken the supernatural element out the the church in exchange for winning a debate by reducing it to how many scholars one can quote on a bible topic. Or reduce to the gospel to talking points and formulas. Then add in pragmatism - what works and is taught in the world will work in the Church so go for it.

Augustine reduced the Apostle Paul's writing to the way he interpreted them. Then proceeding scholars like Calvin onward to present day quote each other on and on. Somehow, Jesus is left out, who Paul wrote about, and what Jesus meant for the church to exercise is left out as well.

As I research this, I find that Augustine used allegory to explain things then reduced these to actually take away the supernatural nature of the Christian Church in its spreading the gospel. Then others quoted him and on and on to where we are at today.

So we have what we have today in the modern Church just as the article mentions... a reduced Christianity...

Comments - thoughts?
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PaulSacramento
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Re: Does Reductionism logic weakening the Church

Postby PaulSacramento » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:35 am

Christianity IS the supernatural.
Eliminate that and you don't have Christianity, you have something else, a false gospel.

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Re: Does Reductionism logic weakening the Church

Postby melanie » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:49 am

I agree that the supernatural is paramount to Christian faith. To believe that Christ lived, died and was resurrected is believing in the most paranormal event in history.
Do supernatural experiences still occur? They certainly did with the Apostles and personally I would never discount the possibility now.
But there has been a gross misrepresentation in the church today. There seems to be a trend of people usually within the Pentecostal Charismatic Movement labelling themselves as prophets. An alarming amount.
The manifestations of the supernatural that has been boldly claimed by some churches is just a lie. A straight out deception.
I believe they believe it but it doesn't make it so. A real danger exists when a church believes they are the instruments of the supernatural. They do all kinds of crazy stuff like pretending to heal the sick, speaking in babbles that they swear is a divine language, holy laughter and delegating divine status to themselves as prophets.
It's a collective delusion of grandeur.
Spiritual warfare is largely a battle within ourselves, everyday. A personal struggle and triumph of faith.
Miracles and amazing encounters with God do occur but not because a preacher pounds on his pulpit or because a congregation thinks that the fruits of the spirit means acting a little fruity.

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Re: Does Reductionism logic weakening the Church

Postby PaulSacramento » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:12 am

Here is the thing, we are told to TEST those that claim to have supernatural gifts, like prophecy and healing and IF they fail, then they are false prophets.
ALL prophets had to prove themselves, all healers had to prove themselves.
Speaking in tongues means speaking a language that EXISTS but was never know to you before.
The proof is in the pudding.

That aside, we must realize that if we accept the supernatural event of the resurrection ( and as Christians we must) then we accept this:
The supernatural exists.
Death CAN be over come, BODILY.
There are other realms beyond this universe/reality.
There are spirits that want to do us harms.
There are beings, not of THIS world/universe/reality, that want to do us harm.
Only via the HS can we resist and fight them.

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Re: Does Reductionism logic weakening the Church

Postby Philip » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:20 am

There is a HUGE difference between saying God has not changed, that He still supernaturally moves, that He still does miracles (as ALL of these are true!), and in asserting that many today have the very SAME personal healing and other miraculous GIFTS and abilities as did the Prophets and Apostles, those in Scripture breaking newly inspired communications from the Lord!

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Re: Does Reductionism logic weakening the Church

Postby PaulSacramento » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:23 am

Philip wrote:There is a HUGE difference between saying God has not changed, that He still supernaturally moves, that He still does miracles (as ALL of these are true!), and in asserting that many today have the very SAME personal healing and other miraculous GIFTS and abilities as did the Prophets and Apostles, those in Scripture breaking newly inspired communications from the Lord!

Indeed and those make such statements need to prove to the nth degree that they can do those things.

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Re: Does Reductionism logic weakening the Church

Postby RickD » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:14 pm

Philip wrote:There is a HUGE difference between saying God has not changed, that He still supernaturally moves, that He still does miracles (as ALL of these are true!), and in asserting that many today have the very SAME personal healing and other miraculous GIFTS and abilities as did the Prophets and Apostles, those in Scripture breaking newly inspired communications from the Lord!

Bingo!!!!
1 Corinthians 1:9
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Re: Does Reductionism logic weakening the Church

Postby B. W. » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:11 pm

RickD wrote:
Philip wrote:There is a HUGE difference between saying God has not changed, that He still supernaturally moves, that He still does miracles (as ALL of these are true!), and in asserting that many today have the very SAME personal healing and other miraculous GIFTS and abilities as did the Prophets and Apostles, those in Scripture breaking newly inspired communications from the Lord!

Bingo!!!!


Yep bingo!

Like in Luke 4:1,2 - Jesus received the empowerment of the Holy Spirit and was then led into the wilderness to be tested with the common temptations that caused humanity to have more in common with the tempter than God. Ancient Israel failed this same test in their wilderness.

Ancient Israel failed. Jesus overcame. The Modern Church is in the wilderness.

However, for many folks in the church world, they experience an encounter with the power of God, then find themselves led into a wilderness not realizing they are being tested.Will they do what ancient Israel did or instead walk like Jesus did?

Turning stones into bread is the lust of the flesh that says - "I can partake/consume/do whatever I want."

Israel said, "give us - give us quail to eat - not manna from Heaven but what the world gives!"

Many modern church folks fail this test and teach that it is God's will for you to do whatever you want with his word, gifts, callings, promises and teach that 'Give me Give me' gospel and end up remaining in the wilderness. Whole teachings and movements promote this and stain Christianity.

Jesus passed this test and the church needs to take Jesus' cure seriously and do likewise: It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God -Luke 4:4.

Lust of the Eyes manifest in the temptation to exercise power to control the shots in life, achieve glory, worship the world's ways. It says with lofty eyes, "I will not be under anyone's control except my own."

Ancient Israel, said often, "lets go back to the slavery of Egypt and serve the world's ways, be governed by world's culture, do as the world does at least we can control our own ways of living."

You know, I see whole church assemblies teach this temptation as God approved thus staining the church. Jesus passed this test and the church needs to take Jesus' cure seriously: Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve - Luke 4:8

Luke 4:8-11-- Pride of Life states," I am God's favorite!" and slowly learns to shout - "I am a god - no harm can come to me!" and " I have greasy grace to protect me, no need to do anything at all, I am favored of God. I can be a Messiah, Mega Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor, Super Teacher!"

However for Ancient Israel, they saw giants in the land and said, "We do not have to enter the promised land, cause God cannot give it to us anyways...what harm can come to us - the children of Abraham, Issac, Jacob - let's go back to the world?"

Jesus passed this test and the church needs to take Jesus' cure seriously and do likewise: Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God, Luke 4:12 

Until the Church wakes up and passes their test in the wilderness meant to teach us what it means to live responsible before Holy God, then most of the church will remain in the wilderness and the result is that we will not see manifestations of the mighty power of God as Jesus promised in John 14:10,11,12,13,14,15 occurring in any great degree...

It is time to get out of the wilderness...
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Re: Does Reductionism logic weakening the Church

Postby RickD » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:33 pm

B. W. wrote:
It is time to get out of the wilderness...


I felt like I was living in the wilderness since Sunday. No power, no ac, no internet...

Then I rebuked the spirit of no electricity, in Jesus' name. And the unclean spirit fled, and the power came back on!

I have the gift of electricity!

:lol:
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Does Reductionism logic weakening the Church

Postby Philip » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:32 pm

That's OK - Ricko still managed to have some N. Florida fun!

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Looks like he had a great time!

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Re: Does Reductionism logic weakening the Church

Postby B. W. » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:20 am

RickD wrote:
B. W. wrote:
It is time to get out of the wilderness...


I felt like I was living in the wilderness since Sunday. No power, no ac, no internet...

Then I rebuked the spirit of no electricity, in Jesus' name. And the unclean spirit fled, and the power came back on!

I have the gift of electricity!

:lol:


Shocking!
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

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Re: Does Reductionism logic weakening the Church

Postby RickD » Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:21 am

B. W. wrote:
Some say that all we have is the salvation formula to save people and that is it.

Who are the "some" who say this? I've never heard a believer say that we are saved by a "Magic" salvation formula.

What kind of weird Pentecostal churches are you going to, B. W.?
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony


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