Edit: Apology is two posts down...as I was pointed to my sin...and accepted.
Jac3510 wrote:OK guys, this is the last time I'll respond in this thread. As has been noted, things are getting a bit heated, and while that is OK to an extent, I think we are coming close to the place where we all have to say (or at least me) that we have stated our positions and let conclusions be drawn.
Briefly, before I walk through Bav's primary objections to OSAS, let me comment on Adam. Listen, Bav. God never declared Adam righteous. Show me in the Scriptures where He did. I can show you where He declared Abraham righteous (Gen. 15:6), and I can show you where we are declared righteous (Rom. 8:30).
I never said Adam was “declared” righteous nor did I claim the Scriptures do…but we must assume he eventually was! It makes no difference whether Adam was morally perfect or in a state of moral innocence. The fact remains…Adam was in a “saved” state…AND LOST IT
Jac3510 wrote:Adam was created in a state of moral innocence, not moral perfection. In other words, he did NOT have a sin nature, and at the time of his creation, he had no sin in him. Therefore, he was morally innocent. That is very different from moral perfection, which is what we will be in the New Creation.
Really? Then please explain why when Christ was raised, his wounds were not healed. Tell me why they should serve as a reminder of what God did for us in another life? Why would even need to remind a morally perfect being about a past sin?
The fact is because we will retain our freewill when we are made new…just like Adam…with at least one simple advantage over Adam's creation…we Will
know good and evil. We will know and remember what sin is and does by his scars.
Jac3510 wrote:A Morally Perfect being cannot sin. It goes against their very nature to sin. Please note that while Adam did not have a sin nature, he equally did not have a divine nature (as did Jesus Christ). Look at James 1:14. God tells us that sin tempts the desires already existing in us. What did Satan tempt Adam to? Easy: independence, autonomy, and self-government. Adam had a desire within him to "be his own god.' If he did not, then he would not have sinned, for he would not have been tempted. However, the existence of that potential restricts us from applying to Adam the term "moral perfection." Adam had what we might call a neutral nature, neither divine nor sinful. Today, we have sinful natures. Jesus had a divine nature, which is the reason He was able to live without sin.
Pretty close to Mormon theology that we will be gods. God will be the only one with a divine nature throughout eternity. We will remain created beings and subject to His sovereignty.
Another thing you fail to realize is that Satan was allowed to tempt Adam…or do you believe that without Satan around to tempt Adam we'd still be where we are today? Satan wont be around in 'heaven'. There will not be any temptation.
Did Adam tempt himself? Could Adam tempt himself?
Come on Jac3510
…you're the pastor here. This is basic stuff…no Tempter = no temptation. The righteous people will not sin because of three reasons…no thanks to moral perfection.
1. No Satan present
2. Knowledge of good and evil
3. The scars as a reminder.
All of which Adam was without prior to sin. Satan was without this information also!
So…Adam is the supreme example of being in a saved state…and losing his salvation!
Jac3510 wrote:So, AGAIN, you still have to provide a precedent for your position. You haven't done it, and I guarantee you that you can't.
I did. I gave you Adam…a being created and within salvation already. You just refuse to accept it and use your own twisted logic to toss his example aside. The reason Adam remains as this example is already stated above.
First, let's clarify "Once Saved Always Saved." I have said this before and it was overlooked. What we are dealing with, more accurately, is "Once Justified Always Justified." It is EXTREMELY important that you see that, Bav.
I do see it. I understand it and believe it. However, one cannot rely in ourselves to remain in Christ. We must daily seek God and daily be broken! It is a commitment. How do we explain, then, the chosen people today? Are they still saved? I might as well live out the desires of my sinful flesh (they are many!)…because I've already accepted Christ…I've been justified.
Heck…even one of the new guys on here recently stated a few posts back something to the effect that we don't need to go and seek out the backslidden person because they are saved no matter in what state they find themselves in now. The reason he stated to go and bring them back was for our benefit and the benefit of others…not for themselves as the doctrine of OSAS is their safety net.
This is the type of thinking this OSAS brings. No regard for remaining true to Christ
The only way OSAS holds value is to the Christian that is committed to Christ. A daily struggle…as Paul.
Romans 7:24 NIV wrote: What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?
I hope you understand that there is a constant struggle between the spiritual and the unspiritual within the mind of the Christian. When a person falls away…and stays away
this struggle has ceased and s/he is no longer serving or seeking God, but serving and seeking self. The longer one stays in this state of mind, the easier it is to remain and eventually could be guilty of the unpardonable sin…resisting the call of the HS! That sin is unforgivable.
As I mentioned in a prior post, we are admonished throughout scripture to follow, endure, persevere, remain in. Why? Why persevere if once we come to Christ we are justified? If OSAS as you promote it is true…there's no need to persevere, remain in, follow, endure.
1) Those whom God justifies are considered righteous before God (Rom. 4:5). As you are aware:
- “justification” “to justify,” in a legal sense, the declaring just or righteous.
I understand the legality of being justified. I also understand the illegality of committing the same sin again with no regard in seeking forgiveness and relying on OSAS.
Jac3510 wrote:In Biblical literature, δικαιουν, dikaioún, without denying the real righteousness of a person, is used invariably or almost invariably in a declarative or forensic sense. (ISBE)[/list]2) Righteousness is not real righteousness. That is, we are not literally righteous, but God chooses to view us as such. (see ISBE's article on justification, 3.5.b., esp, "This is shown further by the fact that it is the ungodly who are justified (Rom_4:5), and that the justification is a reckoning or imputation (logízesthai) of righteousness (Rom_4:6, Rom_4:22), not an infusing or making righteous.")
3) This righteousness is reckoned or imputed by grace (Rom. 4:6).
4) This grace is received through grace alone, and not by works (Eph. 2:8-10)
Now, to be declared righteous is to be justified of sins. That is, God makes a legal decree: Not Guilty. Those who are justified are adopted as Sons of God (Rom. 8:15, Eph. 1:5). Those who are the sons of God are no longer under the Law (Gal. 4:5). We know that the Law does not save, but that grace saves--in fact, the Law can only condemn! (Rom. 3:20)
All of this is quite clear to me…
Jac3510 wrote:So, picture what we know so far: you have come to faith in Jesus Christ, confessing with your mouth that He is Lord and God, and believing in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, as per Rom. 10:7-10. What happens? God, through His grace and His grace alone declares all your sins, past, present, and future, as paid. Jesus Christ has become the propitiation for all of them (Heb. 2:17; 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:10). Therefore, you have overcome the world (1 John 5:4). We know you have overcome because you have been "born of God" (1 John 5:4).
What, then, does that say to us if we are "born of God?" Rev. 3:5 tells us that he who overcomes will not have his named blotted out of the book of life. Remember who overcomes: he who has been born again! So, if we have been born again, we have overcome, and if we have overcome, our names will not be blotted out of the book of life! This is undeniable. It is straight Scripture, Bav.
You are preaching to the choir here. This is well understood.
Jac3510 wrote:What, then, do we say about the Book of Life? Rev. 20:15 says that anyone who is not in that book will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Why? Because they will be judged from the other books, that is, the books of their works, and their works will show them guilty. However, those in the Book of Life will not be guilty for their works, because their works have already been paid for by Jesus Christ through His justification of their sins through their faith in Him!
Therefore, we conclude that future sin in the life of the Christian does not prevent him from being saved, for there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus (Rom. 8:1). ALL sins have been atoned for. Therefore, we are forced to ask ourselves this question: how can one be unjustified once he has been justified? We will note that no where in the Scriptures, not ANYWHERE, is a justified man declared unrighteous. This is because it cannot be done! Why? Because justification is not the work of man--it is the work of God, and what God has done, man cannot undo.
Except by freewill!!
Jac3510 wrote:You ask what of the man who removes his faith in Jesus Christ. I say that he cannot be renewed to the state of repentance (Heb. 6:4), and his state now will be worse than it was prior to being justified (2 Peter 2:20). Why is it worse? Because, like Saul, God has rejected his service in this life, and he has been turned over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh (1 Cor. 5:5). It is a horrible state, one of deep shame. But, this does NOT unjustify him. How can it? Even that gross sin has already been forgiven! If not, then that means that God changed His mind, and He clearly has not done that!
You argue that OSAS (better, OJAJ) allows a person the right to "keep on sinning." I have adequately shown that it does not. If a person does keep on sinning, then he loses out on the sanctification process. He can no longer lay up treasures in heaven, so he is worse off than the unbeliever who still has a chance. He is still, though, justified. That means he is still in the book of life, and that means he still has a place in heaven.
It is, therefore, absolutely essential that we understand the relationship between justification and salvation. You cannot assume that salvation results from sanctification. That simply is not true. It is the measure of your glorification that will result from the process of sanctification (2 Cor. 5:10. Note, this is a reference to the judgement of Christians. See also 1 Cor. 3:15).
In conclusion, then:
1) Justification is a one time, irreversible declaration of God that seals one's place in heaven.
2) Sanctification is the ongoing process through which the believer is turned more and more into the likeness of Christ. The measure of this sanctification equals the measure in which one will be glorified. This process may be halted by death or the loss (that is, rejection) of one's faith.
So one can lose faith and not lose grace? Grace comes by faith. You really contradict yourself here.
Here's a good question for you.
You mean to tell me a person that has accepted Christ as you point out above can then reject the sanctification process and still…in the end…claim the Blood of Christ and be saved?
My stance is, NO
Matthew 7:21 NIV wrote:Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 7:24 NIV wrote:Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Jac3510 wrote:3) Glorification is that final state in which the work of salvation, began in justification, is completed. Some will be glorified more than others, depending on their exposure to the sanctification process.
Excellent…now you might as well start quoting Joseph Smith to back this up!
Jac3510 wrote:Therefore, OSAS IS the proper biblical doctrine.
I could go on to list dozens more references, Bav. I could argue that the rejection of this doctrine can actually land one in Hell. As long as this post is, it isn't nearly as detailed as it should be, but, it is enough to show that, Scripturally speaking, the justification process CANNOT BE REVERSED. You, then, have to answer one simple question:
Can a person justified by God find himself in Hell?
Yes. By a freewill choice of choosing and un-choosing God.
I reject it!
I also have accepted Christ as you put it above.