Once saved, always saved?

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
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#46

Post by Anonymous » Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:34 pm

I don't quite understand your question. :oops: Do you mean when I drifted away? If so, as I said it was a gradual process. If you had asked me last year if I was saved then I would have said "yes, but I am not living the Christian way of life"

Mark

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#47

Post by Jac3510 » Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:42 pm

BavarianWheels wrote:
Jac3510 wrote:I have said it a million times before: we cannot unjustify what God has justified. What God has declared righteous, we cannot declare unrighteous. But, just because we are JUSTIFIED does not mean we will be thoroughly SANCTIFIED in this life. We can lose our inheritance in heaven . . . not our place
Interesting...please explain then the perfectly created Adam and Eve...

If perfect humans can, who says imperfect humans can't?

This OSAS is one of the most deceptive teachings given.
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I believe Felgar pretty much answered this well, but just to clarify, the Bible does NOT say that God created Adam "perfect." He was created innocent, yes. However, Adam was created in such a way that he had the potential to sin. He was given free will. In this sense, Adam was perfect . . . he was perfectly designed to do what he was designed to do, which was to make a choice.

Be careful not to confuse the seed with the fruit. God created men so as to be in everlasting (your welcome, K ;)) relationship with them. But, the universe simply isn't everlasting. Oh sure, you can argue that prior to the fall of man that the universe would have been everlasting, but that seems awful ad hoc to me. Besides that, I like the New Creation much better, so far as I understand it, than the one we live in now, or even the one Adam lived in before the Fall! The thing is, an everlasting being must be placed into a temporal world if he is to make a choice, because choice requires time. This is one reason I hold to a static concept of time with God, because I don't see how a temporal world can be logically everlasting, but that is another debate. Regardless, Adam was perfectly designed to choose to accept or reject God, and he was put in perfect conditions to accept Him. But, as it is, he rejected, and we have history as a result. In other words, Adam was functionally perfect, not morally perfect, because moral perfection is the result of a completed work that requires a free (and thus temporal) choice. I hope that's clear . . . I'm in a hurry and my thoughts are a bit jumbled right now. *shrug*

I think this should also answer your follow up post to Felgar as well, since it would be equally directed at me, considering we have basicaly the same view on these things.

God bless
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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#48

Post by BavarianWheels » Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:48 pm

markh wrote:I don't quite understand your question. :oops: Do you mean when I drifted away? If so, as I said it was a gradual process. If you had asked me last year if I was saved then I would have said "yes, but I am not living the Christian way of life"

Mark
Jac3510 wrote:I have said it a million times before: we cannot unjustify what God has justified. What God has declared righteous, we cannot declare unrighteous. But, just because we are JUSTIFIED does not mean we will be thoroughly SANCTIFIED in this life. We can lose our inheritance in heaven . . . not our place
The question is easy. Can a person remain fallen and still be saved?

If yes, then Christ had no need to tell Mary the prostitute, "neither do I condemn you. Go and leave your life of sin." Christ should've told her, her sin is forgiven and now continue in prostitution since you have been forgiven of it. Rediculous isn't it! So is OSAS!

If God has declared you righteous already, why not continue doing what pleases the flesh and still be saved?

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#49

Post by Anonymous » Mon Nov 15, 2004 4:00 pm

I don't know what to say. I am going to bed now.

Mark :cry: :( :?: :?: :?:

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#50

Post by Jac3510 » Mon Nov 15, 2004 4:20 pm

Bav, I'm going to simply ask you to STOP with that objection. You are presenting a clear cut straw man of what OSAS is all about, and you know it, because I have explained it more than a few times. GRACE DOES NOT GIVE A PERSON THE LICENSE TO SIN!!! Quit saying that OSAS says it does. IT DOES NOT. Look at Romans 6:1, or Jude 4:
  • For certain men who condemnation has been written about long ago have secretly slipped in among yuo. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ as our only Sovereign and Lord (ESV, emphasis added)
So, for a final time, OSAS does not give a person the right to go out and keep on sinning. I'm asking you to come off that.

What OSAS DOES teach is that a person is capable of falling away and/or backsliding after salvation and still maintaining his justification. He does NOT maintain his rewards or inheritance in the Kingdom of God. Further, if a person truly and finally rejects his faith, he CANNOT be renewed to repentance (Heb. 6:4), but that does not mean he loses his salvation.

In fact, Bav, under your idea, for the person who rejects his faith, he is permanently damned and CANNOT come back based on that verse. If you believe that, fine, but what you are telling me is that God Himself stops loving them, and that isn't the God I worship. That isn't the God of the Bible. What that verse tells us is consistent with the rest of the Bible. A justified person, once he has rejected the faith, is turned over to Satan. His body is destroyed that his soul might be saved.

Again, if you want to mount an attack against OSAS, feel free, but I'm asking you to drop this line of thought because it is simply a straw man. Stop insisting that it is what we believe. It is not.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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#51

Post by Felgar » Mon Nov 15, 2004 4:21 pm

Jac3510 wrote:The thing is, an everlasting being must be placed into a temporal world if he is to make a choice, because choice requires time.
Interesting concept Jac. The concept of choice holds no meaning in a non-temporal existance. I never looked at it like that, but I think you're on the right track.

Though, temporal and mortal are two different things. Angels are immortal spiritual beings but they too are temporal. Right?
BavarianWheels wrote: If yes, then Christ had no need to tell Mary the prostitute, "neither do I condemn you. Go and leave your life of sin." Christ should've told her, her sin is forgiven and now continue in prostitution since you have been forgiven of it. Rediculous isn't it! So is OSAS!

If God has declared you righteous already, why not continue doing what pleases the flesh and still be saved?
The question is simple, and you have the question right. But the answer is YES!

Why didn't Christ condemn her? Because she was already saved! Why should she leave her life of sin? The same reasons that we should we all leave our lives of sin:

1) We'll answer for our actions and our heavenly reward will be based on them. 2) We will not lead ANYONE else to the truth if we're not living for Him. 3) Sin not only leads to spiritual death but physical death also. If we live according to His Word our time on Earth will be much more satisfying, fulfilling, and will likely be much less painful as well. Consider that a Christian life is mostly free of STD's. In addition our children's lives are influenced based on our sin too. I personally believe that I am blessed because of my Grandparents and their parents who were loving, God fearing people.

There are more reasons I'm sure...

And you still haven't specifically addressed my Corinthians quote. Please do because you only said that 'it doesn't support OSAS.' What do you think the passage means if not OSAS?

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#52

Post by BavarianWheels » Mon Nov 15, 2004 4:57 pm

Jac3510 wrote:Bav, I'm going to simply ask you to STOP with that objection. You are presenting a clear cut straw man of what OSAS is all about, and you know it, because I have explained it more than a few times. GRACE DOES NOT GIVE A PERSON THE LICENSE TO SIN!!! Quit saying that OSAS says it does. IT DOES NOT. Look at Romans 6:1, or Jude 4:
  • For certain men who condemnation has been written about long ago have secretly slipped in among yuo. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ as our only Sovereign and Lord (ESV, emphasis added)
So, for a final time, OSAS does not give a person the right to go out and keep on sinning. I'm asking you to come off that.

What OSAS DOES teach is that a person is capable of falling away and/or backsliding after salvation and still maintaining his justification. He does NOT maintain his rewards or inheritance in the Kingdom of God. Further, if a person truly and finally rejects his faith, he CANNOT be renewed to repentance (Heb. 6:4), but that does not mean he loses his salvation.

In fact, Bav, under your idea, for the person who rejects his faith, he is permanently damned and CANNOT come back based on that verse. If you believe that, fine, but what you are telling me is that God Himself stops loving them, and that isn't the God I worship. That isn't the God of the Bible. What that verse tells us is consistent with the rest of the Bible. A justified person, once he has rejected the faith, is turned over to Satan. His body is destroyed that his soul might be saved.

Again, if you want to mount an attack against OSAS, feel free, but I'm asking you to drop this line of thought because it is simply a straw man. Stop insisting that it is what we believe. It is not.
Then STOP providing the straw man for me.
Jac3510 wrote:I have said it a million times before: we cannot unjustify what God has justified. What God has declared righteous, we cannot declare unrighteous. But, just because we are JUSTIFIED does not mean we will be thoroughly SANCTIFIED in this life. We can lose our inheritance in heaven . . . not our place
Insist all you wish, OSAS says that even if I or anyone should fall away and stay away they are saved...that is what OSAS is! That is what all Calvary Chapel (and you apparently) people that I meet tell me. They tell me the same thing. Whomever God justifies is justified forever. This is correct as long as the faith is followed by works that prove the faith.

See James 2: 18-26.

One cannot be saved, fall away, and remain away and still be saved.

One must see the error of his/her ways, hear the HS speaking to their heart and take notice and return to Christ as the new member, Mark, has apparently done.
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#53

Post by Jac3510 » Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:37 pm

Bav wrote:Then STOP providing the straw man for me.
I'm not providing the attack, Bav. I've set forth a position and you have twisted it to say something that it does not say.
Bav wrote:Insist all you wish, OSAS says that even if I or anyone should fall away and stay away they are saved...that is what OSAS is! That is what all Calvary Chapel (and you apparently) people that I meet tell me. They tell me the same thing. Whomever God justifies is justified forever. This is correct as long as the faith is followed by works that prove the faith.
Yes, OSAS says that you can fall away and still be saved. I totally agree. I believe it to the fullest. It does NOT give the Christian the license to sin, which is what you keep on asserting. I have already said dozens of times that there are consequences--eternal consequences at that--for a Christian who remains in sin. However, I reject the notion that the consequence is the loss of salvation. It is utterly ridiculous. It turns faith into a work, and therefore salvation becomes earned, and therefore it is NOT grace.

As to James 2:18-26, this passage presents absolutely NO problem for OSAS. It is not faith that saves, Bav. It is GRACE that saves THROUGH faith. But, faith in what? What kind of faith? It is a faith that works that saves. The best you can do here, Bav, is argue for a works based salvation out of this passage. It does NOT argue that one can LOSE his salvation. Are you going to tell me that you also believe in salvation by works? Because, if so, then you can't believe the Bible is innerant based on Eph. 2:8-10.

So, I challenge you to present me with a single passage that says a person can LOSE their salvation. You can't do it, because it's not in the Bible, because it is not a biblical position. Justification is a declaration of God. God never declared Adam righteous. He did declare me righteous the moment I confessed my sins and accepted the resurrected Jesus Christ as my Lord, Savior, and God. He justified ALL my sins. I have said this a million times, Bav, and no one has answered me yet: how can God condemn me to Hell if ALL of my sins have been justified? That would mean that, before God, I am completely innocent of all sin. There is no charge to level against me. What, then, is the justification? Rev. 3:5 makes it clear that only those whose names are blotted out of the book of life will be cast into Hell (c.f. Rev. 20:15). Sin is what blots a person from the Book. If all of my sins have been forgiven, what blots me out, Bav? Even if I turn away, is this not a sin? And has this not been forgiven? Then how does it blot me out, Bav? And if it does not blot me out, and if I am therefore in the book of life, then does God lie in Rev. 20:15? Are there those in the Book of Life who can be thrown into Hell, Bav? What, then, is the book of life? Can God be mistaken? Can He be wrong? Can His judgement be overturned (which is exactly what would happen if God's declaration of righteousness is stripped from me based on the changing of my fickle mind)?

OSAS teaches that once a person is justified, they are justified for all time. We can lose our inheritance. We can bring to a halt the process of sanctification. But, justification is a work of God. It is a declaration of God, and, as God has said, His Word stands forever. It cannot be undone.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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#54

Post by Anonymous » Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:37 pm

Felgar wrote:God is perfect. Were Adam and Eve God's equal?
Adam was morally perfect when God created him. Are you suggesting that God created Adam morally imperfect?

A perfect God creating an imperfect human being then blame the human being for sinning due to being imperfectly created by the perfect creator??????? :shock:

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#55

Post by Anonymous » Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:48 pm

Felgar wrote:Again, I must disagree. Notice the words "Recieve a rich welcome" which Jac and I would contend point to a heavenly reward for maintaining our Faith and living lives as unto the Lord.
It says, rich WELCOME, not rich REWARD. Besides, is that all you can say about what I posted?
I contend that all of the passages you just quoted refer to heavenly reward being won or lost, while the Corinthians passage of a man handed over to Satan for his soul to be saved in Christ must be evidence that justification can never be lost once attained.

If not, what explanation do you give for the man who refuses to give up his immoral ways and will be turned over to Satan for destruction of his flesh? He is still saved as the passage points out.
Of course, a single sin whether incest or murder, does not disqualify the person from heaven. My point is when that person comes to the point of unbelief, and persistent sinning could result into that (see Heb. 3:12), then he loses his salvation. That is what Paul was trying to avoid for that man in Corinth. He wants this incentious person be right away disciplined (notice that it will be done during church assembly time) so that he totally turn his back from the Lord.

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#56

Post by Anonymous » Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:59 pm

Jac3510 wrote: Yes, OSAS says that you can fall away and still be saved.
Come on! You can fall from grace and STILL be saved???? Being so would mean you are no longer under the grace of God but under divine condemnation! Tha's where OSAS becomes really dangerous.

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#57

Post by Anonymous » Mon Nov 15, 2004 6:03 pm

Hey guys, what do you think of Judas Iscariot, is he saved or not?

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#58

Post by BavarianWheels » Mon Nov 15, 2004 8:50 pm

Jac3510 wrote:So, I challenge you to present me with a single passage that says a person can LOSE their salvation. You can't do it, because it's not in the Bible, because it is not a biblical position. Justification is a declaration of God. God never declared Adam righteous. He did declare me righteous the moment I confessed my sins and accepted the resurrected Jesus Christ as my Lord, Savior, and God. He justified ALL my sins. I have said this a million times, Bav, and no one has answered me yet: how can God condemn me to Hell if ALL of my sins have been justified? That would mean that, before God, I am completely innocent of all sin. There is no charge to level against me. What, then, is the justification? Rev. 3:5 makes it clear that only those whose names are blotted out of the book of life will be cast into Hell (c.f. Rev. 20:15). Sin is what blots a person from the Book. If all of my sins have been forgiven, what blots me out, Bav? Even if I turn away, is this not a sin? And has this not been forgiven? Then how does it blot me out, Bav? And if it does not blot me out, and if I am therefore in the book of life, then does God lie in Rev. 20:15? Are there those in the Book of Life who can be thrown into Hell, Bav? What, then, is the book of life? Can God be mistaken? Can He be wrong? Can His judgement be overturned (which is exactly what would happen if God's declaration of righteousness is stripped from me based on the changing of my fickle mind)?

OSAS teaches that once a person is justified, they are justified for all time. We can lose our inheritance. We can bring to a halt the process of sanctification. But, justification is a work of God. It is a declaration of God, and, as God has said, His Word stands forever. It cannot be undone.
I did give you the biblical example. I give you Adam...and you shove it aside because "God didn't declare Adam righteous..." Was Adam not pretty well engraved in the "book of life"? He lost his immortality that was in Christ.

I give you a human being that having already tasted, lived, experienced the "salvation" of God...being born into it...and lost it. A perfect human being lost it! This is more of an example than you ask for.

What you're not understanding, Jac3510, is that by saying that once justification comes, the whole person is justified regardless of the life they later lead. Having fallen away, unless the person returns to God, one cannot be saved.

This is not about short term aways...we can agree that a person can fall and knowing s/he's fallen gets up again. This is not about those that do return like markh...it's about those that having accepted Christ, and never come back from a backslidden state.

What I'm talking about is one that has accepted Christ...lived a Christian life knowing good from evil....and being pulled away and knowingly continues to sin...is still saved. Relying on the OSAS doctrine and never returning from sin...knowingly staying apart. THAT, my good pastor, is why the teaching OSAS is so dangerous. It's akin to relying on a deathbed confession to Christ...it doesn't always happen as planned.
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#59

Post by RGeeB » Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:47 am

Does anyone know of anybody who accepted God's grace through Christ and then 'fell away' for the rest of their lives? All the drifters I knew (only a couple) eventually came back to Christ.

Maybe OSAS is true in a sense - just because God in His mercy always brings the prodigals back.

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#60

Post by Felgar » Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:47 am

RGeeB wrote:Does anyone know of anybody who accepted God's grace through Christ and then 'fell away' for the rest of their lives? All the drifters I knew (only a couple) eventually came back to Christ.

Maybe OSAS is true in a sense - just because God in His mercy always brings the prodigals back.
There's a guy on another forum who vehemently denies God's existence; says he drifted away in a 6-7 year process and now is convinced that God never existed in the first place. I don't know him personally though. He's tough to argue with because he knows more about the scriptures than pretty much every other nonbeliever. :)

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