Once saved, always saved?

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
Felgar
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#31

Post by Felgar » Fri Nov 12, 2004 9:37 am

The Corrinthian's passage is not strong Biblical support? How about the 20+ scriptures that directly say that Faith, not works, saves?

PS. Welcome to the forum TO. :)

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#32

Post by Anonymous » Sat Nov 13, 2004 1:47 am

Felgar wrote:The Corrinthian's passage is not strong Biblical support? How about the 20+ scriptures that directly say that Faith, not works, saves?

PS. Welcome to the forum TO. :)
Yes. The Corinthian passage does not teach OSAS.

True, the Bible teaches that salvation is by faith and not by works. That's the reason a Christian who lost his faith is no longer saved. How do we know that a person has lost his faith in Christ? By his works. We say that a person has a saving faith if his faith is followed by actions (James 2:14,20,26). Therefore, a person who once has faith (as seen in his fruit/action) who is no longer produces such works is evidently has lost his faith. If we insist that person has still faith (and thus still saved) even his actions/fruits no longer manifest, then we go against the counsel of the Apostle James. For James, that kind of faith that manifests no works/actions is not a saving faith.

Thanks for the welcome, bro. :wink:

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Jac3510
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#33

Post by Jac3510 » Sat Nov 13, 2004 10:46 pm

I'll ask you exactly the same thing I asked Bav before, Third:

When Christ justifies us of our sins, does He justify us only of our past sins, or all sins, past, present, and future? It should be obvious that Christ forgives us of ALL sin. There is no condemnation for those in Jesus. NONE.

I have said it a million times before: we cannot unjustify what God has justified. What God has declared righteous, we cannot declare unrighteous. But, just because we are JUSTIFIED does not mean we will be thoroughly SANCTIFIED in this life. We can lose our inheritance in heaven . . . not our place

To teach that we can lose our salvation by removing our faith in Jesus is to equate our faith with a work: so long as we put our faith in Christ, He can sustain His saving grace. Therefore, we have to DO something--keep our faith in Him. That puts us in the position of earning our salvation, and if it is earned, it is not grace. Therefore, the doctrine that teaches a person can lose his salvation is a damnable doctrine, because it is rooted in human pride. We have to have SOME part in salvation . . . it can't be just as simple as that.

Not only can it be, but it must. To deny it is to deny grace, and to deny grace is to make God a liar. To make God a liar is to condemn one's self to to hell.

OSAS is thoroughly supported biblically. Not only that, but, not surprisingly, no where does the Bible even hint that we can lose our salvation. It is very one sided on the issue, so that should tell you something ;)
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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#34

Post by Felgar » Sun Nov 14, 2004 12:44 am

Well said Jac. I completely agree.

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#35

Post by Anonymous » Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:23 am

Jac3510 wrote:When Christ justifies us of our sins, does He justify us only of our past sins, or all sins, past, present, and future? It should be obvious that Christ forgives us of ALL sin. There is no condemnation for those in Jesus. NONE.
The moment we believe in Christ, He justifies all our sins. No problem with that. Yes, there is no more condemnation for those who are IN Christ. But a person could be IN Christ only by his faith. If that person begins to lose his faith as evidenced by the kind of life he lives now (remember that saving faith is proven by works according to James), then he caanot be said to be IN Christ. A person who is IN Christ lives a new life (2 Cor. 5:17).
I have said it a million times before: we cannot unjustify what God has justified. What God has declared righteous, we cannot declare unrighteous. But, just because we are JUSTIFIED does not mean we will be thoroughly SANCTIFIED in this life. We can lose our inheritance in heaven . . . not our place
I disagree. Paul rebuked the Galatians who have been set free and yet they were trying to be justified by law which causes them to be alienated (the opposite of “IN”) from Christ. (Gal. 5:1-4). What is the problem with the Galatians? They were losing their faith and instead they were trying to be justified by observing the law.
To teach that we can lose our salvation by removing our faith in Jesus is to equate our faith with a work: so long as we put our faith in Christ, He can sustain His saving grace. Therefore, we have to DO something--keep our faith in Him.
Actually, “to believe” is something we must “do” in order to be saved: "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." To “place our trust” in Christ is something is something we must do in order to be saved. You cannot deny this truth. However, this “doing/working” is not meritorious like the sacrifices in the Roman Catholic Church that earns one's place in eternity.

And yes, we need to keep our faith in order to maintain our salvation. We must be good stewards of what God has freely given us. Look at the following passage:

2 PETER 1:10-11
10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall,
11 and you will receive a rich welcome
into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

REVELATION 3:15-21
15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other!
16 So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.
17 You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.
18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.
19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent.
20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.
21 To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.

JUDE 1:21
Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life. (Jude 1:21)

Those passages show that we have part in keeping the gift of salvation that God gave us.
That puts us in the position of earning our salvation, and if it is earned, it is not grace. Therefore, the doctrine that teaches a person can lose his salvation is a damnable doctrine, because it is rooted in human pride. We have to have SOME part in salvation . . . it can't be just as simple as that.
Not in anyway that one's act of believing in Christ and the act of repenting put him in the position of earning his salvation, yet it is a “doing” that one must “do.” Otherwise, one cannot have salvation. That's why Paul and Silas said to the Jailer, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved...” And Jesus also said, "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” (John 3:18 ) Jesus also wanted Jezebel to be saved if she would repent, thus he gave her time to repent so that she could be forgiven and saved (Rev. 2:21). Jezebel must “do” something.

Now, if believing is NOT WORK, then ceasing to believe is NOT WORK either.
OSAS is thoroughly supported biblically. Not only that, but, not surprisingly, no where does the Bible even hint that we can lose our salvation. It is very one sided on the issue, so that should tell you something
Well, like I said, OSAS has no strong biblical basis. Many times it is by misinterpreting a passage that one is lead to believe that OSAS is biblical. On the other hand, OSAS believers employs mental gymnastics to explain away passages that prove salvation could be lost.

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#36

Post by Felgar » Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Again, I must disagree. Notice the words "Recieve a rich welcome" which Jac and I would contend point to a heavenly reward for maintaining our Faith and living lives as unto the Lord. I contend that all of the passages you just quoted refer to heavenly reward being won or lost, while the Corinthians passage of a man handed over to Satan for his soul to be saved in Christ must be evidence that justification can never be lost once attained.

If not, what explanation do you give for the man who refuses to give up his immoral ways and will be turned over to Satan for destruction of his flesh? He is still saved as the passage points out.

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BavarianWheels
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#37

Post by BavarianWheels » Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:20 pm

Jac3510 wrote:I have said it a million times before: we cannot unjustify what God has justified. What God has declared righteous, we cannot declare unrighteous. But, just because we are JUSTIFIED does not mean we will be thoroughly SANCTIFIED in this life. We can lose our inheritance in heaven . . . not our place
Interesting...please explain then the perfectly created Adam and Eve...

If perfect humans can, who says imperfect humans can't?

This OSAS is one of the most deceptive teachings given.
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#38

Post by Felgar » Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:31 pm

First actually huans weren't created perfect. I believe the scriptures say 'It was good.'

Regarding Adam and Eve's choice vs. ours it is clearly different. Adam and Eve did not require salvation until they sinned. So they added sin, and Jesus takes it all away. Since Jesus takes it ALL away, continuing to add more doesn't affect salvation.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

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#39

Post by BavarianWheels » Mon Nov 15, 2004 1:05 pm

Felgar wrote:First actually huans weren't created perfect. I believe the scriptures say 'It was good.'

Regarding Adam and Eve's choice vs. ours it is clearly different. Adam and Eve did not require salvation until they sinned. So they added sin, and Jesus takes it all away. Since Jesus takes it ALL away, continuing to add more doesn't affect salvation.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Another interesting concept.

So then what you are saying is that when God says something is "good"...it is in the sense of the quote that says,
Thomas Fuller wrote:Good is not good where better is expected.
When God says something is good...it means perfect as God is righteous and holy. Perfect beings with the ability of freewill...totally freewill.
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#40

Post by Felgar » Mon Nov 15, 2004 1:46 pm

God is perfect. Were Adam and Eve God's equal?

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#41

Post by BavarianWheels » Mon Nov 15, 2004 2:10 pm

Felgar wrote:God is perfect. Were Adam and Eve God's equal?
Hardly...however they were God's handi-work...and therefore perfect in every way.
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#42

Post by Anonymous » Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:00 pm

Hi all,

Personally I believe that I am once saved always saved. If I wasn't then I am crucifying Christ every time I come back to Him. I am pretty sure that one crucifixion was enough. However there is mention in previous posts that it is a difference between choosing and losing, I drifted way from the the Lord 11 years ago. It was a gradual process and not a conscious decision to reject Him. So I was always saved. Praise God for His wondrous mercy. All throughout the 10 years I was away from God I was still conscious of the Holy Spirit speaking to me, to my conscience if you like. Numerous times I broke down confessing all to God, promising to live the life. But I realised this year that I couldn't do it on my own strength so I asked the Lord to help me and give me the strength and I have not looked back since. Hallelujah!!!!!!

Mark :D

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#43

Post by BavarianWheels » Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:07 pm

markh wrote:Hi all,

Personally I believe that I am once saved always saved. If I wasn't then I am crucifying Christ every time I come back to Him. I am pretty sure that one crucifixion was enough. However there is mention in previous posts that it is a difference between choosing and losing, I drifted way from the the Lord 11 years ago. It was a gradual process and not a conscious decision to reject Him. So I was always saved. Praise God for His wondrous mercy. All throughout the 10 years I was away from God I was still conscious of the Holy Spirit speaking to me, to my conscience if you like. Numerous times I broke down confessing all to God, promising to live the life. But I realised this year that I couldn't do it on my own strength so I asked the Lord to help me and give me the strength and I have not looked back since. Hallelujah!!!!!!

Mark :D
Then why even "come back" if you are confident in your OSAS condition.

Why not continue in your life as it has been for the last few years? What do you have to confess if you are saved?
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#44

Post by Anonymous » Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:18 pm

I think I had lost my hunger to please God in my life. I wasn't giving Him my all as I should be trying to do every day. I want to hear Him say "Well done, thou good and faithful servant" when I come face to face with Him. I know I will still have to answer for everything I have done and I am now striving to be as faithful as I can.

Mark :D

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#45

Post by BavarianWheels » Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:22 pm

markh wrote:I think I had lost my hunger to please God in my life. I wasn't giving Him my all as I should be trying to do every day. I want to hear Him say "Well done, thou good and faithful servant" when I come face to face with Him. I know I will still have to answer for everything I have done and I am now striving to be as faithful as I can.

Mark :D
If you had continued in your new lifestyle, you assume that you would've been saved?
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