I'll convert to islam if you can show me.

[Anonymous]

Perhaps after I reply here we should clarify something.

The love from my God is Un-conditional. Regardless of my flaws, downfalls and/or shortcomings. Reason being is that He took the time to understand who I am. Jesus knows what it's like to be weak. To cry. To lose a loved one. To have friends abandon him. God knows what it's like;....to be human. And that is in the identity of Christ Jesus. Allah couldn't comprehend this because he never experienced what humans go through. Where as God (in the flesh) came off His throne to understand who I am. And to make all of my wrongs into right.

Surely you cannot believe that Allah who has created everything and measured out the measure from the beginning until forever doesn't know what He created?

39:67. They made not a just estimate of Allâh such as is due to Him. And on the Day of Resurrection the whole of the earth will be grasped by His Hand and the heavens will be rolled up in His Right Hand. Glorified is He, and High is He above all that they associate as partners with Him!

Are men more wise than Allah? If a chef were to bake a cake he would know how many eggs are in the cake. How much sugar. How much flour. How long to bake it for. How much more the creator of all creation, The Almighty, The All-Wise, The All-Knowing.

6:91. They (the Jews, Quraish pagans, idolaters, etc.) did not estimate Allâh with an estimation due to Him when they said: "Nothing did Allâh send down to any human being (by inspiration)." Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Who then sent down the Book which Mûsa (Moses) brought, a light and a guidance to mankind which you (the Jews) have made into (separate) papersheets, disclosing (some of it) and concealing (much). And you (believers in Allâh and His Messenger Muhammad SAW), were taught (through the Qur'ân) that which neither you nor your fathers knew." Say: "Allâh (sent it down)." Then leave them to play in their vain discussions.

Re-read them, keeping these two fundamental truths in mind:

Romans 5:8-9 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!

The message is not 'the sacrifice' but the message that he came with. It's in the scriptures as clear as day if you only knew.

Romans 3:22-24 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Meaning...Faith in Jesus as per what God had relayed to you in the scriptures. Not faith that he's God and he killed himself so that sinners could take this attitude..."A love so strong that he would go out of his way just to get my attention. A love so powerful that if I should turn my back on him; his love still remains."

You seem to be tearing verses from the Bible to make a patchwork quilt that you designed....

No no. These are the words in your book. There is no misunderstanding. I'm sure none of us want to end up in the fire. right? So it's in our best interests to gain an insight as to what's it all about.

24:44 He said to them, "These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and in the prophets and psalms must be fulfilled."
45 Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures.

kateliz

Perhaps we can defer a reply until we correct our understanding. So we need to see what was the theme that Jesus was repeating over and over?

Matt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

So what we have to nut out is what is the "Will of my Father in heaven"? (With texts from the OT that Jesus was referring to.)

A brief guide towards understanding Islam.

[kateliz]

Well, after all I wrote I'm pleased that although your response was short, it had enough weight in it to balance mine. I'm getting tired here, and will have to go to bed shortly, but I was waiting for a response and so having gotten one, I'll respond to it quickly, and get back to it later. I'm getting that you understand only some of what I wrote. We both think we are lacking understanding, and I say that is why we are hashing this out. Are you still saying that the Christian God does base entrance to heaven on works? If so, this you take from some scriptures including the one you mentioned. I say you are taking them out of context. If you take them out of context, I agree you'd come to a works-salvation message. There is a way to logically reconcile the verses you have on works-salvation and the ones that say Christ is all you truly need. However, obedience with Christians is different than obedience with everyone else. To obey the message of Jesus, to be obdedient to God's laws is to have faith, and that alone. Yes, without works. Having faith alone makes you obedient to the laws of God, and is essentially your works. Hear me out: faith, the Bible teaches, is the new form of obedience. Having faith in Christ you fulfill all the laws. I will dig out scripture later. Please feel free to respond before I fully present my case, or for someone else to do it for me.

[The edge]

John McArthur had a message on obedience recently.

Jesus said: Love God & Love Your Neighbours as yourself. On these 2 hangs all the laws.
What it means is that we'll fulfill all of God's laws if we can love God & love man. This we know, we can never accomplish totally. For this reason, we've fallen short of God's glory.
Our Father God knows us, our limitation. But needing to fulfill His Holy standard, he demands atonement for our sins. Yet knowing that our atonement will never be sufficient (how can a sinner atone from his or others sin), the only way is for the Perfect (Lamb) to perfrom the atonement & sacrifice - Christ.
Because of Christ, we're now reconcile to God. Good works would still be done, but with a different attitude. Not out of fear or obligation alone but most importantly out of love....a love that arises out of appreciation for Who God is & What He is willing to do for us.

When our children obey us because of love instead of fear or obligation, we know it's true love & true obedience


I used to put a quantification statement whenever people tells me that God is Love. I'll tell them that God is Righteous & Holy too....for fear that people think that God will not punish anyone out of Love.
But now, I understand the deeper meaning of Love. How could we still continue to sin or not live a life that leads towards God's standards if we truely Love Him & His creation (man). Out of our Love for God...holiness & righteouness will flow. As a result, no longer are we under a yoke to perform good works, but we're now free to perform it, as it pleases us to do it, for it pleases our Father in Heaven.


Yes, we know we've no right to demand that God be like this or like that for He is the creator & not us. Yet, isn't it wonderful that He chose to love us & call us His son rather than His slave?

Mohammed. Indeed you're very learned in both the Quran & Bible. I do urge that you meditate quietly in your heart & consider the path of Islam & Christianity. Be true to your heart. Once you open your heart to the bible, you'll very soon realise that those scriptures that you've quoted fall in place very nicely with a God that loves us & want to see us achieving our best potential.

If you still prefer to approach the Bible intellectually, I'll recommend that you use a good commentary to aid in the interpretation & reconcilation of the bible verses. Try Mathew Henry Commentaries. It's not the best or perfect (since it's written by man), but it's a very good start.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/

Thank you very much for your posting...for I've managed to learn much & obtain more resources from some of the responses.

[seedling]

The problem with both Islam and Christianity (and all the other man-made religions that seeks to define "God") is that you are defining the Creator by the images you have in your mind of what that Creator should be. Or you are taking the images that the men who wrote the Bible and the Qu'ran had in their minds. The benevolent judge. The empathizing one with unconditional love. The punisher. The rewarder. The comforter. Maybe the Creator just created ... he planted a seed that went off with a Big Bang and then took off to another dimension, only to return billions of years later to see what his seed grew into and produced.

[kateliz]

I refer you to a more relevant conversation already in progress where we've gone over some of the issues you've raised: http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... =7078#7078

[seedling]

Thank you kateliz. But my post was for this thread, as I do believe in a Creator, a Great Spirit, a Supreme Being, Allah, Yaweh, Jehovah, I AM THAT I AM, and whatever other names men have for ... Him. I do not question the Creator's existence.

[bizzt]

Thank you kateliz. But my post was for this thread, as I do believe in a Creator, a Great Spirit, a Supreme Being, Allah, Yaweh, Jehovah, I AM THAT I AM, and whatever other names men have for ... Him. I do not question the Creator's existence.

Are you a Deist then?

[seedling]

Are you a Deist then?

I'm not positive what you mean by this, but if you are asking if I believe in a Creator, in something greater than myself that created me and everything I see around me, the earth, seas, universe, etc. then yes, I guess I would be a deist as opposed to an atheist, as an atheist does not believe in an Intelligent Energy or Being that created all creation.

[bizzt]

Are you a Deist then?

I'm not positive what you mean by this, but if you are asking if I believe in a Creator, in something greater than myself that created me and everything I see around me, the earth, seas, universe, etc. then yes, I guess I would be a deist as opposed to an atheist, as an atheist does not believe in an Intelligent Energy or Being that created all creation.

A Deist as you said believes that an Intelligent Energy or Being created all Creation. So the Bible is but another book or is it inspired? Sorry for the questions I am just curious of your take on things!

[Poetic_Soul]

ok this your god my god stuff is cr*p!
It's one god!
Islam formed from the same line as christianity. (it was split from the israelites) Therefore it's the same god!
The only difference between the three religions who all believe in the same God is that the Islamic and Jewish religions understanding of god limits his power, and that is a contradiction of Almighty God.

God came as Jesus to show two split religions how to once again be one and find their way back to living in his grace. (they both fell from his path) He even provided a model on how this could be achieved.

Islam and Christianity do not have the same god. Before Allah came into affect Islam had about 360 pagan gods in the Kabah. Muhammad got rid of 359 of them and worshipped allah. To say that we have the same god is to say that we have the same relationship with God.


http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-polytheism.htm

[seedling]

Hi bizzt,

I used to believe every word of the bible was "God inspired." For over 20 years. Now I believe that it is a collection of men's writings who are searching for God, for the truth, for the reason for their being. We are alone on this earth, and it is a scary place. Man needs to believe in something more powerful than he that will care for him and protect him. He creates reasons for tragedies. "God" was not pleased. He creates reasons for war ... we are afraid of these people, they might wipe us
out, so "God" wants us to wipe them out first, they are evil. And he creates reasons for a good harvest ... God was pleased with us, we sacrificed spotless lambs and followed the law anc circumcised ourselves. Yet the bible says the rain falls on the good and bad alike. Man creates a God that meets his needs.

I believe the bible is a valuable book of human longing and human truths and human hope. It has helped me to understand myself and the world around me. It has comforted me. But I don't believe any "holy book" was "inspired" by God Himself. As much as we are his creation, you, me, every one on this board, and as much as the things we write to each other are "God inspired" because we were created by Him, that's how much I believe the Bible (or the Qu'ran, or any other spiritual guidebook) is God inspired. We are the same as them ... only we should have come further. Because Jesus said you will do greater things than this. I have only reached this conclusion quite recently, as I was discussing it with someone for quite a while ... and I took an honest look at myself and what I believed and what it truly meant to me, did alot of reading of books and reading on the internet, and came to this conclusion. Where it will lead me from here I don't know.

[Poetic_Soul]

Hi bizzt,

I used to believe every word of the bible was "God inspired." For over 20 years. Now I believe that it is a collection of men's writings who are searching for God, for the truth, for the reason for their being. We are alone on this earth, and it is a scary place. Man needs to believe in something more powerful than he that will care for him and protect him. He creates reasons for tragedies. "God" was not pleased. He creates reasons for war ... we are afraid of these people, they might wipe us
out, so "God" wants us to wipe them out first, they are evil. And he creates reasons for a good harvest ... God was pleased with us, we sacrificed spotless lambs and followed the law anc circumcised ourselves. Yet the bible says the rain falls on the good and bad alike. Man creates a God that meets his needs.

I believe the bible is a valuable book of human longing and human truths and human hope. It has helped me to understand myself and the world around me. It has comforted me. But I don't believe any "holy book" was "inspired" by God Himself. As much as we are his creation, you, me, every one on this board, and as much as the things we write to each other are "God inspired" because we were created by Him, that's how much I believe the Bible (or the Qu'ran, or any other spiritual guidebook) is God inspired. We are the same as them ... only we should have come further. Because Jesus said you will do greater things than this. I have only reached this conclusion quite recently, as I was discussing it with someone for quite a while ... and I took an honest look at myself and what I believed and what it truly meant to me, did alot of reading of books and reading on the internet, and came to this conclusion. Where it will lead me from here I don't know.

Are you saying that you don't believe in anything anymore as you once believed or are you saying you believe in God, not the bible.

[kateliz]

Please, state what you do believe about God.

[Mastermind]

Man, people today are afraid of war like it was Satan himself. I guess humanity has been getting weaker over the centuries.

[Prodigal Son]

muslims and christians do not have the same God for one simple reason: muslims reject Jesus as divine (God in the flesh) and say that he was "just a man". that is the greatest blasphemy. Jesus was divine and not knowing/accepting him is rejecting God or embracing a false God.

more on islam/muslims/muhammad:

http://answering-islam.org/Muhammad/index.html