Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

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RickD
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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#31

Post by RickD » Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:54 am

Lonnie,

You're not open to see the truth. It's plainly in front of you. If you say you are open, you will see. I'm praying that you will be willing to be open to the truth.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#32

Post by LonnieOwesn1973 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:02 am

DBowling wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:39 am
LonnieOwesn1973 wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:18 am
Matthew 2:8 no statement from Jesus stating he was God.
Wrong again...
Jesus is explicitly saying he is "Lord of the Sabbath"
Who is Lord of the Sabbath?
Lord is simply Lord, any theological student should already know that when speaking of God as Lord they distinguish it by LORD for God, Lord For Christ and lord for mankind... Try again on that one...
John 5: 23.. not there either
Wrong again...
Jesus is claiming that he is worthy of the same honor as the Father
And Jesus also points out that those who dishonor him are also dishonoring the Father
... you might want to think about that when you make posts that dishonor Jesus.

I haven't dishonored Jesus not one bit... look up honor in the dictionary it means to respect or to hold in high esteem and I do both..

John 8:58 was I am, talking about God not himself...
Wrong yet again...
Here is the context to show that Jesus is referring to himself as I AM
John 8:57-59
57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

if Jesus was God why would he hide himself and flee?
Oh... one more note of interest.
I AM is the linguistic basis for God's covenant name Yahweh.
So when Jesus referred to himself as I AM, he was equating himself with Yahweh.

And that's why the Jews wanted to stone Jesus.
Jesus was claiming to be Yahweh.

wrong again they wanted to stone him because he said he was the Son of God.. read the verse John 5:18...


Ok... Jesus received worship too...
(and as John 1:3 tells us, Jesus is our Creator too)
Matthew 14:32-33

Again Son of God not God Himself.

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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#33

Post by LonnieOwesn1973 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:08 am

RickD wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:54 am
Lonnie,

You're not open to see the truth. It's plainly in front of you. If you say you are open, you will see. I'm praying that you will be willing to be open to the truth.
it is plain to see that not one of you is open minded enough to help me understand your way of thinking....

I am being told I am wrong but yet not one of you have produced one single piece of scripture where Jesus has stated he was God on earth...

Not being mean ore closed minded but I will say this, when trying to convince someone of your beliefs should not entail berating them...

I think I may have said someone was wrong only after they have called me wrong... two wrongs do not make a right...

So, if a conversation is going to be onside it is not a conversation unless all parties are participating and being respectful of each others views... I am not being disrespectful, I am asking questions. I asked for one piece of scripture where Jesus made the statement that he was God...

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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#34

Post by DBowling » Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:13 am

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:02 am
DBowling wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:39 am
LonnieOwesn1973 wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:18 am
Matthew 12:8 no statement from Jesus stating he was God.
Wrong again...
Jesus is explicitly saying he is "Lord of the Sabbath"
Who is Lord of the Sabbath?
Lord is simply Lord, any theological student should already know that when speaking of God as Lord they distinguish it by LORD for God, Lord For Christ and lord for mankind... Try again on that one...
I'm afraid you are the one who needs to 'try again' on this one.
One more time...
Who is Lord of the Sabbath?
John 5: 23.. not there either
Wrong again...
Jesus is claiming that he is worthy of the same honor as the Father
And Jesus also points out that those who dishonor him are also dishonoring the Father
... you might want to think about that when you make posts that dishonor Jesus.
I haven't dishonored Jesus not one bit... look up honor in the dictionary it means to respect or to hold in high esteem and I do both..
Do you accept or deny that Jesus is God?
Do you accept or deny that Jesus is Creator?
Do you accept or deny that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath?
Do you accept or deny that Jesus is the Great I AM (Yahweh)?
Do you accept or deny that Jesus is worthy of worship?
Do you accept or deny that Jesus is worthy of the same honor as the Father?

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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#35

Post by LonnieOwesn1973 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:20 am

DBowling wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:13 am
LonnieOwesn1973 wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:02 am
DBowling wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:39 am
LonnieOwesn1973 wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:18 am
Matthew 12:8 no statement from Jesus stating he was God.
Wrong again...
Jesus is explicitly saying he is "Lord of the Sabbath"
Who is Lord of the Sabbath?
Lord is simply Lord, any theological student should already know that when speaking of God as Lord they distinguish it by LORD for God, Lord For Christ and lord for mankind... Try again on that one...
I'm afraid you are the one who needs to 'try again' on this one.
One more time...
Who is Lord of the Sabbath?
John 5: 23.. not there either
Wrong again...
Jesus is claiming that he is worthy of the same honor as the Father
And Jesus also points out that those who dishonor him are also dishonoring the Father
... you might want to think about that when you make posts that dishonor Jesus.
I haven't dishonored Jesus not one bit... look up honor in the dictionary it means to respect or to hold in high esteem and I do both..
Do you accept or deny that Jesus is God? Yes
Do you accept or deny that Jesus is Creator? No
Do you accept or deny that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath? No
Do you accept or deny that Jesus is the Great I AM (Yahweh)? yes
Do you accept or deny that Jesus is worthy of worship? no because Jesus stated "And Jesus said to him, go Satan, for it is written, thou shall worship the LORD thy God, and serve Him only.
Do you accept or deny that Jesus is worthy of the same honor as the Father? honor as in respect yes

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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#36

Post by LonnieOwesn1973 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:31 am

Jesus makes the distinction between himself and God by maintaining the LORD as referring to God and Lord referring to him... notice the all caps for God and only the capital L referring to himself... this does not constitute him referring to himself as God but one of authority when it comes to the work Of God...

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Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#37

Post by Philip » Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:35 am

Lonnie, how much clearer can Scripture be?

Jesus says, in John 10:30: "I and my Father are ONE." He is saying He is God, just as also the Father and the Holy Spirit are likewise God. Jesus did not need to use the phrase, "I am God" - as He has affirmed that in many other ways that are clear, in actions and words!

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

So, who was with God? The Word! Ah, but this Word also IS God. One person cannot be WITH himself.

Verse 14: And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son[d] from the Father, full of grace and truth.

So, this Word, whom verse 1 states was WITH and IS God, became flesh? WHO became flesh - what is the entire context about? JESUS became / took on flesh! JESUS is the Word, and verse 1 clearly states Him to be God AND that He was WITH God.

John, seeing Jesus, exclaimed, "“Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Who can forgive sins but God? Scripture states Jesus was sinless - and only GOD is sinless! Jesus accepted worship - unthinkable and a great sin if He was not God!

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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#38

Post by DBowling » Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:37 am

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:20 am
Do you accept or deny that Jesus is God? Yes
Do you accept or deny that Jesus is Creator? No
Do you accept or deny that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath? No
Do you accept or deny that Jesus is the Great I AM (Yahweh)? yes
Do you accept or deny that Jesus is worthy of worship? no because Jesus stated "And Jesus said to him, go Satan, for it is written, thou shall worship the LORD thy God, and serve Him only.
Do you accept or deny that Jesus is worthy of the same honor as the Father? honor as in respect yes
Ok... that's a bit vague.
I asked either/or questions and you answered with yes and no

Let's try this again
Let me ask them again as yes/no questions so I can understand your answers...

Do you accept that Jesus is God? (John 1:1)
Do you accept that Jesus is Creator? (John 1:3)
Do you accept that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath? (Matthew 12:8)
Do you accept that Jesus is the Great I AM (Yahweh)? (John 8:58)
Do you accept that Jesus is worthy of worship? (Matthew 14:33)
Do you accept that Jesus is worthy of the same honor as the Father? (John 5:23)

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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#39

Post by LonnieOwesn1973 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:40 am

DBowling wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:37 am
LonnieOwesn1973 wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:20 am
Do you accept or deny that Jesus is God? Yes
Do you accept or deny that Jesus is Creator? No
Do you accept or deny that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath? No
Do you accept or deny that Jesus is the Great I AM (Yahweh)? yes
Do you accept or deny that Jesus is worthy of worship? no because Jesus stated "And Jesus said to him, go Satan, for it is written, thou shall worship the LORD thy God, and serve Him only.
Do you accept or deny that Jesus is worthy of the same honor as the Father? honor as in respect yes
Ok... that's a bit vague.
I asked either/or questions and you answered with yes and no

Let's try this again
Let me ask them again as yes/no questions so I can understand your answers...

Do you deny that Jesus is God? (John 1:1)yes
Do you deny that Jesus is Creator? John 1:3)yes
Do you deny that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath? (Matthew 12:8) no
Do you deny that Jesus is the Great I AM (Yahweh)? (John 8:58)yes
Do you deny that Jesus is worthy of worship? (Matthew 14:33)yes, again I refer you to my previous answer as to why.
Do you deny that Jesus is worthy of the same honor as the Father? (John 5:23) yes just as I respect everyone...

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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#40

Post by LonnieOwesn1973 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:47 am

RickD wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:54 am
Lonnie,

You're not open to see the truth. It's plainly in front of you. If you say you are open, you will see. I'm praying that you will be willing to be open to the truth.
when yall are willing to try and understand why I think and believe how I do then we can have a conversation... not one of you have come out and said I can see where you are coming from and understand how it would be confusing and this is why I have not done the same because I see no sign of respect or understanding ans so I did not show the same... again I may be wrong for that and for that I apologize...

when you try to convince someone of a truth you do not chastise them just because they do not see things your way.

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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#41

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:47 am

To deny Jesus is God is to Deny John 1 and, perhaps the most explicit statements of all, Paul's:
Philippians 2:5–11
Colossians 1:15-20

Add to that the explicit statements that Jesus SAVES ( only God can save) and that Jesus forgives all sins ( only God can do that) and that Jesus is LORD, Savour and Judge ( only God is those).

Jesus being God is a statement of nature, equality of nature, NOT authority.
Jesus is NOT His Father nor is He the HS.
Jesus is God as His father is because they have the same nature.

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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#42

Post by RickD » Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:55 am

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:47 am
RickD wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:54 am
Lonnie,

You're not open to see the truth. It's plainly in front of you. If you say you are open, you will see. I'm praying that you will be willing to be open to the truth.
when yall are willing to try and understand why I think and believe how I do then we can have a conversation... not one of you have come out and said I can see where you are coming from and understand how it would be confusing and this is why I have not done the same because I see no sign of respect or understanding ans so I did not show the same... again I may be wrong for that and for that I apologize...

when you try to convince someone of a truth you do not chastise them just because they do not see things your way.
Lonnie,

You need to put your big boy pants on, and stop thinking that we're insulting you. You keep asserting that nobody has posted scripture where Jesus says he is God. Then we point out the scripture again, and even explain the meaning so you can understand. If you don't understand, ask specific questions like, "In John 1:1, why is the Word who was God, actually Jesus."
Then we can explain more to help you understand.

Just brushing aside the scripture without giving a reason why, does not make for a good discussion.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#43

Post by DBowling » Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:58 am

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:40 am
Do you deny that Jesus is God? (John 1:1)yes
Then you are denying what the Word of God says about Jesus in John 1:1
and you are dishonoring Jesus
Do you deny that Jesus is Creator? John 1:3)yes
Then you are denying what the Word of God says about Jesus in John 1:3
and you are dishonoring Jesus
Do you deny that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath? (Matthew 12:8) no
You got this one right
But you still haven't answered the question
Who is Lord of the Sabbath?
Do you deny that Jesus is the Great I AM (Yahweh)? (John 8:58)yes
Then you are denying what Jesus claimed about himself in John 8:58
And you are dishonoring Jesus
Do you deny that Jesus is worthy of worship? (Matthew 14:33)yes, again I refer you to my previous answer as to why.
Jesus told Satan
"thou shall worship the LORD thy God, and serve Him only."
And Jesus accepted worship in Matthew 14:33 (and on other occasions too)

If Jesus was willing to accept worship on a number of occasions what does that mean?
Jesus thought he was "the LORD thy God"
Do you deny that Jesus is worthy of the same honor as the Father? (John 5:23) yes just as I respect everyone...
If you deny that Jesus is worthy of the same honor as the Father
Then according to John 5:23 you are dishonoring Jesus

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Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#44

Post by Philip » Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:25 am

Lonnie, you've been given a lot to consider. My suggestion would be to ponder it, write down questions - but most importantly - you should ask God to reveal the truth of this matter about Jesus to you. God wants you to know the truth about it.
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Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#45

Post by LonnieOwesn1973 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:15 am

Philip wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:25 am
Lonnie, you've been given a lot to consider. My suggestion would be to ponder it, write down questions - but most importantly - you should ask God to reveal the truth of this matter about Jesus to you. God wants you to know the truth about it.
so I take it no one is willing to even consider where I am coming from from what was shown to me...

Jesus never thought he was God because if he did he would not refer to God as his God and his Father...

Furthermore John 5:23 pertains to Respect not worship... I respect Christ and thank him daily for his sacrifice... but nowhere does Jesus speak to worshiping him, that would be an assumption...

John 4:22-24 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. 24 God is [a]spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.

since the Jews did not believe Jesus was God and Jesus said "We worship" then if Jesus believed he was God then how could he worship himself?

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