Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

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Philip
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Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#181

Post by Philip » Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:17 pm

Lonnie, for all of your focus on Jesus being the Son of God, what are you to make of the Isaiah passage Paul quoted?

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

Do you know of another child, whom is also a "son," that has been born and that the Bible has assigned the title of "Mighty God???" Who is also eternal ("Everlasting Father)?

And the following verse:

"There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness. From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this."

And that descended from the throne of David - and once again, this child will have an ETERNAL ("forevermore") Kingdom!

Any candidates, Lon? The Bible predicts a human son to be born that will also be Mighty God and have an eternal kingdom - what do you make of this? This totally refutes the belief that the Son of God can't also be God as well!

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Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#182

Post by RickD » Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:20 pm

Philip wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:17 pm
Lonnie, for all of your focus on Jesus being the Son of God, what are you to make of the Isaiah passage Paul quoted?

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

Do you know of another child, whom is also a "son," that has been born and that the Bible has assigned the title of "Mighty God???" Who is also eternal ("Everlasting Father)?

And the following verse:

"There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness. From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this."

And that descended from the throne of David - and once again, this child will have an ETERNAL ("forevermore") Kingdom!

Any candidates, Lon? The Bible predicts a human son to be born that will also be Mighty God and have an eternal kingdom - what do you make of this? This totally refutes the belief that the Son of God can't also be God as well!
Face it philip,

Jesus Christ himself, could tell Lonnie, "I am God", and Lonnie would tell Jesus that he really means God with a small g, and he's just an important person.

Lonnie claims to take scripture at what it says, but in reality, he tries to make scripture fit his theology.

But FWIW,

This one passage that you posted, puts the nail in the "Jesus is not God" coffin.

Let's see how Lonnie dismisses this passage.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#183

Post by RickD » Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:58 pm

I don't think I've seen the doubting Thomas verses brought up yet:
28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus *said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”
Thomas called Jesus, "My Lord and my God."

And did Jesus correct Thomas, and tell him that he's not God?

So, either Jesus is God, or Jesus is a raving, egomaniacal lunatic.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#184

Post by RickD » Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:02 pm

Or Hebrews 1:8:
8 But of the Son He says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
God the Father, calls the Son, "God".

How much clearer can that be?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#185

Post by RickD » Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:12 pm

Lonnie,


Is Jesus being judgemental when he says the following in John 8:24?
24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
Unless you believe Jesus is I AM, you are lost in your sins. Are you mad at Jesus for offending you?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#186

Post by LonnieOwesn1973 » Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:09 am

proskynēsantes having worshiped

prosekynēsan they worshiped
proskuneó worship
These are all forms of paying homage which is paying respect or high esteem. When you see-worship it is mere;y the English translation of the above words.

If the people who were to worship Jesus as if he were God they would use the latrevótan is the context alternative which meant that they would have regarded him as God, YHWH or Jehova...

Honor or timōsi Means to prize, i.e. Fix a valuation upon; by implication, to revere -- honour, value.
In John 5:23 would mean revere which is to have deep respect for or admire something or someone.

As for John 1:2... There is nothing in scripture that states that Jesus in name was God because the word “with” does not mean that he was God it means he was with God which would place him squarely in the position of an angel.
Before God created the heavens and the earth he created the Angels, so in Genesis 1:26 would would clearly be speaking to the Angels but then in the very next verse it is said that He created in his own image... and since he created the angels and they were in His image then when he created Man it would be the same thin... this is just using the Bible and no other sources...

In order to understand the Bible you must utilize everything in the Bible not pick and choose what fits your beliefs... after going over the Greek and Hebrew translations, there is no way that the ancient Jews would have considered God a Triune God..........

So I ask, how can God die?
John 10:18 No one has taken it away from Me, because I lay it down on My own initiative, I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.
Again no statement of him being God at all, because if he were God or even a part of God on earth, as is believed in the Holy Trinity, then he would not need permission nor a commandment from himself.
John 17:5 And now, glorify Thou Me together with Thyself, Father, with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was.
I can go on and on with supporting scripture to where Jesus never one alluded to the fact that he was God or part of a Holy Trinity...
if Jesus was God then how can we do greater things than God?
John 14:12 Truly, truly, I say unto you, he who believes in Me, the works I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go to the Father.
That statement alone destroys the notion that Jesus thought of himself as God ..

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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#187

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:16 am

You do know that Jesus isn't dead, right?
When you ask how can God die, it implies that you don't understand what actually happened on the cross, much less the resurrection.

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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#188

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:17 am

Ask you again, if Jesus is not God, what is he ??

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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#189

Post by LonnieOwesn1973 » Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:37 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:16 am
You do know that Jesus isn't dead, right?
When you ask how can God die, it implies that you don't understand what actually happened on the cross, much less the resurrection.
it is clear that no one actually reads my posts.... when we die only our physical bodies die as did the physical body of Christ... and when you give up the Ghost your physical body is dead because it has no spirit in it any longer... and the whole belief is that Jesus died on the cross for our sins... so either the belief systems is wrong that he Died on the cross or the apostles were pulling our legs... please read the post... Jesus said he lays down his life for us... laying down ones life means he is willing to die for us...and what else does Jesus say, Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends.

So if God is immortal how can he Die?

Then we would revert back to it only being his mortal body that died which would mean that it was a living thing.

Jesus was a mortal Man, the messenger of God, in who God gave his grace...

Seriously does no one actually read the Bible??

Mark 10:18 and Jesus said unto him, " Why do you call Me good? no one is good except God alone."

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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#190

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:01 am

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:37 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:16 am
You do know that Jesus isn't dead, right?
When you ask how can God die, it implies that you don't understand what actually happened on the cross, much less the resurrection.
it is clear that no one actually reads my posts.... when we die only our physical bodies die as did the physical body of Christ... and when you give up the Ghost your physical body is dead because it has no spirit in it any longer... and the whole belief is that Jesus died on the cross for our sins... so either the belief systems is wrong that he Died on the cross or the apostles were pulling our legs... please read the post... Jesus said he lays down his life for us... laying down ones life means he is willing to die for us...and what else does Jesus say, Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends.

So if God is immortal how can he Die?

Then we would revert back to it only being his mortal body that died which would mean that it was a living thing.

Jesus was a mortal Man, the messenger of God, in who God gave his grace...

Seriously does no one actually read the Bible??

Mark 10:18 and Jesus said unto him, " Why do you call Me good? no one is good except God alone."
So, according to what you just WROTE:
Jesus was a mortal man.
That's your view of Jesus then?

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Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#191

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:04 am

Jesus say, Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends.
A fair quote.
And since God IS love then how do you explain that, in Jesus laying down His life for His friends, He is showing GREATER love than God since, of course, God has NEVER laid down HIS life for His friends.
That would make Jesus greater than God !

But He can't be because He was ONLY a Mortal Man.
NOT Divine.
NOT God.
Just Mortal Man.

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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#192

Post by LonnieOwesn1973 » Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:08 am

like I said... no one actually reads my posts... lol....
Do I believe Jesus was God? No
Do I believe that Jesus was sent By God to save the world as our redeemer for our sins? yes
DO I believe that he Lived and Died and was resurrected? Yes

so I ask you if Jesus was God then how can we do greater things that God?
John 14:12 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.

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Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#193

Post by LonnieOwesn1973 » Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:10 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:04 am
Jesus say, Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends.
A fair quote.
And since God IS love then how do you explain that, in Jesus laying down His life for His friends, He is showing GREATER love than God since, of course, God has NEVER laid down HIS life for His friends.
That would make Jesus greater than God !

But He can't be because He was ONLY a Mortal Man.
NOT Divine.
NOT God.
Just Mortal Man.
lol it means that the greatest love a man can show another man is to die for him...

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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#194

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:13 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSQDov6NNp0

Its a short video and maybe it can help you.

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Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#195

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:13 am

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:10 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:04 am
Jesus say, Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends.
A fair quote.
And since God IS love then how do you explain that, in Jesus laying down His life for His friends, He is showing GREATER love than God since, of course, God has NEVER laid down HIS life for His friends.
That would make Jesus greater than God !

But He can't be because He was ONLY a Mortal Man.
NOT Divine.
NOT God.
Just Mortal Man.
lol it means that the greatest love a man can show another man is to die for him...
Man can show greater love than God ???
Dude...

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