Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

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RickD
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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#211

Post by RickD » Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:40 am

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:32 am
RickD wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:18 am
LonnieOwesn1973 wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:33 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:04 am
LonnieOwesn1973 wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:42 am
I am going to go back a little bit because, in a conversation with my aunt, My aunt told me that I would speak to Jesus as if he were God in my younger days... But I am taking this at face value because I have no memory of my childhood at all for 1981 back...

My questions are simple, How can Man do greater things than God?
How can God die?
Why would God talk to himself?
simple questions that no one has answered....

the prophecy you speak of said the child's name would be Immanuel but yet an angel of the Lord said to call him Jesus?
OK:
How can God die?
Jesus was God Incarnate ( And the Word became Flesh) and it was the flesh that died ( mortal form), His divine nature IS eternal.
Why would God talk to himself?
Jesus spoke to His Father and, while I am sure there were times He "talked to Himself" like we all do, Jesus talking to His father is not Him talking to Himself anymore than when You speak to YOUR Dad, you are talking to yourself.
Good try on the first 2 but if the flesh died then it couldn't have been God dying because, popular belief is, Jesus died for our sins. So if Jesus is God and God cannot die, then Jesus did not die for our sins only his flesh died. Which would,mean that Jesus was not God at all only the messenger of God...

And I see you avoided my last question entirely...

How can man do greater things than God? If Jesus was God in the flesh?
Lonnie,

This link explains how If Jesus is God, how can He, as God, die?

If you have questions, ask. Don't assume. If you don't understand and need clarification, don't just brush it aside. Your lack of understanding, doesn't mean it's wrong.
Lack of understanding???? Talk about shallow... If you cannot explain how God can die theb why should I go look at someone else's work??? I am asking you now whoever wrote it...

The thing is I actually do take into account everything being presented... You are attacking because you cannot answer the questions being presented to you...

I'll give you an easier question then...

How can man do greater things than God???

Should be easy as long as you can find someone else to explain it for you... Just saying....
Lonnie,

The Trinity, and the nature of Jesus Christ, isn't an easy topic to understand, for many people. Everyone I've talked to has a hard time grasping it, including myself. It wasn't meant as an insult. A lot of people give up on understanding, because it's not easy to grasp.

Edit:
Explaining John 14:12 Jesus probably meant greater in number, not greater in how stupendous they are.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#212

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:06 am

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:34 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:09 am
So, you are actually going OUT OF YOUR WAY, to not understand.
Where in scripture does it say anything OTHER than Jesus died for Our Sins?

Are your having that hard of a time understanding that saying Jesus is GOD is a statement of Jesus' nature ??

Please answer this:

If Jesus is NOT God, then WHAT IS He?
Going out of my way??? I am quoting from memory... Don't have to go put of my way...

Like I did for Rick I will give you a simple one..

How can man do greater things than God?

Should be easily explained...
Sure,
Please ask the question I have asked a few times already:
If Jesus is NOT God, WHAT is He ??

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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#213

Post by LonnieOwesn1973 » Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:28 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:06 am
LonnieOwesn1973 wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:34 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:09 am
So, you are actually going OUT OF YOUR WAY, to not understand.
Where in scripture does it say anything OTHER than Jesus died for Our Sins?

Are your having that hard of a time understanding that saying Jesus is GOD is a statement of Jesus' nature ??

Please answer this:

If Jesus is NOT God, then WHAT IS He?
Going out of my way??? I am quoting from memory... Don't have to go put of my way...

Like I did for Rick I will give you a simple one..

How can man do greater things than God?

Should be easily explained...
Sure,
Please ask the question I have asked a few times already:
If Jesus is NOT God, WHAT is He ??
Already answered your... actually a couple times in fact.... would help if you read the posts

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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#214

Post by LonnieOwesn1973 » Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:45 am

RickD wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:40 am
LonnieOwesn1973 wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:32 am
RickD wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:18 am
LonnieOwesn1973 wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:33 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:04 am


OK:
How can God die?
Jesus was God Incarnate ( And the Word became Flesh) and it was the flesh that died ( mortal form), His divine nature IS eternal.
Why would God talk to himself?
Jesus spoke to His Father and, while I am sure there were times He "talked to Himself" like we all do, Jesus talking to His father is not Him talking to Himself anymore than when You speak to YOUR Dad, you are talking to yourself.
Good try on the first 2 but if the flesh died then it couldn't have been God dying because, popular belief is, Jesus died for our sins. So if Jesus is God and God cannot die, then Jesus did not die for our sins only his flesh died. Which would,mean that Jesus was not God at all only the messenger of God...

And I see you avoided my last question entirely...

How can man do greater things than God? If Jesus was God in the flesh?
Lonnie,

This link explains how If Jesus is God, how can He, as God, die?

If you have questions, ask. Don't assume. If you don't understand and need clarification, don't just brush it aside. Your lack of understanding, doesn't mean it's wrong.
Lack of understanding???? Talk about shallow... If you cannot explain how God can die theb why should I go look at someone else's work??? I am asking you now whoever wrote it...

The thing is I actually do take into account everything being presented... You are attacking because you cannot answer the questions being presented to you...

I'll give you an easier question then...

How can man do greater things than God???

Should be easy as long as you can find someone else to explain it for you... Just saying....
Lonnie,

The Trinity, and the nature of Jesus Christ, isn't an easy topic to understand, for many people. Everyone I've talked to has a hard time grasping it, including myself. It wasn't meant as an insult. A lot of people give up on understanding, because it's not easy to grasp.

Edit:
Explaining John 14:12 Jesus probably meant greater in number, not greater in how stupendous they are.
Probably meant???.... that is a hypothesis not an answer....

and it is an easy topic to understand once you grasp it... If I Jesus was God then the believer can state, with out a doubt, all scriptures that prove their beliefs... If a believer is struggling with answering a simple question then there is no full belief in a doctrine because you have doubts....
Matthew 21:21 And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen.

If you believed in the Trinity then you would be able to answer the questions at hand... You cannot fully believe if you still have Doubts... This is why I will not commit myself to a docrtine that I cannot prove...

1. no one can prove that Jesus an God are the same.
2. no one can prove, by scripture, Jesus is the God of Genesis.
3. Jesus never accepted worship, in a religious manner, from anyone.
4. no one can prove that God died on the cross.

and furthermore, Jesus refers to himself as the Son of Man and the Son of God always, so what is the one sin that cannot be forgiven?
Matthew 12:31 "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.
Matthew 21:32 "Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come."

if Jesus being the Son of Man, and you can blaspheme against him, then how how does that explain the Holy Trinity... not even the word God is in the Verse but is implied by Holy Spirit because that was one of the many names used before they settled on YHWH and the word God.. God told Moses to tell the people "I am, that I am." so why do we not just use his exact address in which he instructed Moses to tell the people?

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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#215

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:51 am

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:28 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:06 am
LonnieOwesn1973 wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:34 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:09 am
So, you are actually going OUT OF YOUR WAY, to not understand.
Where in scripture does it say anything OTHER than Jesus died for Our Sins?

Are your having that hard of a time understanding that saying Jesus is GOD is a statement of Jesus' nature ??

Please answer this:

If Jesus is NOT God, then WHAT IS He?
Going out of my way??? I am quoting from memory... Don't have to go put of my way...

Like I did for Rick I will give you a simple one..

How can man do greater things than God?

Should be easily explained...
Sure,
Please ask the question I have asked a few times already:
If Jesus is NOT God, WHAT is He ??
Already answered your... actually a couple times in fact.... would help if you read the posts
You answered Son of God, that is WHO he is.
I am asking WHAT He is.
You also have failed to address where you call Jesus a mortal, care to clear that up?

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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#216

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:55 am

John 14:12, in Context:
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/arti ... ngs-jesus/

Or quite simply:
I Am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life
14 “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God;[a] believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. 4 And you know the way to where I am going.”[c] 5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also.[d] From now on you do know him and have seen him.”

8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.

12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask me[e] anything in my name, I will do it.


As you can see here, Jesus is the one that DOES what those doing great deeds ASK HIM to do.

The WHOLE passage make sit clear and obvious that those that will do great works then Jesus did when he was ministering, will do them BECAUSE Jesus does it for them.


AGAIN:
12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask me[e] anything in my name, I will do it.

Disciples ASK Jesus and Jesus DOES the great works.

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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#217

Post by LonnieOwesn1973 » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:02 pm

not at all... nice try though.... still reciting what you were taught... good loyalty but not at all accurate... It seems you have left out a bunch that needs to be addressed... for one having the Father in Him never made him God it made him part of God because he accepted God's authority over him... just like if we accept Gods authority over us then God grants his Spirit to come into us... I am my father are one... sorry nice try though.... you have to do better than that.
Last edited by LonnieOwesn1973 on Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#218

Post by LonnieOwesn1973 » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:04 pm

so tell me if God has no equals then explain Jesus?
Last edited by LonnieOwesn1973 on Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#219

Post by LonnieOwesn1973 » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:13 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:47 am
To deny Jesus is God is to Deny John 1 and, perhaps the most explicit statements of all, Paul's:
Philippians 2:5–11
Colossians 1:15-20

Add to that the explicit statements that Jesus SAVES ( only God can save) and that Jesus forgives all sins ( only God can do that) and that Jesus is LORD, Savour and Judge ( only God is those).

Jesus being God is a statement of nature, equality of nature, NOT authority.
Jesus is NOT His Father nor is He the HS.

Jesus is God as His father is because they have the same nature.
Interesting because in order to be a trinity it has to be three as a whole... if Jesus is not his Father "God" or the Holy Spirit "God" then what is he in the grand scheme of things...

God has no equals, remember???

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Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#220

Post by LonnieOwesn1973 » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:20 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:14 pm
LonnieOwesn1973 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:06 pm
LonnieOwesn1973 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:36 am
Scripture is one thing but no one has given anything other than that...
ok The if Jesus was God then explain why Jesus would ask himself why he had forsaken himself???
Because Jesus was NOT HIS FATHER.
Just to get the other things out of the way....

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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#221

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:24 pm

WOW, talk about refuting your own arguments.
Dude.
It is obvious that you are disregarding everything we are saying.

NO ONE is saying that Jesus IS His Father, We are saying they BOTH have the same Nature and that is what is explicitly state din the NT.
For example:
Colossians 1:
The Preeminence of Christ
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by[f] him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

Now, I ask you, is Paul wrong?
He states, explicitly that:
Jesus is the image of God and that, in Jesus, the fullness of God dwells.
The image of GOD and the fullness of GOD.

Is Paul Wrong ??
Yes or no ?

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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#222

Post by LonnieOwesn1973 » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:28 pm

Mark 10:45 “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#223

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:29 pm

And of course:
Phlippians 2:
Christ's Example of Humility
2 So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, 2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. 3 Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. 4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,[a] 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant,[c] being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#224

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:30 pm

SO I ask you again, IS PAUL WRONG ?

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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#225

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:33 pm

Comes down to this:
Paul says Jesus is God
John says Jesus is God
Jesus says that He is Yahweh ( I AM ).

Are they wrong?
If Jesus is not God, WHAT is He?

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