Is salvation Given or is it earned?

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
LonnieOwesn1973
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Is salvation Given or is it earned?

#1

Post by LonnieOwesn1973 » Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:51 am

Most would have you think that Salvation is Given and not earned and I would have to say that there is no scripture that gives this assertion...

First of all, to be a Christian is to be a follower of Christ and his Doctrine. The life of Christ is our guide to true salvation because without it we would not be able to please God nor would we know what salvation was all about.

Being born again is not just getting down on your knees and accepting Christ, being born again means that, once you have accepted Christ, you will change your life and live according to his doctrine. If you accept Christ into your life but continue in your old life then you have not understood what it means to be born again.

A baby is born, in the flesh, only one time and is a clean slate and so as a Christian, being born again we are born with a clean slate in the presence of God and in His service. We give ourselves to His mercy and His authority to be completely obedient to Him until our mortal death.

If our lives does not reflect our beliefs then we are not truly saved because we have not given ourselves to God completely.

Salvation comes from the keeping of the 10 commandments, unshakeable faith in God, the changing of our lives to reflect our faith in God, complete and total obedience to God and Love.

Now you are probably thinking that we are not justified by the works of the law and this is correct because if you have to make an effort to keep the commandments then you have not fully understood them or accepted them.

The commandments are morally correct and justifiable. our faith establishes the law the law does not establish our faith.

Romans 3:31 " Do we make void the law through faith? God forbid, yea, we establish the law."

So at what point do we draw the line when it comes to being obedient to God?

Most would have you think that the line was drawn when Jesus died and was resurrected and other would have you believe that it was the teachings of Paul.

Neither are correct because there is no evidence anywhere in scripture to support this train of thought or belief.

We can keep 9 of the commandments, and teach them, but that 10th one seems to be the one tat the vast majority ignores and point to the teachings of Paul to back up the belief.

Jesus said to break the least one of the commandments is to break them all.

It is not the letter of the Law that saves us it is the performance of the Law that grants us salvation because it is the Word of God to which he placed within us so how could we be free from the law when it becomes part of us upon our rebirth?

The entire debate is not about the validity of the law, because everyone already knows it is valid they just find excuses not to follow it. It is about who is right and who is wrong and that should never be an issue because that is considered division in faith. We should all be of one mind and one mouth when it comes to the word of God and our Faith.

I have gone on long enough with this and yes I could go further but I will wait for the comments and questions to continue down this road...

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Re: Is salvation Given or is it earned?

#2

Post by DBowling » Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:40 am

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:51 am
Most would have you think that Salvation is Given and not earned and I would have to say that there is no scripture that gives this assertion...
That's an easy one.
Here you go.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
As I said in another post...
Your real disagreement is with Scripture.

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Re: Is salvation Given or is it earned?

#3

Post by LonnieOwesn1973 » Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:40 am

DBowling wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:40 am
LonnieOwesn1973 wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:51 am
Most would have you think that Salvation is Given and not earned and I would have to say that there is no scripture that gives this assertion...
That's an easy one.
Here you go.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
As I said in another post...
Your real disagreement is with Scripture.
actually my disagreement is not with scripture but I do accept your thoughts on it... But a gift can be taken away just as easy as it is Given if it is given with the receiving party has neglected his commitment to the agreement between him and God.... if you continue to sin after recieving the truth then there is no more sacrifice for sin...

when you sit and tell God you wil change and do not do it then what is your reward??? you have no reward because you did not honor your end of the bargain...

in order to gain salvation you must be born again and commit yourself, body and soul, to the service of God and submit to his authority....

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Re: Is salvation Given or is it earned?

#4

Post by RickD » Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:43 am

Another works for salvation adherent.

This heresy is glaring:
Most would have you think that Salvation is Given and not earned and I would have to say that there is no scripture that gives this assertion...
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Is salvation Given or is it earned?

#5

Post by LonnieOwesn1973 » Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:37 am

RickD wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:43 am
Another works for salvation adherent.

This heresy is glaring:
Most would have you think that Salvation is Given and not earned and I would have to say that there is no scripture that gives this assertion...
no actually it is not heresy lol it is fact... over the years the one belief that I have heard is that you don't have to do anything to get salvation but accept Christ but scripture doesn't support that belief at all...

Faith without works is dead so if we are to live by faith alone there we will have no salvation because what is faith without the works of your faith???

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also...

not cherry picking heresy would be stating something that cannot be proven in the Bible like the sabbath day being moved from Saturday to sunday... now that is heresy.

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Re: Is salvation Given or is it earned?

#6

Post by RickD » Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:53 am

Lonnie wrote:
no actually it is not heresy lol it is fact... over the years the one belief that I have heard is that you don't have to do anything to get salvation but accept Christ but scripture doesn't support that belief at all...
John 3:16 says that if one trusts in Christ, one has eternal life.
Faith without works is dead so if we are to live by faith alone there we will have no salvation because what is faith without the works of your faith???
God saved us to do good works. He didn't save us because of our good works.
Ephesians 2:10
not cherry picking heresy would be stating something that cannot be proven in the Bible like the sabbath day being moved from Saturday to sunday... now that is heresy.
That's irrelevant. I've never claimed that the sabbath was moved. The OT sabbath pointed forward to Christ, who is our sabbath rest.

Anyone who attempts to hold to OT sabbath laws, is denying Christ.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Is salvation Given or is it earned?

#7

Post by LonnieOwesn1973 » Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:31 am

RickD wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:53 am
Lonnie wrote:
no actually it is not heresy lol it is fact... over the years the one belief that I have heard is that you don't have to do anything to get salvation but accept Christ but scripture doesn't support that belief at all...
John 3:16 says that if one trusts in Christ, one has eternal life.
Faith without works is dead so if we are to live by faith alone there we will have no salvation because what is faith without the works of your faith???
God saved us to do good works. He didn't save us because of our good works.
Ephesians 2:10
not cherry picking heresy would be stating something that cannot be proven in the Bible like the sabbath day being moved from Saturday to sunday... now that is heresy.
That's irrelevant. I've never claimed that the sabbath was moved. The OT sabbath pointed forward to Christ, who is our sabbath rest.

Anyone who attempts to hold to OT sabbath laws, is denying Christ.
To say that we are not to keep the OT sabbath law is to deny the Life of Christ... Christ was the embodiment of the Law therefore if you want to get technical his death would be the the breaking of the bounds of sin and the rebirth of the commandments that he embodied..

Like I said Christ said "If ye love me ye will keep my commandments"

Christ was our example on how we are to live bot our release from the Law of God.

and I never said you said the sabbath was moved I was merely giving an example and I should have clarified this in my statement and for that I apologize.

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Re: Is salvation Given or is it earned?

#8

Post by RickD » Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:42 am

LonnieOwes wrote:
Like I said Christ said "If ye love me ye will keep my commandments"
Do you keep all of these 613 Old Testament commandments?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Is salvation Given or is it earned?

#9

Post by LonnieOwesn1973 » Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:03 pm

RickD wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:42 am
LonnieOwes wrote:
Like I said Christ said "If ye love me ye will keep my commandments"
Do you keep all of these 613 Old Testament commandments?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments
Jesus Kept the 10 commandments and quoted the ones that were outside the already adhered to, as did the Apostles...Those are the ones Jesus stressed most... Why non Jewish people think the 10 commandments are hard to keep is beyond me..

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Re: Is salvation Given or is it earned?

#10

Post by RickD » Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:11 pm

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:03 pm
RickD wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:42 am
LonnieOwes wrote:
Like I said Christ said "If ye love me ye will keep my commandments"
Do you keep all of these 613 Old Testament commandments?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments
Jesus Kept the 10 commandments and quoted the ones that were outside the already adhered to, as did the Apostles...Those are the ones Jesus stressed most... Why non Jewish people think the 10 commandments are hard to keep is beyond me..
So, you've kept all 10 commandments, perfectly?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Is salvation Given or is it earned?

#11

Post by LonnieOwesn1973 » Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:31 pm

RickD wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:11 pm
LonnieOwesn1973 wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:03 pm
RickD wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:42 am
LonnieOwes wrote:
Like I said Christ said "If ye love me ye will keep my commandments"
Do you keep all of these 613 Old Testament commandments?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments
Jesus Kept the 10 commandments and quoted the ones that were outside the already adhered to, as did the Apostles...Those are the ones Jesus stressed most... Why non Jewish people think the 10 commandments are hard to keep is beyond me..
So, you've kept all 10 commandments, perfectly?
Let's check the commandments
I have only one God, no Idols, Keep the sabbath day, no killing, no stealing, no lying, no adultery ( I am given one woman whom I love dearly there is no lust in my heart or mind for another), I do not want what others have because I am happy with what I have already, if I see something I would like I get it.. I honor my parents to this day even though they have passed.

The key to keeping the commandments is simple, be honest and Love the one you are with, the rest of the commandments are as easy as pie because we already know there is only one God...

I found that once I had stopped looking at other women the way I look at my wife the rest fall into place... Once I came to terms that I am only getting what God wants me to have at the time, I no longer wanted what everyone else had because God gave me what I needed.

I speak the truth no matter the cost if it hurts someones feelings but it is the truth then there is no harm in that...

People make a big deal on the commandments God placed in our hearts when the simplest thing to do is Love One another and it will all fall into place.. If you love everyone then how much harder would it be to tell Satan to get out of my life???

He will do his best to try and get you to disobey God but in the end if your faith is strong with God then the fires of Hell could never touch you... All it takes is a little faith in order to start building a stronger relationship with God...

Like Jesus said " Love thy neighbor as thy self."

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Re: Is salvation Given or is it earned?

#12

Post by RickD » Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:45 pm

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:31 pm
RickD wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:11 pm
LonnieOwesn1973 wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:03 pm
RickD wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:42 am
LonnieOwes wrote:
Like I said Christ said "If ye love me ye will keep my commandments"
Do you keep all of these 613 Old Testament commandments?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments
Jesus Kept the 10 commandments and quoted the ones that were outside the already adhered to, as did the Apostles...Those are the ones Jesus stressed most... Why non Jewish people think the 10 commandments are hard to keep is beyond me..
So, you've kept all 10 commandments, perfectly?
Let's check the commandments
I have only one God, no Idols, Keep the sabbath day, no killing, no stealing, no lying, no adultery ( I am given one woman whom I love dearly there is no lust in my heart or mind for another), I do not want what others have because I am happy with what I have already, if I see something I would like I get it.. I honor my parents to this day even though they have passed.

The key to keeping the commandments is simple, be honest and Love the one you are with, the rest of the commandments are as easy as pie because we already know there is only one God...

I found that once I had stopped looking at other women the way I look at my wife the rest fall into place... Once I came to terms that I am only getting what God wants me to have at the time, I no longer wanted what everyone else had because God gave me what I needed.

I speak the truth no matter the cost if it hurts someones feelings but it is the truth then there is no harm in that...

People make a big deal on the commandments God placed in our hearts when the simplest thing to do is Love One another and it will all fall into place.. If you love everyone then how much harder would it be to tell Satan to get out of my life???

He will do his best to try and get you to disobey God but in the end if your faith is strong with God then the fires of Hell could never touch you... All it takes is a little faith in order to start building a stronger relationship with God...

Like Jesus said " Love thy neighbor as thy self."
So, you've never stolen anything?

You've never looked at a women with lust?

You've always put God above yourself?

You've always observed the sabbath, exactly how it was instituted by God?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Is salvation Given or is it earned?

#13

Post by LonnieOwesn1973 » Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:55 pm

RickD wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:45 pm
LonnieOwesn1973 wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:31 pm
RickD wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:11 pm
LonnieOwesn1973 wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:03 pm
RickD wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:42 am

Do you keep all of these 613 Old Testament commandments?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments
Jesus Kept the 10 commandments and quoted the ones that were outside the already adhered to, as did the Apostles...Those are the ones Jesus stressed most... Why non Jewish people think the 10 commandments are hard to keep is beyond me..
So, you've kept all 10 commandments, perfectly?
Let's check the commandments
I have only one God, no Idols, Keep the sabbath day, no killing, no stealing, no lying, no adultery ( I am given one woman whom I love dearly there is no lust in my heart or mind for another), I do not want what others have because I am happy with what I have already, if I see something I would like I get it.. I honor my parents to this day even though they have passed.

The key to keeping the commandments is simple, be honest and Love the one you are with, the rest of the commandments are as easy as pie because we already know there is only one God...

I found that once I had stopped looking at other women the way I look at my wife the rest fall into place... Once I came to terms that I am only getting what God wants me to have at the time, I no longer wanted what everyone else had because God gave me what I needed.

I speak the truth no matter the cost if it hurts someones feelings but it is the truth then there is no harm in that...

People make a big deal on the commandments God placed in our hearts when the simplest thing to do is Love One another and it will all fall into place.. If you love everyone then how much harder would it be to tell Satan to get out of my life???

He will do his best to try and get you to disobey God but in the end if your faith is strong with God then the fires of Hell could never touch you... All it takes is a little faith in order to start building a stronger relationship with God...

Like Jesus said " Love thy neighbor as thy self."
So, you've never stolen anything?

You've never looked at a women with lust?

You've always put God above yourself?

You've always observed the sabbath, exactly how it was instituted by God?
Once you are born again into Christ all your sins are washed away... Prior to January 17, 2013 I could not answer that without it being a lie but once my soul was handed over to God and he granted me forgiveness and Grace then salvation is mine... The devil brings up my past on a daily basis and I look to God and am reminded that what is being shown to me is my life before not my life now with God... God gives me the strength to continue on and it is that strength that I hold onto each and every day...

once I truly gave myself to God a great weight was lifted and my eyes were opened to a world that I never knew existed...

I do not work on the sabbath day nor do I allow others to work for me, this means I do not go shoping as the people who work at the stores get paid with the money I spend...

Letting go of the past is the hardest thing to do when starting a new life but it is necessary in order to live in your new life...

So at present I do not do anything to disobey God and if it weren't for God I would not be here speaking in the forum...

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Re: Is salvation Given or is it earned?

#14

Post by RickD » Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:08 pm

LonnieOwes wrote:
I do not work on the sabbath day nor do I allow others to work for me, this means I do not go shoping as the people who work at the stores get paid with the money I spend..
Do you do everything regarding the sabbath, as was commanded by God, yes or no?

Here's a list of what you must do, and cannot do on the sabbath.
You follow everything, completely, and without failing on anything?

http://www.letusreason.org/7thAd4.htm
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

LonnieOwesn1973
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Re: Is salvation Given or is it earned?

#15

Post by LonnieOwesn1973 » Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:24 pm

one problem with the death Part, it directly apposes the "Thou shalt not Kill" commandment.. the death in question is a spiritual death and yes this goes for the "The wages of sin is death" quote by Paul... God would not command you to brake the commandments neither would the Holy Spirit... So no I do not kill people because they brake the commandments, that is not for me to judge, if they brake the commandments they have to atone for them on judgement day. Hence the new covenant.. The evil done in the mosaic law, which means any law that directly or indirectly goes against the Commandments of God is not a law of God... This is why God asked me if my faith was in Him or in the bible because God would never order you to go against his commandments... people can bring up the battles all they want but God would be condemning his own to damnation and rendering his Laws null and void if he asked you to do that which is against what he commanded... If his laws were null and void then why would Jesus have kept them and instructed his followers to do the same as well as why would the apostles teach them??
I know I'm rambling but gave specifics in the commandments he placed into stone and then into us...

exodus 20:8-11 "8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

it is not for us to render punishment God is the only one who can do that...

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