End Times & Rapture Obsession - Largely A Waste of Time!

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End Times & Rapture Obsession - Largely A Waste of Time!

#1

Post by Philip » Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:17 pm

I've posted part of this before - back before Dr. Michael Heiser substantially added to it.

Heiser goes over the various models asserted to be definitive for a Rapture and for what sequence and geo-political players will be involved in how the End Times will go down. His counsel is that NO one has it right because key variables we would need to know to make a given scenario, timeline, and the players understandable ARE NOT CURRENTLY AVAILABLE TO US. How events unfold, and when, and the meanings of the related prophecies will become much clearer as that time approaches. But for now, despite all the books sold, the Christian authors so certain of their take on this - it's all filled with considerable speculations upon things that need clarifications.

http://drmsh.com/why-an-obsession-with- ... me-part-1/

http://drmsh.com/why-an-obsession-with- ... me-part-2/

http://drmsh.com/why-an-obsession-with- ... me-part-3/

http://drmsh.com/why-an-obsession-with- ... me-part-4/

http://drmsh.com/why-an-obsession-with- ... me-part-5/

http://drmsh.com/why-an-obsession-with- ... me-part-6/

http://drmsh.com/why-an-obsession-with- ... me-part-7/

http://drmsh.com/why-an-obsession-with- ... me-part-8/

http://drmsh.com/why-an-obsession-with- ... me-part-9/

http://drmsh.com/why-an-obsession-with- ... e-part-10/

http://drmsh.com/why-an-obsession-with- ... e-part-11/

http://drmsh.com/why-an-obsession-with- ... e-part-12/

http://drmsh.com/why-an-obsession-with- ... e-part-13/

http://drmsh.com/why-an-obsession-with- ... e-part-14/

http://drmsh.com/why-an-obsession-with- ... e-part-15/

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Re: End Times & Rapture Obsession - Largely A Waste of Time!

#2

Post by Philip » Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:19 pm

Here is what Heiser says in a setup to the above links:

"What do you believe about end times?"


Dr. Michael Heiser: I don't like any of the systems of Christian eschatology. They all cheat when they need to in order to create the appearance of coherence. There is truth in all of them, and bogus thinking in all of them. Consequently, I don't care to embrace any of them and don't care if that irritates people utterly absorbed by them. I taught dispensationalism and covenant theology on the college level for five years, so yes, I've heard or read all the arguments and know them backward and forward. When I say all the systems cheat and are driven by interpretive decisions brought to the text (as opposed to being derived from the text) I know what I'm talking about. Your latest personal study isn't going to change that, so don't send it to me. As I noted on my Contact page disclaimer, I'm just trying to be honest with you.

See my Naked Bible blog series on why an obsession with end times is a waste of time. I believe biblical eschatology is deliberately cryptic. It was for the disciples and it is for us as well. What I believe about eschatology is related to the larger "divine council worldview" of biblical theology (defined: the center of biblical theology is about God's rule in our realm and the unseen realm through his council imagers - human and non-human alike). In other words, the divine council is a much bigger deal than Psalm 82. No area of biblical theology is untouched by it. Demonstrating that is what I view as, academically, my life's work. That's why I've compiled a 230-page bibliography on all things related to divine council motifs and biblical theology as my scholarly launching pad. Every data point of this divine council worldview is peer-reviewed, but no one has done the synthesis. That's my life's work. All I can say here about its eschatology is that I believe Jesus will return and that the final form of the kingdom will be the new earth. That is not premillennialism as that term is normally defined (1000 years is too narrow and short for my reading of biblical theology).

The idea of a rapture is anything but self-evident in the text. It depends on a series of interpretive choices made by those who believe in it and then go back to the texts to "prove" it (and that's the problem with most eschatology; see the link to the above blog series). Certain ideas in pop eschatology are indeed nonsense. I'm embarrassed by what some "Bible teachers" say about end times. To quote myself, The Harbinger is an ode to biblical illiteracy. So is the idea that President Obama is the antichrist, and that 666 points to a Muslim antichrist. These teachings are demonstrably bogus.

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Re: End Times & Rapture Obsession - Largely A Waste of Time!

#3

Post by B. W. » Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:57 am

You should probably send some references to what he stated here:

"divine council worldview" of biblical theology (defined: the center of biblical theology is about God's rule in our realm and the unseen realm through his council imagers - human and non-human alike)"

Not sure if too many folks understand what he means...
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Re: End Times & Rapture Obsession - Largely A Waste of Time!

#4

Post by B. W. » Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:13 am

One problem concerning bible prophecy is the human pride factor - the need to be a lord - the first to figure it all out, etc and so forth.

Problems with bible prophecy comes from using a "systematic approach" that 'set by step model of western thought' and seems to be what Heiser is going after. Maybe he has a beef with it or not. I don't know. Do I agree with heiser 100 percent of the time - no I do not. Somethings, yes and other things no.

Scroll to around the 10 minute 20 seconds into the following video where these Guys discuss a letter, which by the way, in my opinion, expresses what Heiser and so many feel about the abuses of bible prophecy...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6vXAlAG4cw

Due to these abuses of bible prophecy these verses makes perfect sense:

"Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation." 2 Peter 3:3,4 NASB
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Re: End Times & Rapture Obsession - Largely A Waste of Time!

#5

Post by Philip » Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:16 am

B.W., if they care, they'll read through Heiser's info in the links.

So many theologians favor this or that scenario, yet with significant disagreements amongst them. We can only ponder the possible scenarios, yet without the much greater clarity those living as the events close in upon the world will have (that we presently do not have). But I do believe we see the birth pangs but not YET the specifics. I just trust God in how He will unfold things and guide His Church through whatever transpires and when. I don't doubt Scripture, but similar to those before Christ, there is much we likely, presently misunderstand - even if we have some of it correct.

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Re: End Times & Rapture Obsession - Largely A Waste of Time!

#6

Post by B. W. » Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:39 am

Philip wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:16 am
B.W., if they care, they'll read through Heiser's info in the links.

So many theologians favor this or that scenario, yet with significant disagreements amongst them. We can only ponder the possible scenarios, yet without the much greater clarity those living as the events close in upon the world will have (that we presently do not have). But I do believe we see the birth pangs but not YET the specifics. I just trust God in how He will unfold things and guide His Church through whatever transpires and when. I don't doubt Scripture, but similar to those before Christ, there is much we likely, presently misunderstand - even if we have some of it correct.
I agree Phil with you on this and that is why the letter quoted in the video is important. Some things are really clear - Israel became a nation in one day - in May 1948 70 years ago and Jerusalem liberated 1967, in June. Reticently made the official capital this past year - so which generation is meant that will see the last days unfold - the 1948, 1967, 2018 generation?

A generation is defined by the bible as from 70 to 120 years old on average.

Live you life as Jesus will return a hundred years from now but expect him at any moment...

The rapture is also clear enough in the bible to happen as a real event. Evidence suggest a partial rapture is most likely to occur before the worst hits the fan.Seems to be the more reasonable view as no one will know the day or time it will happen but if occurs in middle or after - you can pretty much guess the times.

Some say there is no 1 Thess 4:13,14,15,16,17,18 event at all. How comforting is that?

Jesus did say to pray that you escape these things that will fall upon humanity in the last days. Jesus list certain identifiers to at least discern one is close to the entrance into the great tribulation. Many of these indicators are scoffed at and mocked as stupid and any one who see's a correlation is an complete idiot - such as discussion on identifying if the Days of Noah are beginning or not.

Yes, bible prophecy is cryptic and as it unfolds close to the time it will come to pass is when it makes sense. God himself says in Isaiah 42:9 "Behold, the former things have come to pass, Now I declare new things; Before they spring forth I proclaim them to you." NASB

Before they spring forth - he will proclaim (tell them) to us... pretty much sums it up.

Things are lining up to what the bible actually says on a world wide scale concerning the day of wrath approaching. We are living through it either with our eyes closed or opened.
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Re: End Times & Rapture Obsession - Largely A Waste of Time!

#7

Post by Davy » Sat Sep 29, 2018 6:14 pm

Philip wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:19 pm
Here is what Heiser says in a setup to the above links:

"What do you believe about end times?"


Dr. Michael Heiser: I don't like any of the systems of Christian eschatology. They all cheat when they need to in order to create the appearance of coherence. There is truth in all of them, and bogus thinking in all of them. Consequently, I don't care to embrace any of them and don't care if that irritates people utterly absorbed by them. I taught dispensationalism and covenant theology on the college level for five years, so yes, I've heard or read all the arguments and know them backward and forward. When I say all the systems cheat and are driven by interpretive decisions brought to the text (as opposed to being derived from the text) I know what I'm talking about. Your latest personal study isn't going to change that, so don't send it to me. As I noted on my Contact page disclaimer, I'm just trying to be honest with you.
....
It's true if Heiser stayed in God's Word in its simplicity, then he would know which interpretations don't align with Scripture. But first, he would have to have The LORD's help via The Holy Spirit. It doesn't matter how much education one has, or how many different eschatology systems one has studied or taught. What matters is, is it actually God's Word?

God gave us ways to verify an idea in His Word, and for those things about the end we can know in simplicity, He made them easy to know the one true meaning, regardless of how many theologies we come into contact with. The reason why many are so confused is because of people like Heiser, learning and teaching as many different interpretations as possible, no doubt in hopes that one of them will come forth more and reveal itself as the true interpretation, but those are ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth, like Apostle Paul said to Timothy.

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Re: End Times & Rapture Obsession - Largely A Waste of Time!

#8

Post by Stu » Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:55 am

If it was a waste of time, Jesus wouldn't have spent time talking about it and Daniel wouldn't have received prophecy.

Also the whole book of Revelation is about the end times. If it was a waste of time, that book wouldn't have been revealed to John.
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Re: End Times & Rapture Obsession - Largely A Waste of Time!

#9

Post by abelcainsbrother » Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:35 pm

Philip wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:17 pm
I've posted part of this before - back before Dr. Michael Heiser substantially added to it.

Heiser goes over the various models asserted to be definitive for a Rapture and for what sequence and geo-political players will be involved in how the End Times will go down. His counsel is that NO one has it right because key variables we would need to know to make a given scenario, timeline, and the players understandable ARE NOT CURRENTLY AVAILABLE TO US. How events unfold, and when, and the meanings of the related prophecies will become much clearer as that time approaches. But for now, despite all the books sold, the Christian authors so certain of their take on this - it's all filled with considerable speculations upon things that need clarifications.

http://drmsh.com/why-an-obsession-with- ... me-part-1/

http://drmsh.com/why-an-obsession-with- ... me-part-2/

http://drmsh.com/why-an-obsession-with- ... me-part-3/

http://drmsh.com/why-an-obsession-with- ... me-part-4/

http://drmsh.com/why-an-obsession-with- ... me-part-5/

http://drmsh.com/why-an-obsession-with- ... me-part-6/

http://drmsh.com/why-an-obsession-with- ... me-part-7/

http://drmsh.com/why-an-obsession-with- ... me-part-8/

http://drmsh.com/why-an-obsession-with- ... me-part-9/

http://drmsh.com/why-an-obsession-with- ... e-part-10/

http://drmsh.com/why-an-obsession-with- ... e-part-11/

http://drmsh.com/why-an-obsession-with- ... e-part-12/

http://drmsh.com/why-an-obsession-with- ... e-part-13/

http://drmsh.com/why-an-obsession-with- ... e-part-14/

http://drmsh.com/why-an-obsession-with- ... e-part-15/


I understand why there is so much confusion when it comes to end times bible prophecy,but it is never a waste of time to study God's word and to seek out the truth of it even when it comes to end-times bible prophecy. I disagree with Heiser claiming it is a waste of time,esecially when he pushes this divine council stuff,now I'm not saying I disagree with it,but it is just another interpretation that must be proven with scripture and not what man says or his opinion is. It amazes me how so many Christians mostly go on the opinions of man and their interpretations instead of what God's word says.

These Christians do not know God's word enough to even know if it is true or not and yet believe it anyway because the man sounds right in his opinion.If we are going to criticize different interpretations and be able to make a case for why some are wrong while others are true them we MUST have enough knowledge of God's word to do so. But it is easy to just go by a Christian man's opinion instead of what God's word actually says. There is not any interpretation out there that we cannot know is correct or not if we are going by God's word,instead of man's opinions and speculations.

Personally I find this idea that modern bible scholars have against using scripture to prove scripture is a big problem and it is a big reason why there are so many of man's opinions are out there instead of the truth of God's word. The word of God is LIVING and is full of wonderful knowledge in many different categories but we must take the time to seek it out and saddly we are often too busy to do that and so we are not able to know when an interpretation is correct and when it is not.
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Re: End Times & Rapture Obsession - Largely A Waste of Time!

#10

Post by Philip » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:36 pm

Stu: If it was a waste of time, Jesus wouldn't have spent time talking about it and Daniel wouldn't have received prophecy.

Also the whole book of Revelation is about the end times. If it was a waste of time, that book wouldn't have been revealed to John.
Notice Heiser didn't say studying these were a waste of time - of course it was given for a reason and God saw it as very important to the future of the Church and those living when those days arrive. What Heiser means is, having an OBSESSION with trying to figure out exactly what it all means, how it will fit together, the precise sequence as to how it will all go down, and with which key political players - and especially WHEN - is CURRENTLY, mostly a waste of time. Also, notice, WHY he says this. It's because there is information eventually come available that will build upon what Scripture teaches about the last days, that will become very important and FAR more instructive to those living as those days are upon them - that will make what we have now much more understandable. Notice that there are various current camps of opinion amongst conservative theologians and Bible scholars with differing views upon the specific details of the prophecies' meanings - and among such people are many thousands of exceptionally qualified and Scripturally knowledgeable professionals who also view Scripture as having been "God breathed" AND, as originally given, perfect, true and trustworthy - as who believe we have such a vast number of old Bible manuscripts across the world, that we can know with great certainty precisely what was in the original autographs. The few verses there is ANY legitimate scholarly debate over changes not a single doctrinal or theological point of significant importance.

From the comments I've seen here, I doubt most criticizing Heiser have read through the specific issues he's noted that are problematic with each major viewpoint currently touted. And he's one of the most-qualified Christian scholars able to credibly analyze this issue.

Similarly, there were many, many Messianic prophecies that God-honoring and loving Jewish rabbis had long studied that they failed to accurately understand prior to Jesus ministry and crucifixion. In fact, these many things only began to make complete sense as these men of God looked back at the same prophecies after the Resurrection. The disciples, all students of Scripture since childhood, daily walked with and talked to Jesus, watched Him do amazing miracles, heard him speak of his mission - and even they didn't fully comprehend how the prophecies would play out vs. how they understood them beforehand. So, anyone thinking our generation should be able to accurately understand the SPECIFICS of future events with key, crucial, not-yet-available variables still missing - they are only guessing at anything beyond a speculative or tentative framework. I'd advise everyone to review Heiser's reasons AND QUESTIONS he has about the currently unavailable, necessary variables each End Times scenario would currently require so as to be accurate.

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Re: End Times & Rapture Obsession - Largely A Waste of Time!

#11

Post by Davy » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:26 am

The matter still is, if God has not opened up His Word in understanding to someone by The Holy Spirit, then they will go all kinds of ways and never come to the truth. It doesn't matter how much Bible scholarship or education they have; those things are tools only, not the treasure in Christ Jesus. And God has provided us with good Bible scholars over the years. But we are now in a day and time when we no longer need someone to read God's Word to us because of being illiterate. Each believer today has the ability to read for their self and go get many of the study tools that past scholars wrote which God provided, just as He got His written Word to the peoples instead of in the hands of the few. We don't need another Levitical priesthood over us. Each believer on Christ Jesus can now go directly to The Father through Jesus Christ.

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Re: End Times & Rapture Obsession - Largely A Waste of Time!

#12

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:05 pm

Stu wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:55 am
If it was a waste of time, Jesus wouldn't have spent time talking about it and Daniel wouldn't have received prophecy.

Also the whole book of Revelation is about the end times. If it was a waste of time, that book wouldn't have been revealed to John.
What we have here is confusing Jesus' command to be watchful for the end of times with trying to PREDICT and being OBSESSED by it.

In Acts 1 He make the EXPLICIT statement:

The Ascension

6So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” 9And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. 10And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, 11and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

So, what about Revelation?
Well, what about it?
What was revealed to John was that was happening, what will happen soon and what will happen in the future.
Full of rich symbolism that those that John passed on his vision to would understand.

Now, does that mean we are NOT to be vigilant? of course not since Jesus commands us to and warns us to be ware of becoming complacent.
BUT he also DIRECTLY tells us NOT to try guess WHEN and that the time is NOT know by anyone other than God.
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Re: End Times & Rapture Obsession - Largely A Waste of Time!

#13

Post by Davy » Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:13 am

Jesus gave very specific signs of the end to be watching for. So His meaning was not some adverbial 'watchful' idea like being careful to not get hit by a car while crossing the road. No, He gave specific signs to be on watch for at the end of this world, like the "abomination of desolation" idol being setup in Jerusalem. Yes! In Jerusalem... specifically! That's where the Book of Daniel points to about the AOD and that's where Jesus was pointing to. So not only did He give us a specific sign in that to be watching for, He also gave us the place! His Book of Revelation also follows the same type language about signs to be watching for at the end of this world.

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Re: End Times & Rapture Obsession - Largely A Waste of Time!

#14

Post by Stu » Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:51 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:05 pm
Stu wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:55 am
If it was a waste of time, Jesus wouldn't have spent time talking about it and Daniel wouldn't have received prophecy.

Also the whole book of Revelation is about the end times. If it was a waste of time, that book wouldn't have been revealed to John.
What we have here is confusing Jesus' command to be watchful for the end of times with trying to PREDICT and being OBSESSED by it.

In Acts 1 He make the EXPLICIT statement:

The Ascension

6So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” 9And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. 10And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, 11and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

So, what about Revelation?
Well, what about it?
What was revealed to John was that was happening, what will happen soon and what will happen in the future.
Full of rich symbolism that those that John passed on his vision to would understand.

Now, does that mean we are NOT to be vigilant? of course not since Jesus commands us to and warns us to be ware of becoming complacent.
BUT he also DIRECTLY tells us NOT to try guess WHEN and that the time is NOT know by anyone other than God.
Actually no, Jesus said we won't know the time of HIS coming, but we can look out for the tribulation, mark of the beast, etc.

We can know the season but not the day.
Only when the blood runs and the shackles restrain, will the sheep then awake. When all is lost.

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Re: End Times & Rapture Obsession - Largely A Waste of Time!

#15

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:44 am

That's the point, watch for the signs BUT don't try to guess that time.
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