Do Muslims, Christians & Jews Worship Same God?

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Re: Trump Moving U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem!!!

Postby Hortator » Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:28 pm

Blessed wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:At the end of the day Islam, Christianity, Judaism are three different religions with different beliefs that cannot be united.



...but they all worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.


Let me just simulate the next 2 pages:

“No, they don’t.”

“Yes, they do.”

“No, they don’t.”

“Yes, they do.”

I enjoy hearing people debate opinions. I don’t enjoy people disputing facts. And I hope somebody with a little more patience than me will nip this disinformation you have ingested in the bud.

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Re: Trump Moving U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem!!!

Postby Kurieuo » Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:31 pm

Blessed wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:At the end of the day Islam, Christianity, Judaism are three different religions with different beliefs that cannot be united.



...but they all worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Do they? Please explain how.
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Re: Trump Moving U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem!!!

Postby edwardmurphy » Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:28 pm

This is semantics. They all worship the same God. Their ideas about the nature of that God vary, as do their methods of worship, codes of conduct, and the like. But the same God seen through different lenses is still the same God.
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Re: Trump Moving U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem!!!

Postby Kurieuo » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:48 am

You don't believe in God Ed, so your opinion here is actually worth zilch, no offence but you couldn't care less about differences. I refer to my previous post on some differences. They are as much semantics like saying Ra and the Sun are one and the same.
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Re: Trump Moving U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem!!!

Postby RickD » Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:56 am

Do Muslims And Christians Worship The Same God?

Christians worship Yahweh, the Trinity, whereas Muslims worship Allah, a monad. This is not an incidental difference; Islam makes every effort to condemn the Trinity as blasphemy (4.171). The Quran rejects the relational aspects of God, saying that he is not a father (5.18) and he is not a son (112.3). It establishes its own doctrine of God, tawhid, in diametric opposition to the Trinity, and that doctrine becomes the central doctrine of Islamic theology.
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Re: Trump Moving U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem!!!

Postby edwardmurphy » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:20 am

Kurieuo wrote:You don't believe in God Ed, so your opinion here is actually worth zilch, no offence but you couldn't care less about differences.


No offense taken, although I think it's a mistake to discount my views simply because I regard the gods in question as human inventions. Whether they're real or imagined is irrelevant to the question. Anyone can see the similarities and differences in the teachings of the Abrahamic religions.

Truthfully, I think that a nonbeliever might actually be better suited to look objectively at those similarities and differences, not having a dog in the fight.

A history professor once told me that, in his view, scholars we're better off studying events that didn't directly affect their own lives or intersect with their own cultural identities. He said that his job was to present the Jewish perspective on Irish history. His point was that he, being neither Christian nor Irish, was in an ideal position to study the fractious history of the island dispassionately and at least somewhat objectively.

I think he had a point. I once came across a passionate online debate between two groups of Christians, of which one believed that a correct reading of the Bible indicated that drinking alcohol was improper, while the other argued that scripture only discouraged over indulgence. Both groups supported their positions with the same lines from the Bible, and neither saw the debate as the slightest bit absurd.

Those kinds of debates are common both within and between the different faiths. To me, again as an outsider, it seems glaringly obvious that religious texts are open to interpretation and that no one is in a position to claim much of anything as an inarguable truth. And if you look back at all of the inquisitions, heresies, and schisms over the last two millennia that view seems to be overwhelmingly supported.

I'm not passionate about this issue because, as you know, I don't have a dog in this fight, but it seems to me that the claim that Muslims worship a different God than Jews and Christians is erroneous.
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Re: Trump Moving U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem!!!

Postby Philip » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:52 am

Ed: No offense taken, although I think it's a mistake to discount my views simply because I regard the gods in question as human inventions. Whether they're real or imagined is irrelevant to the question. Anyone can see the similarities and differences in the teachings of the Abrahamic religions.


If ANY of such gods or God isn't real, then the question is irrelevant. But if any or all of them might be real, we must compare the gods or God as they are BELIEVED TO BE. So, per what is asserted, can they be the SAME God - not can any one real god or God be mistaken for another one, or even the REAL One. So you have three major, monotheistic religions describing Jesus: Muslims: Jesus is only a prophet and is a created being (he's not God). Jews disbelieve both that Jesus was sent from God as well as deny Him to actually BE God. Christians believe that Jesus was God. The law of non-contradiction shows that, as believed and described, these cannot all be the same God or gods.

Ed: Truthfully, I think that a nonbeliever might actually be better suited to look objectively at those similarities and differences, not having a dog in the fight.


Remember, Ed, from a Christian point of view, believing in whatever similarities or origins of belief (all of which are the Old Testament), it is not belief in similarities that even matters - because if the Jesus of the New Testament is not believed in, whatever beliefs in similarities are irrelevant. And the same would be true from the viewpoints of Muslims and Jews - that belief in Jesus as God is considered blasphemy. And, of course, Jews do not believe that the God of the Old Testament is Allah, nor that Muhammad is a messenger anymore than they believe Jesus was.

Ed: I think he had a point. I once came across a passionate online debate between two groups of Christians, of which one believed that a correct reading of the Bible indicated that drinking alcohol was improper, while the other argued that scripture only discouraged over indulgence. Both groups supported their positions with the same lines from the Bible, and neither saw the debate as the slightest bit absurd.


Which is an irrelevant and far secondary issue to the central questions and beliefs as to Who is actually God. These two groups of Christians all claimed Christ as God - meaning, whether right or wrong about alcohol, they still believed in the same God.

Ed: Those kinds of debates are common both within and between the different faiths. To me, again as an outsider, it seems glaringly obvious that religious texts are open to interpretation and that no one is in a position to claim much of anything as an inarguable truth. And if you look back at all of the inquisitions, heresies, and schisms over the last two millennia that view seems to be overwhelmingly supported.


Ed: I'm not passionate about this issue because, as you know, I don't have a dog in this fight, but it seems to me that the claim that Muslims worship a different God than Jews and Christians is erroneous.


Ed, per your stated beliefs, I'm not sure why you care - other than you appear to believe the differences in who people consider God or god, to be mostly irrelevant. Usually, the case is, atheists and agnostics want to minimize the differences because of the frictions they have created. But that's still not answering the question. Clearly, if any one of these God or gods truly exist, then cannot be the same as described. One says lack of believing Jesus is God means they'll not inherit Heaven, and that all claims of a God that deny Jesus is God, are lies which will fail to save them. One insists all denying Allah to be god will be damned by Him. The Jews still look to a promised savior that has never come, said Jesus was a man and a fraud and that Allah is a merely false religous belief - and thus blasphemous to believe in. So, to Jews, the God Who is Jesus - the one Who has a Father and Spirit, existing in a Trinity with Him - they deny such a God exists. Now, one could take the position, even if wrong, that NONE of these so-called gods or God actually exist. But if any one of them, or even all of them, exist as described, it makes no sense to believe they can be the same God or god - that's immensely contradicted by the beliefs of these three different faiths.

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Re: Trump Moving U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem!!!

Postby Blessed » Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:45 am

Philip,

Do you believe anyone who is not a Christian is going to hell by default?

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Re: Trump Moving U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem!!!

Postby Blessed » Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:47 am

Kurieuo wrote:
Blessed wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:At the end of the day Islam, Christianity, Judaism are three different religions with different beliefs that cannot be united.



...but they all worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Do they? Please explain how.



Monotheism (as we know it today) originates from Jews. All 3 major religions trace their roots back to the old testament.

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Re: Trump Moving U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem!!!

Postby Kurieuo » Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:31 am

Blessing, it stands to reason then that anyone who believes in God (monotheism) is saved. If not, why not? Is yes, then ok, we just have different Christian beliefs and I'd say in a way that matters a whole lot to Christology and soteriology.
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Re: Trump Moving U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem!!!

Postby Hortator » Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:45 am

Blessed wrote:Philip,

Do you believe anyone who is not a Christian is going to hell by default?


Rich got this question a lot when he was still active and made a page about it, http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... heard.html

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Re: Trump Moving U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem!!!

Postby Philip » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:03 am

Blessed wrote:
Philip, Do you believe anyone who is not a Christian is going to hell by default?


Yes, and I believe it because Scripture teaches it. - this is the reason for the immense importance of the Great Commission. ALL can know Jesus is God, IF they sincerely want to know AND they will only seek God and have an open heart and mind. But NOT seeking, avoiding, denying, following false beliefs in other gods (ANY god that is not Jesus), insisting the question of God is unknowable - ALL of these things will condemn a person to hell, UNLESS they come to faith in Christ before their death. God strongly desires men to seek and find Him - and ANYONE / ANYWHERE can pray and ask God to reveal Himself to them. And NO remote place limits God from orchestrating their knowledge of the Gospel - meaning, God is not limited to ONLY missionaries to reach a person, though this is the way we mostly have historically of - but we do not know how God ALWAYS reaches people - whether through dreams, visions - maybe even at the cusp of death. And now, the Gospel can be found anywhere the internet reaches, etc. But all saved persons must come to faith in Christ before death. There is not one example in Scripture of anyone, post Jesus ministry, being saved without expressing knowledge of and faith in Christ. In fact, the Apostle Paul rhetorically asks how this would even be possible - as He asserts it is not possible.

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Re: Trump Moving U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem!!!

Postby Stu » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:50 am

Philip wrote:
Blessed wrote:
Philip, Do you believe anyone who is not a Christian is going to hell by default?


Yes, and I believe it because Scripture teaches it. - this is the reason for the immense importance of the Great Commission. ALL can know Jesus is God, IF they sincerely want to know AND they will only seek God and have an open heart and mind. But NOT seeking, avoiding, denying, following false beliefs in other gods (ANY god that is not Jesus), insisting the question of God is unknowable - ALL of these things will condemn a person to hell, UNLESS they come to faith in Christ before their death. God strongly desires men to seek and find Him - and ANYONE / ANYWHERE can pray and ask God to reveal Himself to them. And NO remote place limits God from orchestrating their knowledge of the Gospel - meaning, God is not limited to ONLY missionaries to reach a person, though this is the way we mostly have historically of - but we do not know how God ALWAYS reaches people - whether through dreams, visions - maybe even at the cusp of death. And now, the Gospel can be found anywhere the internet reaches, etc. But all saved persons must come to faith in Christ before death. There is not one example in Scripture of anyone, post Jesus ministry, being saved without expressing knowledge of and faith in Christ. In fact, the Apostle Paul rhetorically asks how this would even be possible - as He asserts it is not possible.


What if someone has never heard of Jesus before.

Does the Bible not say that these people will be judged on their deeds and heart?
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Re: Trump Moving U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem!!!

Postby Philip » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:54 pm

Stu, read through this: https://bible.org/seriespage/lesson-11-god-s-impartial-judgment-romans-212-16

Note that, as God is a Trinity of three Persons - with each Member (the Father, Son and Holy Spirit) equally being God - so, to reject any one of its Members is to reject God as He truly is. One can indeed not know of the Son or Holy Spirit and nonetheless still reject God. Of course, of the many people Jesus said were condemned, they nonetheless sat at His feet and saw Him do many astonishing miracles - while accusing Him of using demonic power to do them. Paul said, (Romans 2) "12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law." And when he speaks of pagans who had neither the OT or knowledge of Jesus were condemned because they had already rejected of God the very basic knowledge of Himself that ALL persons since the beginning of time have ALREADY been given to them, by God. Interestingly, in the Romans passage concerning pagans without The Law or Gospel being condemned, Paul never even mentions their rejection of Jesus as the ultimate reason.

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Re: Trump Moving U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem!!!

Postby Blessed » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:19 pm

Philip wrote:
Blessed wrote:
Philip, Do you believe anyone who is not a Christian is going to hell by default?


Yes, and I believe it because Scripture teaches it. - this is the reason for the immense importance of the Great Commission. ALL can know Jesus is God, IF they sincerely want to know AND they will only seek God and have an open heart and mind. But NOT seeking, avoiding, denying, following false beliefs in other gods (ANY god that is not Jesus), insisting the question of God is unknowable - ALL of these things will condemn a person to hell, UNLESS they come to faith in Christ before their death. God strongly desires men to seek and find Him - and ANYONE / ANYWHERE can pray and ask God to reveal Himself to them. And NO remote place limits God from orchestrating their knowledge of the Gospel - meaning, God is not limited to ONLY missionaries to reach a person, though this is the way we mostly have historically of - but we do not know how God ALWAYS reaches people - whether through dreams, visions - maybe even at the cusp of death. And now, the Gospel can be found anywhere the internet reaches, etc. But all saved persons must come to faith in Christ before death. There is not one example in Scripture of anyone, post Jesus ministry, being saved without expressing knowledge of and faith in Christ. In fact, the Apostle Paul rhetorically asks how this would even be possible - as He asserts it is not possible.



Apparently you've never heard of the socialization process. If you believe that - your an absolutist Christian zealot. No different then the (relatively few) Mormon Zealots I met who were absolutist's. They believed only Mormons will saved.

I lost $3,200 cash tonight and almost got into an unwarranted physical fight with some redneck at the Ceasers Palace sportsbook ..so since I'm on a roll .. I might as well end this horrible night on a divisive note..

So let's get this straight:

1) All Jews (post New Testament Jews) are going to hell by default
2) All Muslims are going to hell
3) All Mormons are going to hell
4) All Buddists are going to hell (I'd be inclined to agree with you on this one but do not know about "all")
5) All Catholics are going to hell
6) All Hindus are going to hell (I'd be inclined to agree with you here too but do not know about "all")
7) Any person born and raised ignorant of Christianity is going to hell including ALL Native Americans, all indigenous peoples anywhere in history including all Polynesian/Island cultures, all peoples of all cultures who ever lived before or after the New Testament (except Jews before the NT, and Christians after the NT) are going to hell
8 ) Any "other" religion (no matter the person or circumstances involved) is going to hell


JESUS IS GOD. Not the son of God (for God so loved the world he gave his only SON). Jesus is the same exact God of the old testament even though Jesus is referred to the SON OF GOD 100000x+++ in the bible and even other deity's are referred to as "sons" of God in Genesis (i.e. the SONS of God).

Everyone else is going to hell.

Please confirm if this is correct.


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