Local flood and local fire?

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DBowling
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Re: Local flood and local fire?

Postby DBowling » Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:18 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
theophilus wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Where in the bible doe sit say that the flood took place 1636 after creation?
Where is that number?
How many years were Adam and Eve in the Garden in Eden?

Chapter 5 of Genesis gives the genealogy from Adam to Noah. It tells how long each person lived and at what age he became the father of the next person. If you use this information you can figure out how much time elapsed between the creation and the flood.

What makes you think that the age of Adam is based on when he was created and not when he left Eden?

I actually agree with theophilus on this one...

Genesis 5:3 (In the Masoretic text) says
"3 When Adam had lived 130 years..."
The text refers to how long Adam "had lived"
Genesis 5:3 doesn't make any reference to Eden at all.

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Re: Local flood and local fire?

Postby DBowling » Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:26 am

theophilus wrote:
DBowling wrote:And nowhere in Scripture does God say that the flood covered the whole planet.

In Genesis 6:13 God said, "I have determined to make an end of all flesh, for the earth is filled with violence through them. Behold, I will destroy them with the earth." A flood could not do this unless it covered all of the earth.

The flood DID cover all the earth/land/erets...
Your problem continues to be the extrascriptural presumption that earth/land/erets = whole planet.

And yet again... a study of how the word earth/land/erets is used in Genesis (and the rest of the OT for that matter) demonstrates that is a faulty presumption.

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Re: Local flood and local fire?

Postby PaulSacramento » Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:17 am

DBowling wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
theophilus wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Where in the bible doe sit say that the flood took place 1636 after creation?
Where is that number?
How many years were Adam and Eve in the Garden in Eden?

Chapter 5 of Genesis gives the genealogy from Adam to Noah. It tells how long each person lived and at what age he became the father of the next person. If you use this information you can figure out how much time elapsed between the creation and the flood.

What makes you think that the age of Adam is based on when he was created and not when he left Eden?

I actually agree with theophilus on this one...

Genesis 5:3 (In the Masoretic text) says
"3 When Adam had lived 130 years..."
The text refers to how long Adam "had lived"
Genesis 5:3 doesn't make any reference to Eden at all.


Even if it refers to Adam total age, from his creation to death, there is no time line IN the Garden or WHEN the garden was made so how does one calculate the age of the world from Adam's?

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Re: Local flood and local fire?

Postby DBowling » Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:37 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
DBowling wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
theophilus wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Where in the bible doe sit say that the flood took place 1636 after creation?
Where is that number?
How many years were Adam and Eve in the Garden in Eden?

Chapter 5 of Genesis gives the genealogy from Adam to Noah. It tells how long each person lived and at what age he became the father of the next person. If you use this information you can figure out how much time elapsed between the creation and the flood.

What makes you think that the age of Adam is based on when he was created and not when he left Eden?

I actually agree with theophilus on this one...

Genesis 5:3 (In the Masoretic text) says
"3 When Adam had lived 130 years..."
The text refers to how long Adam "had lived"
Genesis 5:3 doesn't make any reference to Eden at all.


Even if it refers to Adam total age, from his creation to death, there is no time line IN the Garden or WHEN the garden was made so how does one calculate the age of the world from Adam's?


I agree with you there. As I mention in my post above, as a day-ager I don't think you can calculate the age of the universe or planet based on when Adam lived.

I was agreeing with theophilus that I think Genesis 5:3 refers to how long Adam was alive.

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Re: Local flood and local fire?

Postby theophilus » Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:41 am

PaulSacramento wrote:Even if it refers to Adam total age, from his creation to death, there is no time line IN the Garden or WHEN the garden was made so how does one calculate the age of the world from Adam's?

Adam was created on the sixth day. Just add five days to Adam's age and you have the age of the earth.
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Re: Local flood and local fire?

Postby PaulSacramento » Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:49 am

*shakes head*

Where does it say that Adam was created on the sixth day in Genesis 2?

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Re: Local flood and local fire?

Postby DBowling » Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:00 am

theophilus wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Even if it refers to Adam total age, from his creation to death, there is no time line IN the Garden or WHEN the garden was made so how does one calculate the age of the world from Adam's?

Adam was created on the sixth day. Just add five days to Adam's age and you have the age of the earth.

You are presuming that we know how long a day/yom within the context of the Genesis 1 creation account is.
Which brings me to one of my favorite questions?
How long is the day/yom in Genesis 2:4?

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Re: Local flood and local fire?

Postby theophilus » Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:31 am

DBowling wrote:You are presuming that we know how long a day/yom within the context of the Genesis 1 creation account is.
Which brings me to one of my favorite questions?
How long is the day/yom in Genesis 2:4?

The word day can have many meanings and it is the context of each usage that shows which meaning is intended. In Genesis 2:4 it means the total period of time involved in creation. The meaning of the days of creation in chapter 1 is found in Genesis 1:3-5: And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

Each day had a period of light and one of darkness. It consisted of an evening and a morning. Only one meaning, the period in which the earth rotates one time on its axis, fulfills this definition.
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Re: Local flood and local fire?

Postby theophilus » Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:35 am

PaulSacramento wrote:*shakes head*

Where does it say that Adam was created on the sixth day in Genesis 2?

It is found in Genesis 1, verses 26 and 27:

Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
God wants full custody of his children, not just visits on Sunday.

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Re: Local flood and local fire?

Postby RickD » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:31 am

theophilus wrote:
DBowling wrote:You are presuming that we know how long a day/yom within the context of the Genesis 1 creation account is.
Which brings me to one of my favorite questions?
How long is the day/yom in Genesis 2:4?

The word day can have many meanings and it is the context of each usage that shows which meaning is intended. In Genesis 2:4 it means the total period of time involved in creation. The meaning of the days of creation in chapter 1 is found in Genesis 1:3-5: And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

Each day had a period of light and one of darkness. It consisted of an evening and a morning. Only one meaning, the period in which the earth rotates one time on its axis, fulfills this definition.

So, according to your interpretation, each day is the same as we know a day today, the earth rotates on its axis, and in relation to the sun, each place on the earth has daylight and darkness. Tell me then, according to your interpretation, when was the sun created, before or after this point in Genesis 1:3-5?

Edit:
Just to be clear theophilus, you wrote:
Each day had a period of light and one of darkness. It consisted of an evening and a morning. Only one meaning, the period in which the earth rotates one time on its axis, fulfills this definition.

You do realize that inherent in what a 24 hour day is, the sun rising and setting, is why there's morning and evening, respectively?

In other words, you're saying that in Genesis 1:3-5, a day must be 24 hours because the days have morning and evenings, AT THE SAME TIME you're saying the very thing that causes mornings and evenings, the sun, wasn't created yet.
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Re: Local flood and local fire?

Postby PaulSacramento » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:55 am

theophilus wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:*shakes head*

Where does it say that Adam was created on the sixth day in Genesis 2?

It is found in Genesis 1, verses 26 and 27:

Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.



And yet, the Genesis 2 account is NOT the same, is it?

The Creation of Man and Woman
4 These are the generations
of the heavens and the earth when they were created,
in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.
5 When no bush of the field[a] was yet in the land[b] and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up—for the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the land, and there was no man to work the ground, 6 and a mist[c] was going up from the land and was watering the whole face of the ground— 7 then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature. 8 And the Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 And out of the ground the Lord God made to spring up every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

So, what is going on here?

One account mentions plant life and animals first BUT the other has Man first.

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Re: Local flood and local fire?

Postby DBowling » Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:34 am

theophilus wrote:
DBowling wrote:You are presuming that we know how long a day/yom within the context of the Genesis 1 creation account is.
Which brings me to one of my favorite questions?
How long is the day/yom in Genesis 2:4?

The word day can have many meanings and it is the context of each usage that shows which meaning is intended. In Genesis 2:4 it means the total period of time involved in creation. The meaning of the days of creation in chapter 1 is found in Genesis 1:3-5: And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

Each day had a period of light and one of darkness. It consisted of an evening and a morning. Only one meaning, the period in which the earth rotates one time on its axis, fulfills this definition.


I agree 100% with the following statement
"The word day can have many meanings and it is the context of each usage that shows which meaning is intended."

The question then becomes, does the context of Genesis 1 indicate that day/yom means 24 hours within the context of the Creation Account.
For starters we agree that the usage of day/yom within the context of the Creation Account in Genesis 2:4 does not mean 24 hours.

So what is the implication of "and there was evening and there was morning"?

Actually Scripture never says that the Genesis 1 days had only one period of light and one period of darkness. In fact the phrase "and there was evening and there was morning, day x" does not refer to the span of a whole day. Going from evening to morning refers to the transition between days... one day is coming to an end and another day is beginning.

Another indicator in the text that the presence of an evening (end) and morning (beginning) does not imply 24 hours is the absence of an evening and a morning in day 7.

What does the absence of an evening and morning for day 7 tell us?
How long was day 7, since it had no evening and morning (Hebrews 4 gives us a clue)?

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Re: Local flood and local fire?

Postby Philip » Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:35 am

Genesis 2: "These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created,
in the day that..."

No question - it's referencing "generations" of time all within the time frame of a particular kind of "day" - so, there IS a day that spans generations. It's right there in black and white!

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Re: Local flood and local fire?

Postby theophilus » Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:37 am

RickD wrote:So, according to your interpretation, each day is the same as we know a day today, the earth rotates on its axis, and in relation to the sun, each place on the earth has daylight and darkness. Tell me then, according to your interpretation, when was the sun created, before or after this point in Genesis 1:3-5?

Edit:
Just to be clear theophilus, you wrote:
Each day had a period of light and one of darkness. It consisted of an evening and a morning. Only one meaning, the period in which the earth rotates one time on its axis, fulfills this definition.

You do realize that inherent in what a 24 hour day is, the sun rising and setting, is why there's morning and evening, respectively?

In other words, you're saying that in Genesis 1:3-5, a day must be 24 hours because the days have morning and evenings, AT THE SAME TIME you're saying the very thing that causes mornings and evenings, the sun, wasn't created yet.

Genesis 1:14-19 tells us that on the fourth day God placed lights in the sky. Most people assume that he did so by creating the bodies that produce the light but that isn't necessarily the case. It is possible that there was a cloud cover that kept them from being seen. On the first day the clouds thinned enough so light could reach the earth; on the fourth day they were removed so the sources of the light could be seen.

The days weren't necessarily 24 hours long. I think they might have been 21 minutes longer. Here is the reason I believe this:

https://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/2012/ ... -the-days/
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Re: Local flood and local fire?

Postby theophilus » Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:41 am

PaulSacramento wrote:And yet, the Genesis 2 account is NOT the same, is it?

The Creation of Man and Woman
4 These are the generations
of the heavens and the earth when they were created,
in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.
5 When no bush of the field[a] was yet in the land[b] and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up—for the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the land, and there was no man to work the ground, 6 and a mist[c] was going up from the land and was watering the whole face of the ground— 7 then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature. 8 And the Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 And out of the ground the Lord God made to spring up every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

So, what is going on here?

One account mentions plant life and animals first BUT the other has Man first.

The plants in chapter 2 are those that grow in the field and require someone to cultivate them. It wouldn't make any sense to create these plants before there was someone to take care of them, would it?
God wants full custody of his children, not just visits on Sunday.


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