What "Faith" Did the Thief on Cross Have?

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Kurieuo
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What "Faith" Did the Thief on Cross Have?

Post by Kurieuo »

Jesus told the thief on the cross who came to His defense that he would be in paradise with Christ.

Questions:
  • Did the thief on the cross realise God was a Trinity?
  • Did he believe Jesus was God?
  • What theological knowledge did the thief on the cross have?
  • And then finally, is there anything we can take-away from what a "saving faith" looks like through this story in the Gospels?
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)
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Re: What "Faith" Did the Thief on Cross Have?

Post by DBowling »

Kurieuo wrote:Jesus told the thief on the cross who came to His defense that he would be in paradise with Christ.

Questions:
  • Did the thief on the cross realise God was a Trinity?
  • Did he believe Jesus was God?
  • What theological knowledge did the thief on the cross have?
  • And then finally, is there anything we can take-away from what a "saving faith" looks like through this story in the Gospels?
Two things come to mind:
1) I think the key is 'what is the object of saving faith?'. The object of saving faith is the person of Jesus Christ.
Saving faith is placing my faith and trust in the person of Jesus. Saving faith is not placing my faith and trust in what I know or believe about Jesus. (James 2:19).
2) The thief recognized that he was a sinner and he placed his faith in Jesus to deliver him from his sin (repentance).

In Christ
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Re: What "Faith" Did the Thief on Cross Have?

Post by Philip »

DB: Two things come to mind:

1) I think the key is 'what is the object of saving faith?'. The object of saving faith is the person of Jesus Christ.
Saving faith is placing my faith and trust in the person of Jesus. Saving faith is not placing my faith and trust in what I know or believe about Jesus. (James 2:19).

2) The thief recognized that he was a sinner and he placed his faith in Jesus to deliver him from his sin (repentance).
But that saving faith was based upon believing in the actual Jesus in front of Him - and not of some falsely constructed Jesus - whether then or many years afterward. We also know that it was widely known why He was being killed - He had asserted Himself to be God! The thief obviously knew this - Jesus was a famous guy in that area. He knew that Jesus had been accused of blasphemy. I say he believed Jesus was Who he'd claimed to be. When the thief said, " “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” WHOSE Kingdom? - Jesus' Kingdom! And the Kingdom not of this earth belonged to Whom - to God. I'd say, the thief new Jesus was God.
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Re: What "Faith" Did the Thief on Cross Have?

Post by BigHamster »

Other questions are.... why did this event even occur and then get mentioned in the bible ? Does it have some special significance ?

Is the message.. it's never too late to be saved by Grace through faith, not works ?

Did Jesus choose the thief for salvation (not the other way around) ?.

Was the thief chosen for this very purpose before he was even born ?
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Re: What "Faith" Did the Thief on Cross Have?

Post by thatkidakayoungguy »

Philip wrote: But that saving faith was based upon believing in the actual Jesus in front of Him - and not of some falsely constructed Jesus - whether then or many years afterward. We also know that it was widely known why He was being killed - He had asserted Himself to be God! The thief obviously knew this - Jesus was a famous guy in that area. He knew that Jesus had been accused of blasphemy. I say he believe Jesus was Who he'd claimed to be. When the thief said, " “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” WHOSE Kingdom? - Jesus' Kingdom! And the Kingdom not of this earth belonged to Whom - to God. I'd say, the thief new Jesus was God.
Not surprising, there were a number of Jews who recognized Jesus as the Messiah.

But yes it was a faith based salvation, we see it when he asks Jesus to remember him in Jesus' kingdom.
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Re: What "Faith" Did the Thief on Cross Have?

Post by Kurieuo »

There is some correlation between rational belief and heart belief, and then not to leave out the faith that the Holy Spirit produces in us. I just haven't teethed out exactly how it works, how it comes to be, except to know when I see it I'm sure that other person has it...
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)
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Re: What "Faith" Did the Thief on Cross Have?

Post by Philip »

BH: Is the message.. it's never too late to be saved by Grace through faith, not works ?
Clearly, that is one part of it. Salvation is so simple - but it is preceded by a change in one's heart and mind toward God in submission and realizing one's need for Jesus.
BH: Did Jesus choose the thief for salvation (not the other way around) ?.
Are you saying that the thief had no choice - that He was merely chosen by Jesus, and Jesus just transformed him into a believer, and changed the thief's will? No! Yes, God did choose him before time - just as He has ALL persons who will end up in Heaven - and He chose per His WILL for men. And so, what is His will? That all WHO RECEIVE (yes, He also gave them free will AND a choice) His free, unmerited, unearnable GIFT of Salvation, through Jesus sacrifice (like the thief's faith in Him), and submission to Him (that they are desiring that He become their Lord through the committing their hearts and minds to Him, (which subsequently will begin a remainder of life sanctification process of learning evermore of HOW to make Jesus Lord). It wasn't what the thief DID - it's what he suddenly developed, in His mind and heart, even in his last hours: Faith in Jesus as God. And notice the thief asked Him "to remember" him - he was accepting Jesus by calling upon Him. So, this shows us that faith is very simple, and that it is in no way works-based - as what time for works did the thief have left?
BH: Was the thief chosen for this very purpose before he was even born?
Absolutely, God orchestrates events - but He doesn't have to (and won't) violate their free will to do so. Knowing where in history and time He will place them, knowing what choices will be provided, given what people's choices will actually be (per the options they are provided) to for them to freely decide - all of these parameters God controls. He certainly influences, draws, and woos people to Himself. But God does not coerce! He allows sin. He allows rejection. But He also mandates consequences for eternal rebellion - as well as for sinful choices on earth. God simultaneously chose us first and to give us free will and the opportunity to desire Him. With God, there is no before and after choices - only choices that He has always known, in conjunction with His perfect will and knowledge of all things that will ever exist or occur.

And finally, the two thieves are a powerful illustration of the starkly different choices men are given concerning God: To choose to accept Jesus, or not to - made clear by two thieves - separated by the kind of hearts they had, in the end, with Jesus right in the middle - like a Eternal Fork in the Road - which path? The narrow one (Jesus!) or the one that leads to destruction.
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Re: What "Faith" Did the Thief on Cross Have?

Post by PaulSacramento »

Kurieuo wrote:Jesus told the thief on the cross who came to His defense that he would be in paradise with Christ.

Questions:
  • Did the thief on the cross realise God was a Trinity?
  • Did he believe Jesus was God?
  • What theological knowledge did the thief on the cross have?
  • And then finally, is there anything we can take-away from what a "saving faith" looks like through this story in the Gospels?
He believed and all those that believe ( and that means to put trust in) Jesus is Lord will be saved from judgment.
How do we know he believed?

Here, from the GOL:
39 One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him,[c] saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
The repentant thief taunts Jesus and is self-serving in his plea ( save yourself and us) BUT the repentant thief put him in his place and simply asks Jesus to remember Him in His Kingdom.
The repentant thief acknowledges his belief that Jesus is Christ and LORD.
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Re: What "Faith" Did the Thief on Cross Have?

Post by PaulSacramento »

Kind of defeats the "works based salvation" in one shot, eh?
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Re: What "Faith" Did the Thief on Cross Have?

Post by Philip »

Paul: Kind of defeats the "works based salvation" in one shot, eh?
Bingo!

Course, that works crowd would likely insist that IF the thief had lived, he'd have shown works - but after the fact, eh?

Such a powerful scene in Scripture - I'm sure most of us have imagined it in our minds. No Hollywood script could top it. And the dialogue - so minimal but emotionally powerful. Every breath of those on the crosses must have been excruciating. The thieves only know agony and what is coming afterward. One sees his only hope. The other one only mocks and seethes at his physical fate in misery and anger. The Cross is the ultimate "fork in the road" - with one of them "narrow." The one thing I wonder about is, what other interactions were spoken between Jesus and the thieves, the Romans - not a lot of chitchat, that's a certainty. At what point did the thief's eyes open to Christ?
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Re: What "Faith" Did the Thief on Cross Have?

Post by Kurieuo »

Re: "works", good draw out. Thief on the cross presents a quite a reassuring scene of what God's grace is, that it is received while we're still sinners, and not given conditionally upon the "Holy Spirit" displaying works and/or our righteous living thereafter.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)
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Re: What "Faith" Did the Thief on Cross Have?

Post by Kurieuo »

Re: rationally accepting correct doctrine, must we believe Jesus was physically resurrected, or is it enough to trust in Jesus? Given his disciples didn't even connect the dots, disbelieving in the resurrection when first told, and one even said I will not believe until placing his finger in his hands, it is fair to say the thief knew Jesus would live, but whether such was a physical resurrection. Indeed, the thief seems more insightful in some respects, than the disciples who were split and divided thereafter.

It stands to reason, the thief understood Jesus was the Son of God, and his words "Do you not fear God...", seem to heavily allude to the righteous thief knowing something of Christ's divine nature -- having a rather deep theological understanding of Christ. So he must have been quite taken by Jesus and listening to his teachings. Perhaps his previous crimes caught up with him, and eventually he was caught and put to death. Who knows, there's not too much detail.

In any case, I do feel correct understanding and the heart go together. It might be that such aren't had at the same time. I see that a more inner heart change is to be had, merely coming Christ and then there is a renewing of the mind that is both immediate and continual to perceive certain spiritual truths. Ultimately, I see, the one distinguishing factor in some who are saved, is whether or not their belief is had by the Holy Spirit. This is something we might recogonise spiritually in others, to know that they too are saved like us (like I see in many who are on this board), yet it is also something we might miss for only God knows His works being produced in others.

So far as evangelism, I think unlike the evangelical movement of the past under say Billy Graham and the like, an easy-believing step-by-step formula on how to be saved just doesn't sit right. It is all well and good for a person who has just been convicted, but then such are already ready to confess even of their own accord. The best I see that we can do as Christians evangelical-wise is to present truth and correct doctrine mixed with love and kindness. The rest is up to the Holy Spirit to work in a person's life to bring about change, and obviously the person themselves continuing to seek out God in whatever limited and pitiful way they can. Then God promises to reveal Himself as they stumble in the dark, God shows compassion and gives them the faith that they need. We never truly "convert" another person, rather God does.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)
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Re: What "Faith" Did the Thief on Cross Have?

Post by abelcainsbrother »

Philip wrote:
Paul: Kind of defeats the "works based salvation" in one shot, eh?
Bingo!

Course, that works crowd would likely insist that IF the thief had lived, he'd have shown works - but after the fact, eh?

Such a powerful scene in Scripture - I'm sure most of us have imagined it in our minds. No Hollywood script could top it. And the dialogue - so minimal but emotionally powerful. Every breath of those on the crosses must have been excruciating. The thieves only know agony and what is coming afterward. One sees his only hope. The other one only mocks and seethes at his physical fate in misery and anger. The Cross is the ultimate "fork in the road" - with one of them "narrow." The one thing I wonder about is, what other interactions were spoken between Jesus and the thieves, the Romans - not a lot of chitchat, that's a certainty. At what point did the thief's eyes open to Christ?

Here is a song by Apologetix called Ephesians it is a parody of the Hoobastank song The Reason and the lead singer explained that at one point when he was re-writing the lyrics he got stumped for awhile on one verse of the song,because he could'nt figure out how to explain we are saved by grace and not works and he came up with this that I think nails it.- I've found salvation's a tree And faith's what you use for seed But grace is the start of the roots And good deeds are just fruit.

http://www.apologetix.com/music/song.ph ... ong_id=259
The Reason
https://youtu.be/cGs8vtjDxxY

Ephesians
https://youtu.be/HxxfOEW-FGE
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.
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Re: What "Faith" Did the Thief on Cross Have?

Post by PaulSacramento »

Without the resurrection there is no salvation in Christ.
We must believe in the resurrection.
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Re: What "Faith" Did the Thief on Cross Have?

Post by Kurieuo »

PaulSacramento wrote:Without the resurrection there is no salvation in Christ.
We must believe in the resurrection.
A Christian has got to believe in a resurrection, otherwise what are they hoping in as a Christian? Yet, would the thief have known Jesus would be physically resurrected, when even the disciples weren't expecting such. He may have been perceptive enough to understand Christ given what he was recorded as saying.

Nonetheless, I ask, since some appear leery of a physical resurrection, and Hugh isn't the first I've come across. As confused and strange such Christians seem to be, those who believe in Christ yet question a physical resurrection, nonetheless hoping in Christ that they will be resurrected in the end...
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)
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