Defending the Trinity in the bible

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 17304
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Living in Parricide just north of Jacob's bosom

Re: Defending the Trinity in the bible

Postby RickD » Sun Feb 19, 2017 4:28 pm

jenna wrote:
RickD wrote:Well, either your belief OR the Trinity is unbiblical. They both could be unbiblical, but since the two beliefs are contrary to each other, they both can't be biblical.

You've already been shown multiple times, why your theology is polytheistic. The fact that you say it isn't, doesn't change that one iota.

thats funny, first i am atheist, but also polytheist. so which is it Rick? because it cant be both. do i believe in multiple gods, no God, or do i believe that there is ONE GOD, but that ONE GOD is ONE family (no polytheism there).

Jenna,

Im going to say this one more time, because you're not paying attention to what people are saying. You're asking the same questions that have already been answered.

Polytheism is basically the same as atheism. There is one God. If your theology teaches more than one God(polytheism), then in all practicality, it's not acknowledging the one God, so it's atheism. If there are more than one God, then there's really no God.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

User avatar
jenna
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1442
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:36 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Gap Theory

Re: Defending the Trinity in the bible

Postby jenna » Sun Feb 19, 2017 4:37 pm

RickD wrote:
jenna wrote:
RickD wrote:Well, either your belief OR the Trinity is unbiblical. They both could be unbiblical, but since the two beliefs are contrary to each other, they both can't be biblical.

You've already been shown multiple times, why your theology is polytheistic. The fact that you say it isn't, doesn't change that one iota.

thats funny, first i am atheist, but also polytheist. so which is it Rick? because it cant be both. do i believe in multiple gods, no God, or do i believe that there is ONE GOD, but that ONE GOD is ONE family (no polytheism there).

Jenna,

Im going to say this one more time, because you're not paying attention to what people are saying. You're asking the same questions that have already been answered.

Polytheism is basically the same as atheism. There is one God. If your theology teaches more than one God(polytheism), then in all practicality, it's not acknowledging the one God, so it's atheism. If there are more than one God, then there's really no God.

um, no. polytheism is the BELIEF in more than one god. while this is not fact, it still is a belief. complete opposite from atheism, which of course is the belief in no god.

and, you say IF my theology teaches more than one God. which it doesnt, never has, never will.
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

User avatar
Philip
Board Moderator
Posts: 5042
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:45 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Betwixt the Sea and the Mountains

Re: Defending the Trinity in the bible

Postby Philip » Sun Feb 19, 2017 7:53 pm

Philip wrote:
Jenna, do you believe that the Father is God? Do you believe the Son is God?



Jenna: yes.


So, you do agree that, at the very least, there are two persons within the ONE God? That God is a duo?

User avatar
jenna
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1442
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:36 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Gap Theory

Re: Defending the Trinity in the bible

Postby jenna » Mon Feb 20, 2017 3:54 am

Philip wrote:
Philip wrote:
Jenna, do you believe that the Father is God? Do you believe the Son is God?



Jenna: yes.


So, you do agree that, at the very least, there are two persons within the ONE God? That God is a duo?

yes. the difference is that i believe that those two are completely separate beings. just as there are two persons within ONE family.

the main problem here is that most here seem to think i believe there is more than one God, which i dont. there is ONE GOD (family), which is made up of two separate beings.
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 17304
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Living in Parricide just north of Jacob's bosom

Re: Defending the Trinity in the bible

Postby RickD » Mon Feb 20, 2017 4:28 am

jenna wrote:
Philip wrote:
Philip wrote:
Jenna, do you believe that the Father is God? Do you believe the Son is God?



Jenna: yes.


So, you do agree that, at the very least, there are two persons within the ONE God? That God is a duo?

yes. the difference is that i believe that those two are completely separate beings. just as there are two persons within ONE family.

the main problem here is that most here seem to think i believe there is more than one God, which i dont. there is ONE GOD (family), which is made up of two separate beings.

The main problem isn't what we seem to think. The problem is that you don't understand what you're actually saying. First of all, God is not "a being". He is being. He does not exist. He is existence. Second, by saying that God is two completely separate beings, that means BY DEFINITION, that the God you say you believe in, is a created being, and both created beings, have separate natures. Both of which logically lead to no God at all, hence atheism.

Again, you need to look at the logical consequences of what you say you believe, which you either refuse to do, or just don't understand.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

User avatar
Philip
Board Moderator
Posts: 5042
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:45 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Betwixt the Sea and the Mountains

Re: Defending the Trinity in the bible

Postby Philip » Mon Feb 20, 2017 6:32 am

Jenna, if you believe that two SEPARATE BEINGS are both God, then that means you necessarily believe in two separate Gods - it matters not one bit whether those two beings make up one family. Belief in more than one being who is fully God is polytheism. Period. Note the ancient gods of the Romans and Greeks - they made of families as well. God is ONE - one Being who is God. One cannot separate into two, a Being who is ONE. That is extremely different than Scriptural-based belief in the Trinity. And there are Christians who struggle with the idea that the Holy Spirit isn't God - least not in the same sense as the Father and the Son. But they still believe that these all are withing the same, one God. Yours is unquestionable polytheism!

User avatar
jenna
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1442
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:36 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Gap Theory

Re: Defending the Trinity in the bible

Postby jenna » Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:35 am

Philip wrote:Jenna, if you believe that two SEPARATE BEINGS are both God, then that means you necessarily believe in two separate Gods - it matters not one bit whether those two beings make up one family. Belief in more than one being who is fully God is polytheism. Period. Note the ancient gods of the Romans and Greeks - they made of families as well. God is ONE - one Being who is God. One cannot separate into two, a Being who is ONE. That is extremely different than Scriptural-based belief in the Trinity. And there are Christians who struggle with the idea that the Holy Spirit isn't God - least not in the same sense as the Father and the Son. But they still believe that these all are withing the same, one God. Yours is unquestionable polytheism!

no. please note John 1:1-2 Christ was God, and He was with God.
This verse clearly states two beings, ONE GOD. there is only one God, but that one is made of two beings.

two married people will make ONE FAMILY.
many fish make ONE SCHOOL.
two socks make ONE PAIR.
two members make ONE GOD.
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

User avatar
Philip
Board Moderator
Posts: 5042
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:45 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Betwixt the Sea and the Mountains

Re: Defending the Trinity in the bible

Postby Philip » Mon Feb 20, 2017 8:24 am

bJenna, no matter how you try to interpret things, you cannot change a definition. If one believes there are SEPARATE Beings that are both gods, then that is automatically the textbook definition of polytheism! Separate PERSONS in ONE God still add up to ONE God. But it is not as if you can separate the Persons of the Trinity, because they are One.

"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!"4

"I (singular) am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me (singular) there is no God."5

"The Father and I are one."

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name (singular!) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

"Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?" (which would be a natural question if there was more than one Being who is God.). Jesus is saying that is a preposterous question.

"... we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life." (not ONE of the true GODS, not A God, but THE God).

Note that there is not one Scripture that states, "WE are the GodS." EVERY reference to a number of Gods in Scripture, is but one. Persons are identified per their pronouns and roles. There is not one reference in Scripture to some supposed FAMILY of Gods. Not one. That is a major problem for those asserting there is such a family. Such assertions are polytheism. Even IF it were true, it would still be polytheism. But that is not what Scripture teaches.

User avatar
jenna
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1442
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:36 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Gap Theory

Re: Defending the Trinity in the bible

Postby jenna » Mon Feb 20, 2017 8:39 am

Philip wrote:bJenna, no matter how you try to interpret things, you cannot change a definition. If one believes there are SEPARATE Beings that are both gods, then that is automatically the textbook definition of polytheism! Separate PERSONS in ONE God still add up to ONE God. But it is not as if you can separate the Persons of the Trinity, because they are One.

"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!"4

"I (singular) am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me (singular) there is no God."5

"The Father and I are one."

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name (singular!) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

"Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?" (which would be a natural question if there was more than one Being who is God.). Jesus is saying that is a preposterous question.

"... we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life." (not ONE of the true GODS, not A God, but THE God).

Note that there is not one Scripture that states, "WE are the GodS." EVERY reference to a number of Gods in Scripture, is but one. Persons are identified per their pronouns and roles. There is not one reference in Scripture to some supposed FAMILY of Gods. Not one. That is a major problem for those asserting there is such a family. Such assertions are polytheism. Even IF it were true, it would still be polytheism. But that is not what Scripture teaches.

so basically what you are saying is that a family cannot be ONE. that two family members are two families. gotcha
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

User avatar
Philip
Board Moderator
Posts: 5042
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:45 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Betwixt the Sea and the Mountains

Re: Defending the Trinity in the bible

Postby Philip » Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:08 am

Jenna: so basically what you are saying is that a family cannot be ONE. that two family members are two families. gotcha


No Jenna, a FAMILY can and does have more than one person in it - actually, the definition of a family encompasses more than one. But your insurmountable problem is that you are supporting an unBiblical strawman version of what you say god is - that he is a family of two separate beings. Please, point me to just ONE Scripture that says there is such a family of Gods. Tell me how SEPARATE beings can both be god, and you not have polytheism. If they are separate BEINGS, then they are two different gods. And do you not know that only ONE God can have all knowledge, all power, and be infinite - otherwise, He couldn't have those things in their entirety. And both can't have all of those things. But as this appears to be a central theological belief you have, and as you cannot point to even one Scripture that points to multiple BEINGS being God, and nor can you point to one Scripture explaining that there is any supposed God FAMILY - then you have to admit that the belief doesn't come from Scripture, no matter how one much one asserts that to be the case. Saying it doesn't make it so. This means you do not believe in the God of Scripture - because there are no multiple beings that are both God. If they don't both exist per what you say about them, then you are talking about a man-made construct that doesn't exist. That is why Rick says polytheism is actually a form of atheism - a belief in a construct of god beings that don't exist. Which in reality is a belief in nothing, because it's a belief in non-existing things - whether one realizes that or not. OK, technically, it's polytheism, but the function is just as if it were atheism - as both groups believe in no existing God or gods - one that asserts that, and the other that doesn't realize it while asserting it.

User avatar
jenna
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1442
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:36 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Gap Theory

Re: Defending the Trinity in the bible

Postby jenna » Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:34 am

Philip wrote:
Jenna: so basically what you are saying is that a family cannot be ONE. that two family members are two families. gotcha


No Jenna, a FAMILY can and does have more than one person in it - actually, the definition of a family encompasses more than one. But your insurmountable problem is that you are supporting an unBiblical strawman version of what you say god is - that he is a family of two separate beings. Please, point me to just ONE Scripture that says there is such a family of Gods. Tell me how SEPARATE beings can both be god, and you not have polytheism. If they are separate BEINGS, then they are two different gods. And do you not know that only ONE God can have all knowledge, all power, and be infinite - otherwise, He couldn't have those things in their entirety. And both can't have all of those things. But as this appears to be a central theological belief you have, and as you cannot point to even one Scripture that points to multiple BEINGS being God, and nor can you point to one Scripture explaining that there is any supposed God FAMILY - then you have to admit that the belief doesn't come from Scripture, no matter how one much one asserts that to be the case. Saying it doesn't make it so. This means you do not believe in the God of Scripture - because there are no multiple beings that are both God. If they don't both exist per what you say about them, then you are talking about a man-made construct that doesn't exist. That is why Rick says polytheism is actually a form of atheism - a belief in a construct of god beings that don't exist. Which in reality is a belief in nothing, because it's a belief in non-existing things - whether one realizes that or not. OK, technically, it's polytheism, but the function is just as if it were atheism - as both groups believe in no existing God or gods - one that asserts that, and the other that doesn't realize it while asserting it.

you want me to tell you how separate beings can both be God, when i have already done so. John 1:1 tells us that Christ was God and He was WITH God. This verse in itself says there are two separate beings. one being cannot be WITH another being, if He is already that being. If Christ and God the Father are one being, then they cannot be with each other. also, the verses that say "Let US make man in OUR image", says that there is more than one being, unless you think God talks to Himself. AND if Christ and God the father are the same being, how did Christ separate Himself from Himself, come to earth, resurrect Himself, and then go to be at the right hand of Himself? And why did Christ say He is not equal to the Father if they are the same being?

the simple answer is these things are possible with two separate beings. One God, two beings. its called logic.
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

User avatar
Philip
Board Moderator
Posts: 5042
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:45 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Betwixt the Sea and the Mountains

Re: Defending the Trinity in the bible

Postby Philip » Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:22 pm

Jenna: If Christ and God the Father are one being, then they cannot be with each other.


They can if they are both persons that inhabit the same Being!

Jenna: also, the verses that say "Let US make man in OUR image", says that there is more than one being, unless you think God talks to Himself.


The pronouns all point to three persons with individual roles, and never are two actual beings referred to. God is not us - we cannot easily understand what God is, but He is not a person just like we are - He is Holy, set apart, there are none like Him.

The problem, Jenna, is you are reading these verses through your own theological beliefs of how to interpret them. Again, where are we told there are two beings who are God???!!! Where are we told there is some kind of God family? NOWHERE, that what. Only by reading into such passages can you arrive at such an interpretation.

Jenna: AND if Christ and God the father are the same being, how did Christ separate Himself from Himself, come to earth, resurrect Himself, and then go to be at the right hand of Himself? And why did Christ say He is not equal to the Father if they are the same being?

Do not confuse Jesus as He was in His Incarnation on earth so as to also become fully human. During the incarnation, Jesus was temporarily “made lower than the angels” (Hebrews 2:9), which refers to Jesus’ status. That is not to say that Jesus wasn't also fully divine/fully God. When you look at Philippians 2:5-11, we see that the second Person of the Trinity took on human form, and that Christ “made himself nothing.” This means Jesus voluntarily relinquished the prerogative of freely exercising His divine attributes while on earth. Again, the Persons of God's Trinity have different roles, but are of one will, authority and essence What Jenna suggests is that two different beings are fully one God, but that they are unequal in some way - that makes no sense at all, as there can only be one God, and unequal separate beings cannot be equal Gods.

Let us also not forget that the "right hand of God is figurative of God's authority and the agent of that (Jesus). God is spirit. The Father does not have a body, the Son does. But the Son, before being born into the world, likewise, once did not have a physical body, while inhabiting the same Spirit of the One God, but took on the cloak of humanity, in which His Spirit became a baby and fully human. So God, who is Spirit, cloaked Himself in humanity, per the Personage of the Son. So God, in His personage of Jesus, the Son, became a new physical addition (and forever more) to how God now manifests Himself. So, be careful in how you interpret "the right hand of God," in how that relates to what Jesus is. If Jesus were subservient, positionally, then He could not also be fully God as the Father is.

But the bigger issue is, there are no Scriptures that teach multiple beings being God, nor some such God family. I keep waiting on some clear passage of either one, but all I'm seeing are assertions based upon a certain theological belief.

User avatar
jenna
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1442
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:36 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Gap Theory

Re: Defending the Trinity in the bible

Postby jenna » Mon Feb 20, 2017 2:05 pm

Philip wrote:
Jenna: If Christ and God the Father are one being, then they cannot be with each other.


They can if they are both persons that inhabit the same Being!

Jenna: also, the verses that say "Let US make man in OUR image", says that there is more than one being, unless you think God talks to Himself.


The pronouns all point to three persons with individual roles, and never are two actual beings referred to. God is not us - we cannot easily understand what God is, but He is not a person just like we are - He is Holy, set apart, there are none like Him.

The problem, Jenna, is you are reading these verses through your own theological beliefs of how to interpret them. Again, where are we told there are two beings who are God???!!! Where are we told there is some kind of God family? NOWHERE, that what. Only by reading into such passages can you arrive at such an interpretation.

Jenna: AND if Christ and God the father are the same being, how did Christ separate Himself from Himself, come to earth, resurrect Himself, and then go to be at the right hand of Himself? And why did Christ say He is not equal to the Father if they are the same being?

Do not confuse Jesus as He was in His Incarnation on earth so as to also become fully human. During the incarnation, Jesus was temporarily “made lower than the angels” (Hebrews 2:9), which refers to Jesus’ status. That is not to say that Jesus wasn't also fully divine/fully God. When you look at Philippians 2:5-11, we see that the second Person of the Trinity took on human form, and that Christ “made himself nothing.” This means Jesus voluntarily relinquished the prerogative of freely exercising His divine attributes while on earth. Again, the Persons of God's Trinity have different roles, but are of one will, authority and essence What Jenna suggests is that two different beings are fully one God, but that they are unequal in some way - that makes no sense at all, as there can only be one God, and unequal separate beings cannot be equal Gods.

Let us also not forget that the "right hand of God is figurative of God's authority and the agent of that (Jesus). God is spirit. The Father does not have a body, the Son does. But the Son, before being born into the world, likewise, once did not have a physical body, while inhabiting the same Spirit of the One God, but took on the cloak of humanity, in which His Spirit became a baby and fully human. So God, who is Spirit, cloaked Himself in humanity, per the Personage of the Son. So God, in His personage of Jesus, the Son, became a new physical addition (and forever more) to how God now manifests Himself. So, be careful in how you interpret "the right hand of God," in how that relates to what Jesus is. If Jesus were subservient, positionally, then He could not also be fully God as the Father is.

But the bigger issue is, there are no Scriptures that teach multiple beings being God, nor some such God family. I keep waiting on some clear passage of either one, but all I'm seeing are assertions based upon a certain theological belief.

ok, you say that Christ and God the father both inhabit one being. so, is this like some sort of split-personality?
and you say the second person of the trinity (Christ) took on human form. so how can Christ separate Himself from Himself if there is only one being? this was never really answered, nor were my other points.
the true biggest issue is that, while there are passages that state God is One, there are NONE that state God is ONE BEING.
John 17:22 says that the believers are one, as Christ and God the Father are. if this passage is to be interpreted with the trinity belief, then all the believers are one being. is this the way you see it?
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 17304
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Living in Parricide just north of Jacob's bosom

Re: Defending the Trinity in the bible

Postby RickD » Mon Feb 20, 2017 2:26 pm

Jenna,

Again, I point you to this paper by Jac:
https://cmmorrison.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/makingdivinesimplicitysimple1.pdf

Pretty much all of your questions, and the confusion is addressed there. This conversation is just going to go around in circles, until you understand some basics addressed in Jac's book.


It's explained far better in Jac's book. So rather than trying to rewrite what Jac already did a great job of writing, you're best bet is to just read the book, and ask questions if you need to.

Now go do your homework! :D
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

User avatar
Philip
Board Moderator
Posts: 5042
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:45 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Betwixt the Sea and the Mountains

Re: Defending the Trinity in the bible

Postby Philip » Mon Feb 20, 2017 2:45 pm

Jenna, seriously, as Rick asked, please do read that. We're sincerely not trying to gang up on you, personally. But this is really important. Copy and paste various parts of what Jac wrote, and we can all discuss.


Return to “Christian Theology”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests