Understanding the Trinity

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
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Jac3510
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Re: Understanding the Trinity

Postby Jac3510 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:00 pm

the beast and false prophets are humans. THEY -- those humans -- will be punished forever and ever, tormented without end
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue

And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Understanding the Trinity

Postby Jac3510 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:01 pm

RickD wrote:
Jac3510 wrote:Games over parts of speech aside, Rev 20:10 proves the point: "they [the devil, beast, and false prophet] will be tormented day and night forever and ever." That's eternal punishing. No burning up and out of existence.

But Jenna's argument is that's only for the devil, beast, and false prophet. Not for people.

Again, the beast and false prophet are humans.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue

And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Understanding the Trinity

Postby crochet1949 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:04 pm

Jenna -- but they Will continue to burn for ever because that is what Scripture says will happen. We have trouble accepting that a loving, merciful God would allow for such suffering -- to go on forever and forever. But That harsh punishing Is meant to go on and on but only for satan, the false prophet and the beast. They deserve it because God says they do. The cross of Christ -- bridging the gap between our sinfulness and God -- is meant only for people. He has given us a way to escape Their doom.

The Punishment IS Eternal Punishing.

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Re: Understanding the Trinity

Postby jenna » Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:19 pm

Jac3510 wrote:the beast and false prophets are humans. THEY -- those humans -- will be punished forever and ever, tormented without end

actually, no they arent. not going into it now though. maybe tomorrow when i have more time.
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: Understanding the Trinity

Postby RickD » Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:20 pm

Jac3510 wrote:the beast and false prophets are humans. THEY -- those humans -- will be punished forever and ever, tormented without end

They cannot be humans, because Jenna says that humans can't be punished for ever and ever.

Oh wait, they can be punished for ever and ever. They just can't endure punishing for ever and ever.

My bad.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

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St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Understanding the Trinity

Postby RickD » Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:21 pm

jenna wrote:
Jac3510 wrote:the beast and false prophets are humans. THEY -- those humans -- will be punished forever and ever, tormented without end

actually, no they arent. not going into it now though. maybe tomorrow when i have more time.

Waiting with bated breath.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Understanding the Trinity

Postby Jac3510 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:47 pm

I'm not. Waiting. Much less with bated breath. The beast and false prophet aren't human. It's laughable. Besides, she has a tendancy not to follow through, anyway.

But, regardless, this is why these discussions are actually helpful. If anyone actually reads this, they'll see how far someone has to go to maintain their position. Eventually, the ridiculousness is so obvious that it works as its own deterrant.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue

And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Understanding the Trinity

Postby jenna » Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:02 pm

Jac3510 wrote:I'm not. Waiting. Much less with bated breath. The beast and false prophet aren't human. It's laughable. Besides, she has a tendancy not to follow through, anyway.

But, regardless, this is why these discussions are actually helpful. If anyone actually reads this, they'll see how far someone has to go to maintain their position. Eventually, the ridiculousness is so obvious that it works as its own deterrant.

so now i am ridiculous, laughable, and dont follow through? i was going to follow up with this later, but since you say i do not, i will just put a few things out there.
there are 2 beasts described in the bible, one in Revelations and one in Daniel.
Revelation 17:8 describes a beast that ascends out of a bottomless pit, and is ridden by a woman. Revelation 13:1-2 describes a beast that has seven heads and ten horns, and upon the horns ten crowns. it was like unto a leopard, feet like a bear, and the mouth like that of a lion. it was given power by the dragon, wounded almost to death, healed, and the world wondered after it, and worshiped it.
This depiction cannot possibly refer to a literal man.
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: Understanding the Trinity

Postby Jac3510 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:11 pm

jenna wrote:so now i am ridiculous, laughable,

No, your positions are ridiculous and laughable, as is your poor attempt to deal with what I actually said. As is your habit, you don't actually respond to what people believe but rather silly inventions of your own.

and dont follow through?

It's been your habit not to.

i was going to follow up with this later, but since you say i do not, i will just put a few things out there.
there are 2 beasts described in the bible, one in Revelations and one in Daniel. Revelation 17:8 describes a beast that ascends out of a bottomless pit, and is ridden by a woman. Revelation 13:1-2 describes a beast that has seven heads and ten horns, and upon the horns ten crowns. it was like unto a leopard, feet like a bear, and the mouth like that of a lion. it was given power by the dragon, wounded almost to death, healed, and the world wondered after it, and worshiped it.
This depiction cannot possibly refer to a literal man.

Of course they can, and they do. Incredulity is not a substitute for argument. But just for fun, pray tell, if these descriptions can't refer to a man, what can they refer to? Obviously not an institution. Not an idea. Not a belief. So, what? To nothing at all?

Are you not aware that in Daniel more exotic imagery than that is used to refer to a literal man?
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue

And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Understanding the Trinity

Postby jenna » Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:33 pm

Jac3510 wrote:
jenna wrote:so now i am ridiculous, laughable,

No, your positions are ridiculous and laughable, as is your poor attempt to deal with what I actually said. As is your habit, you don't actually respond to what people believe but rather silly inventions of your own.

and dont follow through?

It's been your habit not to.

i was going to follow up with this later, but since you say i do not, i will just put a few things out there.
there are 2 beasts described in the bible, one in Revelations and one in Daniel. Revelation 17:8 describes a beast that ascends out of a bottomless pit, and is ridden by a woman. Revelation 13:1-2 describes a beast that has seven heads and ten horns, and upon the horns ten crowns. it was like unto a leopard, feet like a bear, and the mouth like that of a lion. it was given power by the dragon, wounded almost to death, healed, and the world wondered after it, and worshiped it.
This depiction cannot possibly refer to a literal man.

Jac3510 wrote:Of course they can, and they do.

***oh really? what human man would you say this is? y:-?

Jac3510 wrote: Incredulity is not a substitute for argument. But just for fun, pray tell, if these descriptions can't refer to a man, what can they refer to? Obviously not an institution. Not an idea. Not a belief. So, what? To nothing at all?

***no, they are referring to an empire.
Jac3510 wrote:Are you not aware that in Daniel more exotic imagery than that is used to refer to a literal man?

i am aware of Daniel, as i mentioned it above. what human man is referred to in such exotic imagery? none. it is all symbolic.

messed up somewhat, not sure what i did, but my responses are marked with ***
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: Understanding the Trinity

Postby Jac3510 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:55 pm

jenna wrote: ***oh really? what human man would you say this is? y:-?

The one called the Antichrist and his false prophet, of course.

***no, they are referring to an empire.

Impossible, by your standards. Empires can't be ridden by women or have horns.

i am aware of Daniel, as i mentioned it above. what human man is referred to in such exotic imagery? none. it is all symbolic.

Alexander the Great
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue

And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Understanding the Trinity

Postby Jac3510 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:01 pm

Furthermore, it is ridiculous to suggest than an empire can be thrown into a lake of fire with Satan and be tormented forever and ever. The beast and the false prophets are men, jenna.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue

And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Understanding the Trinity

Postby jenna » Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:02 pm

Jac3510 wrote:
jenna wrote: ***oh really? what human man would you say this is? y:-?

The one called the Antichrist and his false prophet, of course.

***no, they are referring to an empire.

Impossible, by your standards. Empires can't be ridden by women or have horns.

i am aware of Daniel, as i mentioned it above. what human man is referred to in such exotic imagery? none. it is all symbolic.

Alexander the Great

again, nothing much said here. no statement as to how they could be anything more than symbolism. as for the woman, she is a symbol too, but i suppose you find that ridiculous as well.
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: Understanding the Trinity

Postby jenna » Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:04 pm

Jac3510 wrote:Furthermore, it is ridiculous to suggest than an empire can be thrown into a lake of fire with Satan and be tormented forever and ever. The beast and the false prophets are men, jenna.

you have yet to show how they could be men. the beast and the false prophet are symbolism of the real thing, just like the dragon is symbol of Satan.
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: Understanding the Trinity

Postby PaulSacramento » Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:49 am

RickD wrote:
Jac3510 wrote:Games over parts of speech aside, Rev 20:10 proves the point: "they [the devil, beast, and false prophet] will be tormented day and night forever and ever." That's eternal punishing. No burning up and out of existence.

But Jenna's argument is that's only for the devil, beast, and false prophet. Not for people.


That is not consistent with scripture.
Nowhere is it stated that, in the Lake of Fire, some will have eternal punishment and others will not.


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