God- Chess Master

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
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PaulSacramento
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God- Chess Master

#1

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:40 am

I read this over on Patheos, it was a review by Ben Witherington of Michael Heiser's book, The Unseen realm ( a very good review/interview by Ben with Mike):

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/bibleandcu ... art-seven/
BEN: Here’s one of my favorite quotes from the book—– —“If God foreknows some event that happens then he may have predestined that event. But the fact that he foreknew an event does not require its predestination if it happens…. Since foreknowledge doesn’t require predestination, foreknown events that happen may or may not have been predestined.” (p. 65). So which events do you think are predestined by God? Presumably not sin and evil.
MIKE: Agreed. I don’t think God causatively predestines wickedness. Evil is what it is because lesser beings abuse God’s good gift of freedom. I’d have to be omniscient to go beyond that. I think the New Testament makes clear that God does step into human affairs when he wants to for whatever reason he wants to (Paul’s conversion). But I don’t think that’s the norm (but have no specific basis for that idea – it’s just an impression). Given that, it means that God is constantly engaged in our lives and human affairs in term of using circumstances, events and acts (good and evil), mistakes, words spoken or unspoken, divine agents, his Spirit, etc. to influence people toward redemption and the furtherance of his kingdom. I like to use the chess analogy for all this. What’s more impressive—the chess player (God) who looks at his opponent from across the board and says “You’re going to lose because I’ve predestined all your moves,” or the one who says “You can move wherever you like, I’m going to win no matter what”? God doesn’t need to predestine everything to have his way. Our God is that big.
I liked this part:
What’s more impressive—the chess player (God) who looks at his opponent from across the board and says “You’re going to lose because I’ve predestined all your moves,” or the one who says “You can move wherever you like, I’m going to win no matter what”? God doesn’t need to predestine everything to have his way. Our God is that big.
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Danieltwotwenty (Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:38 pm)

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Re: God- Chess Master

#2

Post by BigHamster » Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:19 pm

I have read similar analogies that describe what you have mentioned (which, IMHO, applies more so for those under grace). Part of me hopes/knows that to be correct.

For example, I know god wants me to do certain things but I ain't budging. I call my disease "residual old-life syndrome". Can God break my old ways and get me to my next destination ? I think he can. :ewink:


"The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases”
- Proverbs 21:1

“The lot's cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD”
- Proverbs 16:33

Danieltwotwenty
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Re: God- Chess Master

#3

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:41 pm

I think that is a very interesting take on it but leaves me with a question.

If the end game (desire of) so to speak of God is to lovingly draw all humans to himself and if God always wins in the end, wouldn't people going to hell mean God lost?

Edit. Myself leaning towards purgatorial universalism I think it is quite a good analogy.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

PaulSacramento
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Re: God- Chess Master

#4

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Sep 28, 2016 5:11 am

Danieltwotwenty wrote:I think that is a very interesting take on it but leaves me with a question.

If the end game (desire of) so to speak of God is to lovingly draw all humans to himself and if God always wins in the end, wouldn't people going to hell mean God lost?

Edit. Myself leaning towards purgatorial universalism I think it is quite a good analogy.
By making humans in His image, God gives humans the right, the free will, to decide their fate and KNOWING very well that some will decide against Love.
God would only "lose" is He removed choice and freewill.
Of course when we speaking of winning and losing we are using analogies to help understand BUT it is NOT a game.
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Danieltwotwenty (Wed Sep 28, 2016 5:43 am)

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Re: God- Chess Master

#5

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:17 pm

I think you misunderstood what I was saying.

If God always wins and his desire is to be in a loving relationship with us he doesn't have to violate freewill to do so, he knows all the moves we can make and he knows which ones he can make so that he always wins in the end. Does that make more sense, God isn't violating freewill he just knows which moves to make to bring everyone into relationship with him.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: God- Chess Master

#6

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Sep 29, 2016 5:57 am

Danieltwotwenty wrote:I think you misunderstood what I was saying.

If God always wins and his desire is to be in a loving relationship with us he doesn't have to violate freewill to do so, he knows all the moves we can make and he knows which ones he can make so that he always wins in the end. Does that make more sense, God isn't violating freewill he just knows which moves to make to bring everyone into relationship with him.
Yes, I understand what you mean now.
The sad thing is also knowing that some will choose to NOT be in a relationship with Him, will NOT choose love.
One of the hardest things I had to grasp what that some will actively choose NOT to be in a relationship with God.
Then I started frequenting websites dedicated to atheism ( not the moderate, fair position that is more agnostic than atheist, but atheism that tries to get people to NOT believe) and I saw, I read, the HATE and I understood.
Painfully, I understood.
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neo-x (Wed Oct 05, 2016 1:22 am)

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Re: God- Chess Master

#7

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:00 pm

That is pretty much the conclusion I came to also, I believe in purgatorial universalism with a reservation for those the choose no. If we take it back to your chess analogy I would see it as the player refusing to make a move and the game becomes locked in a quasi checkmate.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: God- Chess Master

#8

Post by neo-x » Wed Oct 05, 2016 1:20 am

I remember reading this by Lewis, "The gates of hell are locked from the inside."
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


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Re: God- Chess Master

#9

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Oct 05, 2016 4:55 am

neo-x wrote:I remember reading this by Lewis, "The gates of hell are locked from the inside."
Yes, they truly are.
It is really hard for a believer to grasp that and that is why universalism is popular because deep down we all think that people DO want to be saved, to be immersed in His love BUT the reality is that some do not.
We KNOW that God WOULD gave all the chance but we forget that some simply will NOT take and that God KNOWS who they are and WHY they won't.
It is heart breaking though.

I mean, why wouldn't someone WANT to be in a relationship with God? to feel and experience that love?
Then I look around and see people smoking, knowing taking into themselves something that can kill them,painfully.
I see the drugs and I see people going out of their way to do bad to themselves and those they love and I realize that all too painful realization that:
Some people just want to see the world burn.
Their world, The world, all of it.
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neo-x (Wed Oct 05, 2016 9:01 am)

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Re: God- Chess Master

#10

Post by RickD » Wed Oct 05, 2016 5:01 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
neo-x wrote:I remember reading this by Lewis, "The gates of hell are locked from the inside."
Yes, they truly are.
It is really hard for a believer to grasp that and that is why universalism is popular because deep down we all think that people DO want to be saved, to be immersed in His love BUT the reality is that some do not.
We KNOW that God WOULD gave all the chance but we forget that some simply will NOT take and that God KNOWS who they are and WHY they won't.
It is heart breaking though.

I mean, why wouldn't someone WANT to be in a relationship with God? to feel and experience that love?
Then I look around and see people smoking, knowing taking into themselves something that can kill them,painfully.
I see the drugs and I see people going out of their way to do bad to themselves and those they love and I realize that all too painful realization that:
Some people just want to see the world burn.
Their world, The world, all of it.
That's why Christian universalism is such a dangerous doctrine. It's an "itching ears" doctrine.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


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Re: God- Chess Master

#11

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Oct 05, 2016 5:32 am

Speaking from a pure scriptural standpoint on what is explicit ( not implied):

Believers are saved from judgment ( not death of course since we all die) (John 5)
Non-believers will be resurrected and judged based on their works and saved if their names are in the book of life ( Matthew, Revelation).

I think that is where universalism comes in, to a degree, that ALL people will have a "chance" at salvation.
That said, it seems to me ( based on the experience of what I see) that those that do not believe NOW ( in life) will NOT believe in death nor at the resurrection.
Now, by that I mean NOT that they won't believe in God at the resurrection ( they will have to of course) BUT that they will not believe that they did anything wrong, they will not ACCEPT salvation.

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