Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#661

Post by crochet1949 » Thu Oct 06, 2016 9:32 am

Our faith comes from God / hearing His Word. We do Not have faith on our own. Everything we need for salvation comes from God. Because Before our salvation, we were Dead spiritually. By Grace we are saved through faith.

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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#662

Post by jpbg33 » Thu Oct 06, 2016 10:20 am

So are you saying that we have no part in our salvation at all.

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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#663

Post by B. W. » Thu Oct 06, 2016 10:55 am

Jpbg33,

Please attain some bible software and just do a causal Greek study on the word order of John 3:36. As of now, you are not presenting yourself in a good light on this thread. I actually feel pity in this. Bible says a wise man or woman heeds wise counsel so I suggest you take a few months to study this one verse from the Greek without any presuppositions attached...

With that Jpbg33, here is your First Greek Lesson - Please Translate this:

John 3:36 ο πιστευων εις τον υιον εχει ζωην αιωνιον / ο δε απειθων τω υιω ουκ οψεται ζωην αλλ η οργη του θεου μενει επ αυτον...

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Here is my Translation below:

He/she believes in the Son (possesses as property) life eternal. /

He/she [on the other hand] not [allowing oneself to be persuaded (ie per context) to possess as property] the/that Son, will not see (but - counter wise) that one - wrath!! of God stays!!! imposed!! on (that one) !!!

+++Notes+++

Please note I added the !!! more for the power of the Greek text into English so folks can see what is being said as NT Greek does not use explanation marks...

In this same chapter, for example in John 3:15, the same Greek word is used - πιστευων - and is translated - believes - in many English bible texts.

The context clarifies the shade of meaning of word – believes – in John 3:14 – which is as follows: Believes in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus. Better stated the context of chapter three by what Jesus said indicates fully those who - attaches oneself onto Jesus’ work of the cross will find life abundant never ending. see John 3:14,15

Notice John 3:18-21 as well as it clearly implies two sets of very different people in the context. Clearly the author, John the Apostle, would not change that tone in verse 36 in the least.

This is all about attaching oneself towards the inside work of Jesus on the cross – note John 3:14,15 again - those that do are born again. This is line with what Paul Peter, Hebrews, also spoke about on this matter.

This is in line with John 10:27,28,29,30 as well as John 10:11 and this verse quoted below:

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. NASB

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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#664

Post by RickD » Thu Oct 06, 2016 11:01 am

B. W.,

With your interpretation, aren't you making the case for what jpbg has been attempting to argue here? What I mean, is that you say that in John 3:36, that if one believes, one has eternal life as property.

If eternal life is property, such as a house, car, etc., then why can't one give back that property?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#665

Post by B. W. » Thu Oct 06, 2016 11:37 am

RickD wrote:B. W.,

With your interpretation, aren't you making the case for what jpbg has been attempting to argue here? What I mean, is that you say that in John 3:36, that if one believes, one has eternal life as property.

If eternal life is property, such as a house, car, etc., then why can't one give back that property?

No - not agreeing with him at all... because of the context of Chapter 3 and the rest of the bible proves this:

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. NKJV

When one becomes born again ie born of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit takes residence inside our house (body - temple). We become his property. Salvation is a free gift from God and God reneges on no gift. John 6:37 is true to the fullest sense of the word!

I also did not add the meaning of believe in the translation I quickly did, i suggest those reading do that on their own.

The "property" of eternal life is God's "property" to give all by the new birth of the Spirit - John 6:37 remains true.

There are several ways to translate the word "Has" or "Have" in John 3:36 the basic idea is (to have it) hence posses the gift of eternal abundant life from God - has it as a possession because the Holy Spirit by the new birth indwells a believer. God is more than able to keep those that trust in the work of the cross secure in him, John 3:14,15.

Notice in the context John 3:18-21 mentions two separate sets of folks (saved and unsaved) - John 3:36 must contain that thought as well as it follows the same line of thought.

The topic of Jesus' work on the cross is a another subject and I used that term knowing many folks grasp what I mean but for those that do not then explore each verse in Romans 10:9-17... to find out.

jpgb33 is wrong in his interpretation of John 3:36 as Jac points out. Period.

When God gives a person His "born again gift" he will never cast that person away. They cannot give it away either nor toss it away. They are sealed forever His and thus begins the process of sanctification which again is another topic altogether.

I saw a person go through living hell thinking he lost his salvation and tried so hard to earn it back then thought he blasphemed the Holy Spirit, then attempted suicide. Partly impart because in my ignorance I once taught LYS to him. That taught me a lesson I never forget and game changer. Thankfully the kid is still alive today. So out of respect for me and what I went through, please Rick, do not attempt to play word games with me for whatever reason.

Never again will I ever teach LYS ever again. The bible does not teach that. LYS leads to confused people, and some give up on life because of it, let us not forget this... period.

:amen:
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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#666

Post by jpbg33 » Thu Oct 06, 2016 11:44 am

I have translated it and it dose say that if you believe on the son then you have everlasting life and then says if you don't obey the son then you will not see like but the wrath of God.

I did not lean Greek my self but used online translators. when they translated it it was a little hard to read but you could read most of it if you used a good translator.

in Greek it was showing the difference in some one who believes and some one who didn't that is why the King James is written like it is.

it was a little different then the King James bible and more like the bible on this web site, But all in all they are saying the same thing. The King James is just clarifying what obey means. Jesus told us to believe so obeying him would mean you believe.

all and all they are saying the same thing.

after all of that I still hold to what I said about that verse

if I believe when I read that verse I see my self on that side and it I do not believe when I read that verse I see my self on the other side. if I stop believing in Jesus then read that verse I can not see my self on the first part because I do not believe but I see my self on the other side where it says I don't obey.

I can not read that as a unbeliever and see my self on the first part.
Last edited by jpbg33 on Thu Oct 06, 2016 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#667

Post by RickD » Thu Oct 06, 2016 11:46 am

Bryan,

I wasn't trying to play word games with you. I know you believe we can't lose our salvation. I just wanted you to clarify what you wrote, so nobody would think that you were saying that we can "give back" eternal life. Believe me. The last thing I want is for jpbg to misread you, like he does scripture, and claim you are agreeing with him.

So, please forgiveth me milord. I come to you in sackcloth and ashes. :mrgreen:
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#668

Post by RickD » Thu Oct 06, 2016 11:49 am

jpbg33 wrote:I have translated it and it dose say that if you believe on the son then you have everlasting life and then says if you don't obey the son then you will not see like but the wrath of God.

I did not lean Greek my self but used online translators. when they translated it it was a little hard to read but you could read most of it if you used a good translator.

in Greek it was showing the difference in some one who believes and some one who didn't that is why the King James is written like it is.

it was a little different then the King James bible and more like the bible on this web site, But all in all they are saying the same thing. The King James is just clarifying what obey means. Jesus told us to believe so obeying him would mean you believe.

all and all they are saying the same thing.

after all of that I still hold to what I said about that verse

if I believe when I read that verse I see my self on that side and it I do not believe when I read that verse I see my self on the other side. if I stop believing in Jesus then read that verse I can not see my self on the first part because I do not believe but I see my self on the other side where it says I don't obey.

I can not read that as a unbeliever and see my self on the first part.
Good grief man!

What a horrible way to go through life. Thinking that you have to keep the faith in order to remain saved. Must be a horrible, stressful way to go about life.

Thank God I don't have to trust in myself in order to keep salvation.

God is faithful. He will keep His promises.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#669

Post by jpbg33 » Thu Oct 06, 2016 12:04 pm

the big problem you have believing osas. you can never know if you are saved that way. We both know the bible says that just because you say you believe doesn't mean you believe.

So how do you know that you are saved according to osas you may just think you are saved. You may not even be saved at all.

think of it this way after all this you die wind up in hell thinking how did I get here I believed. then you here God say no you didn't you just though you believed.

That to me sound like the worst way to live.

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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#670

Post by AreEl » Thu Oct 06, 2016 12:15 pm

jpbg33...

What about Lot? Lot is called a righteous man (2 Peter 2:6-9) yet we know from the testimony of Scripture that he got drunk at least twice AND had sex with both his daughters. Genesis 19:22 confirms that Lot was seen as righteous before his incestuous trysts and the 2nd Peter verses confirm that Lot is still righteous in God's eye.

Lot's story is a pretty good argument for OSAS.

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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#671

Post by jpbg33 » Thu Oct 06, 2016 12:30 pm

no one was saved back then there sins were just road back

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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#672

Post by crochet1949 » Thu Oct 06, 2016 12:35 pm

jpbg33 wrote:So are you saying that we have no part in our salvation at all.
I could feel when the Holy Spirit was convicting me of my need for salvation. I remember doing a lot of squirming in my seat at church and feeling somewhat depressed at home. Our pastor preached one Sunday that if a person isn't sure of his/her salvation -- which I wasn't -- I'd Heard /been taught Scripture and knew in my head 'all about it' -- but I Finally talked to God about my not being sure of my salvation. And Then I felt a wonderful inner peace that hadn't been there before. I talked in detail to Him.
So -- He 'calls' and we 'respond'. And HE is the Only One who knows who will accept or reject Him.
So -- it would seem that there are a lot of people 'out there' who have / are experiencing the convicting power of the Holy Spirit but might not even realize it --they are confused, frustrated people. Bible isn't really taught, preached the way it should be. But those who Are called Will come to Him. Sooner or later. And once the Holy Spirit is dwelling within a person He Won't leave until the person is safe with Jesus Christ for eternity.

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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#673

Post by RickD » Thu Oct 06, 2016 12:37 pm

jpbg wrote:
the big problem you have believing osas. you can never know if you are saved that way. We both know the bible says that just because you say you believe doesn't mean you believe.
The Bible says if you believe, you have eternal life. There's no way around that.

OSAS only applies to those who believe. As it's only those who believe, who are saved, it doesn't apply to those who don't believe. I really thought that was obvious.
So how do you know that you are saved according to osas you may just think you are saved. You may not even be saved at all.
What in the world are you talking about? According to OSAS, I may just think I'm saved, but not actually be saved?
Do you even know what you are arguing against? I am saved by grace, through faith in Christ. Period. OSAS says that once someone believes, he is saved, and nothing can change that. OSAS doesn't say that people who think they are saved, but haven't believed in Christ, are always saved.
That's absurd!
think of it this way after all this you die wind up in hell thinking how did I get here I believed. then you here God say no you didn't you just though you believed.
Good God man! Do you even know how to form a cogent thought?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#674

Post by crochet1949 » Thu Oct 06, 2016 12:45 pm

jpbg33 wrote:the big problem you have believing osas. you can never know if you are saved that way. We both know the bible says that just because you say you believe doesn't mean you believe.

So how do you know that you are saved according to osas you may just think you are saved. You may not even be saved at all.

think of it this way after all this you die wind up in hell thinking how did I get here I believed. then you here God say no you didn't you just though you believed.

That to me sound like the worst way to live.
1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
Romans 10:9 and 10. We believe in our heart and confess with our mouth.

Why are you 'fighting' this so much. Unless you simply like the attention.

God gives a peace that surpasses anything a person can experience inwardly.

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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

#675

Post by RickD » Thu Oct 06, 2016 12:49 pm

Jpbg,

Your posts lead me to ask you this...

Have you trusted Christ for salvation?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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