why i stopped talking in tongues

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Re: why i stopped talking in tongues

Postby PeteSinCA » Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:51 am

RickD wrote:Pete,

Have you looked anymore into MacArthur and lordship salvation, and how MacArthur conflates salvation and discipleship?

I read the links you provided, and they were helpful. I think I mentioned that my (limited) familiarity with MacArthur was from the late '70s and/or early '80s, well before the Lordship-salvation controversy. I think you sum up the problem rather well, "MacArthur conflates salvation and discipleship". I think MacArthur was/is pointing at a real problem, but misunderstanding both its roots and its solution. In Matthew 28:19-20, Jesus makes pretty clear that "making disciples" is a process, encompassing evangelizing through teaching believers what Jesus wants them to be. Thus, the process can be spoken of as a single thing - you know, making disciples - but it is punctuated by certain events: telling some one about Jesus; the person first professing faith in Jesus; baptism; learning the Christian faith (a sub-process of numerous "events"). Evangelical-Fundamental churches tend to put a lot of emphasis and energy into sharing the Gospel, persuading people to profess faith in Jesus, and baptism. But the process of discipling is haphazard - maybe sermons, maybe Sunday School, maybe seminars and conferences, maybe Bible College or seminary. The information is "out there", but not in an organized systematic way; and mentoring-accountability is even more haphazard and ad hoc, if done at all.

The solution isn't to go legalistic - that's too easy and wrong - but to become better at (or to start!) discipling new believers. And that's tedious, time-consuming, and doesn't easily satisfy our taste for statistics (XXX conversions this year; YYY recommitments this year; ZZZ baptized this year).
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Re: why i stopped talking in tongues

Postby PeteSinCA » Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:38 am

Philip wrote:Pete, all that is great, your scriptural analysis. And I'm not saying that tongues are DEFINITELY not for now/modern times.


That's a curious statement, as just a few posts previous to this one you posted a link to a webpage that claims and claims to proves that speaking in tongues ended when the New Testament was completed. Did you post it without taking its claim seriously?

At any rate, my good-faith summary (hopefully, accurate and reasonably complete as summaries go) of your arguments to date would be:

1.) Pentecostals and charismatics are a “tiny” minority of Christians, and God would not distribute spiritual gifts so unevenly;

2.) The gift of tongues, unlike any other spiritual gift, happens only in certain denominations and groups, and God would not distribute spiritual gifts selectively;

3.) Speakers in tongues don't know what they are saying, which does not make sense and therefore cannot be of God;

4.) There is no way to verify with certainty that an interpreted message in tongues or a prophecy is true, therefore such cannot be of God.

5.) Pentecostals and charismatics are weird!

If I missed or misunderstood something, I apologize. Basically, your arguments have been based on your own reasoning and your own, necessarily limited, historical-demographic experience. As I'll explain presently, I find that ironic. Summarizing my responses (my previous habit of responding post by post has the defect of spreading responses across multiple responses so the responses are not easily seen as a coherent whole):

1.) The premise of this argument is false. Pentecostals and charismatics are not a tiny minority of Christians. False premise, invalid conclusion. You also apply this reasoning selectively. It can also be used against:: those who baptize only believers; those who believe baptism is not necessary for salvation; those who believe the bread and wine in communion are symbols only; those who do not accept Apostolic-succession episcopal church governance; and many more doctrines and practices than my tiny sleep-fogged brain cares to try to recall at 4:40 in the morning. To be in the minority, even a minority of one, does not mean necessarily that one is wrong.

2.) The premise of this argument is both anachronistic and false. In reverse order, the charismatic movement started within non-Pentecostal denominations, and some 4 or 5 decades later, not a few charismatics choose to fellowship in churches of non-Pentecostal denominations/associations (including myself, and many others at the Baptist church where I fellowship). To the degree your observation is correct, what you perceive as uneven distribution is instead self-sorting. When what has come to be called the Pentecostal movement started a century ago, Pentecostals were driven out of the denominations to which they had belonged. At that point in time, the separation and segregation was largely contrary to their choosing. Pentecostal denominations were then formed for the sake of to provide for the practical needs of fellowship, ministry and outreach. The other side of this historical-demographic self-selection coin is that non-Pentecostal denominations and associations reject, sometimes vehemently, the more obviously miraculous gifts of the Spirit. Thus, to this day, members of those groups who do accept those gifts of the Spirit as valid (and dare to say so) are unwelcome, sometimes merely through verbal pressure and informal withdrawal of fellowship, and sometimes through being removed from positions of ministry or being kicked out of fellowship. So the seeming uneven distribution you observe is in fact a consequence of rejection and self-sorting: God isn't distributing gifts unevenly; rather, some of His people reject some of what He offers. God did not make humans robots, not in regard to salvation, not in regard to the gifts of the Spirit. Again, false premise, invalid argument.

3.) That is the way God designed the gift to operate, something Scripture makes clear. Your argument is with God's design.

4.) That is the way God designed those gifts to operate, something Scripture makes clear. Your argument is with God's design.

Going a step or two further with 3.) and 4.), what you see as an objection to speaking in tongues, interpretation, and prophecy being valid gifts of the Spirit (either generally or specifically in our modern context) is basically how Paul describes those gifts in proper use, in 1 Corinthians 14 and 1 Thessalonians 5. Why God designed those gifts to operate that way, Paul did not explain. As I speculated, perhaps this is why we speak of the Christian faith. My guess/speculation, going a bit farther, is that God designed these gifts to operate this way to induce believers to rely on God, dig deeply into His word, and fellowship deeply with each other (i.e. the bases for discerning whether a prophetic or interpreted utterance may or may not be “good”).

5.) To be sure, I stated this a bit more directly and bluntly than it was usually expressed – there have been some noteworthy exceptions – but I think my characterization quite fair and accurate. Weird (plus or minus the “!”) is, in this context, IMO, a synonym for unfamiliar. I suspect several in this discussion (and those who may have read much of this thread) similarly found the Scriptures my posts dealt with (and the meanings therein) a bit odd or weird. I think that, were the Apostle Paul to observe what we think of as “worship services” - Catholic Mass, Lutheran, Episcopal, Presbyterian, etc. liturgy, or Evangelical-Pentecostal-charismatic – he probably would have appreciated elements of each, but I think he would have found their overall format and operation fundamentally unfamiliar. Weird is in the eye and mind of the beholder.

Why do I find your reliance, ptc, on what I called “your own reasoning and your own ... historical-demographic experience” ironic? This area of discussion/debate/argument is fairly familiar to me. One of the common criticisms leveled at Pentecostals and charismatics – sometimes condescendingly or even derogatorily – is that Pentecostals and charismatics are ignorant of or ignore Scripture, relying instead on personal experience and emotions. I perceive a bit of that sort of unpleasant tone in some of nuthajason's posts:

no one online or in person has been able to sit with a bible and give me a good hermeneutical exposition to justify this practice


(no tiny out of context proof texts either please)


I am however very suspicious of anyone who calls themselves a prophet. For me the bible is all sufficient, for every good work.


(The Devil's) attack will be a false doctrine, lax biblical hermeneutics and pride of spiritual achievement or envy of others apparent ability and infilling - among many other attacks.


I believe we learn the will of the Spirit in the Word of God.


It may be that I'm a bit hypersensitive to this, and my perception is mistaken. Anyway, being weak in the Scriptures was something I never wanted to be/do, from my earliest days as a believer (well before encountering Pentecostal/charismatic teaching); this personal inclination was strengthened early in my walk as a believer by months of discussion with one of Jehovah's witnesses. So without being nutty-imbalanced in my reading and study, I've paid careful attention to and thought much on what the Scriptures teach concerning the Gifts of the Spirit. In this discussion, the reasoning/arguments presented have been the reverse of the stereotypes: the Pentecostal/charismatic position presented on the basis of Scripture; the argument against largely based on experience and reasoning apart from the Scriptures. I've wondered at times whether I'd soon hear narration by Rod Serling.

At any rate. as I've posted a couple of times before, nuthajason (who hasn't been around EfGfS for some 5 weeks … life happens) did state the proper standard for this kind of discussion:

nuthajason wrote:... sit with a bible and give me a good hermeneutical exposition ...


Our (believers') experiences and understanding are important (YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD ... WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND Matthew 22:37, Mark 12:30 ,Luke 10:27). But Scripture is foundational, not our imperfect and incomplete understanding and experience of the things of God. In discussions such as this, what Scripture says must be the foundation, and when Scripture speaks clearly, what it says must be understood as conclusive. If human understanding and experience are given equal or higher place than Scripture this (and other) discussion quickly devolves into a contest of whether the chandelier-swinging rug-rolling Pentecostal or the staid dry Fundamentalist can shout louder and more derisively.
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Re: why i stopped talking in tongues

Postby Philip » Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:29 am

I've not had time to comb through Pete's most recent posting on this, but I will respond to how he has framed what I've said.

Philip wrote: Pete, all that is great, your scriptural analysis. And I'm not saying that tongues are DEFINITELY not for now/modern times.


Pete's Statements / Philip's Responses:

That's a curious statement, as just a few posts previous to this one you posted a link to a webpage that claims and claims to proves that speaking in tongues ended when the New Testament was completed. Did you post it without taking its claim seriously?


No, I am merely revealing cautions, questions and observations. I'm still quite open-minded on this. I clearly believe that tongues were used in the 1st century church. But as I've said, many other manifestations of The Spirit were commonly demonstrated by the Apostles (instant healings, the removal of demons, miraculous works) that are far more rare and mostly not seen today.

Pete: At any rate, my good-faith summary (hopefully, accurate and reasonably complete as summaries go) of your arguments to date would be:


1.) Pentecostals and charismatics are a “tiny” minority of Christians, and God would not distribute spiritual gifts so unevenly;


Yes, this poses many questions.

2.) The gift of tongues, unlike any other spiritual gift, happens only in certain denominations and groups, and God would not distribute spiritual gifts selectively;


I would clarify this to mean as being manifest, MOSTLY, along denominational lines. And where not denominationally related, they appear to be separated into individual churches in which they are either used or never used - with the vast majority of both churches and individuals NEVER using them.

3.) Speakers in tongues don't know what they are saying, which does not make sense and therefore cannot be of God;


Don't put words in my mouth. I've asserted that I cant definitely say that ALL use of tongues is not of the Lord. But I am saying that if one cannot understand what either they or others are saying, unless clearly and VALIDATED as a confirmed/fulfilled prophecy, then I see little benefit to him. If YOU can't know what is being said, then you must trust an interpreter - TOTALLY. And so how does one validate what an interpreter says unless it can be substantiated as fulfilled prophecy? And how do you know THE SOURCE of the tongues if you do not understand them? And how can others that don't understand them know? They CAN'T!

4.) There is no way to verify with certainty that an interpreted message in tongues or a prophecy is true, therefore such cannot be of God.


See my response to #3. There IS a way - fulfilled prophetic utterances or if God reveals this truth to you. But if this is the case, then why the constant need for an interpreter?

5.) Pentecostals and charismatics are weird!


I've not said that! And that would seem to be a statement from insecurity and hyper sensitivity to what are obvious and natural questions that non-tongue speaking/interpreting believers actually have. What I have said is there are MANY, blatant freakshows of people running a circus in church, based upon the use of tongues. Many scarily so and quite likely demonically so. And, for most believers without either the gift of tongues or their interpretation, and given what is so commonly observed in churches practicing tongues, is it any wonder that many Christians should/would be skeptical if unenlightened otherwise. And this lack of enlightenment includes a vast number of evangelical pastors and theologians who are exceptionally skeptical and cautious concerning tongues.

Pete, I think you are trying to PROVE tongues are of God. And you are assuming that those who don't understand or speak them are mostly in denial and not really wanting to know the truth about them, or that they don't understand Scripture as well as you do. That's not reality and it's insulting to the vast millions of Christians who are uncertain and skeptical about this issue. You've only Scripturally opened some POSSIBILITY that modern tongues are of the Lord, but you have far from proven it. And as this is only something that GOD can reveal to those uncertain Christians (IF they are wrong about this), then you need to let it go. This is getting pointless.

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Re: why i stopped talking in tongues

Postby B. W. » Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:18 am

Let me step in here and stop a fight.

Pete is stating facts and demonstrating his position and showing that there are abuses of the gifts but does not act in fear of abuses to outlaw them. They should be permitted so the Church can grow in the degree God allows. That to me, is his main premise as well as mine.

Others, point out the abuses experienced or seen and justify their position based upon that and use the bible to buttress that position. That is okay too, I've witnessed and been the victim of abuse of the gifts myself. Because of abuses, is no reason to say any of the gifts no longer are valid for his people today. Our witnessing is weak and we do need empowered to live what Mat 28:18-20 says. The perfect has not come, by even by a long shot. Only when God says, It is done - will that perfect come. Until then, we need the Lord and all he has for us in the measures he promised.

One thing I noticed, is God's grace - his grace teaches us about the gifts and his grace permits mistakes so we can learn from them, not to do them again. His grace will lead us to his home run. Before one plays baseball, football, soccer one needs to develop the skills and knowledge of the game in order to play effectively as a team. If everyone wants to be first baseman in baseball - then your team will lose. You need all the positions in baseball covered and each member doing his job, in that way, none get hurt.

Learning to play the game involves commitment and yes, pain, to learn how to play right. Same goes on in Christ Church universal. The bible promises that The Holy Spirit will teach us, let's not silence this teacher when it comes to spiritual gifts in any form or shape. He teaches by the principle of grace.

One last point about the tongue issue; The bible on the gifts mention tongues of men and angelic beings. Both are gifts. I know many staunch Baptist who are anti-tongues, yet are empowered with the gift of tongues of men in that they give the most anointed and powerful life changing messages to their assemblies in the common language of their geographic area ... yet they deny that this gift is real - amazing!

Jonathan Edwards, John Wesley, Whitfield, Billy Sunday, Sam P Jones, Billy Graham all had the gift of the tongues of men, yet, I am not sure they even knew it. The gifts of tongues are not limited to only unknown varieties of human language a speaker speaks in, nor are they limited to only angelic prayer language either. We cannot put God or his giftings in a neat little box. Tongues for example can, and do involve language the common language we speak in with to communicate all aspects of the gospel so that faith increases in the hearer in such manner to change lives out of darkness into His glorious light!

Paul did say he desired all could speak in tongues takes on a deeper meaning does it not?
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Re: why i stopped talking in tongues

Postby klei4530 » Sat Feb 08, 2014 11:55 am

The title of this thread, "why I stopped talking in tongues" really tickled me. If you were truly speaking in tongues as the Holy Spirit gave you the utterance, then why would you stop doing what the Holy Spirit wanted you to do? You think you know better than God? LOL. Now, if you were faking it, then you did a good thing. There are definitely times when speaking in tongues is not appropriate and disruptive. That is why Paul had to straighten out the Corinthian church with a couple of chapters in the Bible. But at the end of Paul's criticism of the Corinthian church. He says in 1 Cor. 14:39, "Wherefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues." Paul is basically saying- Don't throw the baby out with the bath water! I'm amazed at how many anti-speaking in tongues folks can ignore or explain this away. God is clear in the Scriptures, do not forbid people to speak in tongues! Did Paul ever tell the Corinthian church that their speaking in tongues was of the devil because they were doing it at inappropriate times? Did he say that they were faking it because no one was interpreting their message. No. He said, "the spirits of the prophets are subject unto the prophet." (1 Cor. 14:32), which means just because you can give out a message in tongues or a prophetic message doesn't mean you should. Use your brain and ask yourself: Is someone else giving a message right now? Is this going to build up the church? Have there already been 3 messages in tongues given out? (I Cor. 14:27-33).

Let me explain something about speaking in tongues that is misunderstood by many. Not all speaking in tongues is meant to be interpreted. Sometimes when people are speaking/praying in tongues they are praying/worshipping God. "For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit." (1 Cor. 14:2). I'm amazed at the number of people who think that all speaking in tongues must be interpreted or it is not "of God", when the Scripture is so clear that it is of God. However, it can be at the inappropriate time. There is a definite difference between speaking in tongues and giving a message in tongues. I can tell you from experience that I know when the Spirit is going to give a message in tongues through me. It is a feeling in my heart I cannot describe. I always wait a few moments until there is an opportune time (no one else is talking/preaching/singing). Sometimes the message is not delivered and the feeling subsides. The interpretations of those messages are almost entirely direct quotes or paraphrase of Scripture. It's usually a Word in season. I don't remember anything prophetic (as in predicting the future). I would be suspicious of any tongue/interpretation that is predicting the future, and I would condemn anything that is contrary to Scripture. That is why Paul says, "Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge." So, what about these churches where everyone is speaking in tongues all at once? Well, it depends. If they are doing it while the pastor is preaching, then it is out of order and either the people are not taught the Scripture, or they know what the Scripture says and they are in rebellion. Either case, it's not good. However, if the pastor asks the people to pray and many people pray in the Spirit (in tongues), then that is fine. Paul says, "But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God." So, what defines "in church"? It is not the building, and it is not the believers (The Church). "In church" is what people came to hear. What did people come to church for? 1 Cor 14:26 tell us, "When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up." So, when there is someone singing, teaching, preaching, then it is not appropriate to speak in tongues, because this is being "in church". Can you imagine Paul seeking out believers to lay his hands on them to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and say, "OK, we have to go outside the church building, because speaking in tongues is not permitted inside the church building"? No, of course not. Being "in church" is singing worship songs, listening to teaching of Scripture, listening to preaching, and hearing messages in tongues and their interpretation.

Do we throw out tongues in the church because some people in the church have abused it? That is like throwing grace out of the church because some have abused it. I have seen the gifts of the Spirit abused and faked. I've seen church people with true gifts of the Spirit, but they were severely lacking in the fruit of the Spirit. I have been to churches where the gifts of the Spirit were practiced, but the fruit of the Spirit was lacking and I can tell you that it is not good. I went to a non-speaking in tongues church for 8 years, because I could not find a good Pentecostal church. Did that stop me from praying in tongues, worshipping in tongues at home, in my car? No, of course not. Did I speak in tongues in church where it was forbidden? Yes, but only in a whisper, and no one could hear. Having the gifts without the fruit is counterproductive to the kingdom of God. I certainly agree that speaking in tongues is not necessary, and that having no gifts of the Spirit operating is much better for the church than having the gifts of the Spirit abused or used inappropriately. But, God intends for the church of today to speak in tongues. "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2:39). Peter told the mockers at the day of Pentecost, "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy." So, if Peter considered the Holy Spirit baptism and speaking in tongues as a fulfillment of this Scripture, then it refers to the last days. If Peter was in the last days then we are really in the last days. The gifts of the Spirit will really be needed when the saints go through the Great Tribulation (Persecution) and the antichrist is performing "miracles". So, I leave you with these words of Paul, "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you." "Do not forbid speaking in tongues."

Keith

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Re: why i stopped talking in tongues

Postby Philip » Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:51 pm

So, if Peter considered the Holy Spirit baptism and speaking in tongues as a fulfillment of this Scripture, then it refers to the last days. If Peter was in the last days then we are really in the last days.

I am very dubious of your logic in your assessment of the above.

And there is a big difference between BANNING the use of tongues and in not being able to discern their authenticity (is this of the Lord?). Again, no amount of explaining this or quoting Scripture can reveal to one without this gift (or with the gift of interpretation) whether or not they are authentic for today. Or their source. Or their meaning. Or whether some interpreter is authentically interpreting messages of the Lord. And to not be skeptical and cautious when you don't know these things, to not be exceptionally wary, especially, when you well know the potential for counterfeit or for their sources to not be of the Lord - such a response should be very understandable.

To have known literally thousands of Christians over many decades in churches one has attended and yet, in these same churches, not having seen ANYONE speak in tongues; To have visited many, many churches and not having seen this - well, it begs many sincere questions in one's mind as to why this is not seen. And I can guarantee you it has nothing to do with tongues having been banned in such churches. And yet I am very aware of the circus shows in many churches practicing tongues. Bizarre stuff in many. Now, does this mean there aren't ANY authentic (God-induced, given), orderly usage of tongues today? I'm not prepared to say definitely not. But I also can't know what is beyond my experience or what God has enlightened me to. And, until then, I'll remain wary and cautious. But also, I would hope, open-minded. But I can't trust what I can't validate or don't know to be true. So trying to convince me with Scripture is insufficient. Other marvels of the Apostles are no longer obvious either - things that seemed to be common for them, but that obviously are no longer.

So, this is where I am on this topic. And that shouldn't tick ANYONE off.

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Re: why i stopped talking in tongues

Postby RickD » Sat Feb 08, 2014 7:17 pm

Pete, B. W.,

Tell me if this is fair. Anyone who speaks in tongues out loud, where others are present, without an interpreter, is practicing something unbiblical. Someone who is praying to God in tongues, quietly so nobody can hear, is speaking in tongues in accordance with scripture.
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Re: why i stopped talking in tongues

Postby neo-x » Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:59 am

RickD wrote:Pete, B. W.,

Tell me if this is fair. Anyone who speaks in tongues out loud, where others are present, without an interpreter, is practicing something unbiblical. Someone who is praying to God in tongues, quietly so nobody can hear, is speaking in tongues in accordance with scripture.


Its not unbiblical, its unorderly at best.
People treat facts as relevant more when the facts tend to support their opinions. When the facts are against their opinions, they don't necessarily deny the facts, but they say the facts are less relevant or insignificant. This is ofcourse because believing things that make you feel comfortable, takes a priority. And I think that should not be the case if one is after truth.

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Re: why i stopped talking in tongues

Postby Silvertusk » Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:15 am

RickD wrote:Pete, B. W.,

Tell me if this is fair. Anyone who speaks in tongues out loud, where others are present, without an interpreter, is practicing something unbiblical. Someone who is praying to God in tongues, quietly so nobody can hear, is speaking in tongues in accordance with scripture.



I am with you on this one Rick - which is unnerving.

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Re: why i stopped talking in tongues

Postby RickD » Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:23 am

Silvertusk wrote:
RickD wrote:Pete, B. W.,

Tell me if this is fair. Anyone who speaks in tongues out loud, where others are present, without an interpreter, is practicing something unbiblical. Someone who is praying to God in tongues, quietly so nobody can hear, is speaking in tongues in accordance with scripture.



I am with you on this one Rick - which is unnerving.

Gee, thanks for the vote of confidence. :shock: :lol:
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Re: why i stopped talking in tongues

Postby Kurieuo » Mon Feb 10, 2014 5:48 pm

Being brought up in churches where tongues was a norm, for what it's worth, I'd like to offer reflections from my own life.

Really, tongues simply forms a part of many Christian's practice of worship. It is often only performed during worship, groups praying for one another and one's alone time with God. It is really part of a fuller highly spiritualised doxology that plays a significant role in the relationship of many Pentecostal Christians to God. It even pays tribute if you will to the spiritual forces that are often behind the scenes in the world (Holy Spirit and fallen angels) and that they are really real. Something that more easily gets lost and buried on more intellectual, rational and empirically-minded Christians. Sadly, being highly spiritual in this manner can also mean one is easily lead astray from truth and correct doctrine which is replaced by a higher priority upon spiritual experience.

At the other end, those who are more intellectually inclined and inquisitive will find it hard to embrace such things and find it extremely difficult to just "join in". I know, because I can no longer return to this spirituality. And due to having grown up with such a high spirituality, this has left me feeling robbed and quite spiritually dry. It's like the two are incompatible. And to a great many Pentecostals, that'd even raise eyebrows... but I feel I've matured to the point I'm no longer swayed this way or that. Such spirituality no longer sustains my faith, but an authentic grounding in truth via my heart and mind do.

Ephesians 4:14 - "As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; 15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love."

Now ultimately, I think to ask the question of whether it is true, authentic or the like is simply the wrong questions to be asking. Truth is obviously important, but clearly it plays an important role in the life and worship of a great deal many Christians regardless of whether it was wrongly developed via certain Christian traditions or is actually a God-given gift.

I can only relate to my own experiences such that I'd no longer seek out this spirituality, nor can I return given how I've grown in my own Christianity and walk with God. It is now like a vestige of my life I can't return to, but pray one day I'll find this emotional-spiritual fulfillment that complements my rationality.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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klei4530
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Re: why i stopped talking in tongues

Postby klei4530 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:45 pm

No, I would not say that people who speak in tongues without an interpreter, and where people can hear are doing anything unbiblical or out of order. They are only out of order if they interrupt preaching, teaching, and singing. Sometimes when I am praying for someone, I don't know what to pray, so I pray in tongues. "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered." Romans 8:26 BTW, praying for someone in tongues doesn't freak out Pentecostals.

We do have to be careful not to associate the ability of someone to speak in tongues with high spirituality. As I said before, the gifts without the fruits are very detrimental. The true measure of someone's spirituality is how much love they show their fellow man. However, it is human nature to think that someone displaying the supernatural via the enabling of the Holy Spirit is very spiritual. The Corinthian church had to be informed that they were not spiritual. The church must have bragged about how much they spoke in tongues, but that is why Paul wrote I Cor. 13. I myself have unfortunately been guilty of praying in tongues as a display of my "spiritualty". I try not to do that anymore. :esad:

I agree we should be very wary of the use of tongues in church. To determine a message in tongues and interpretation is of God, one must have both an excellent knowledge of Scripture and the gift of discernment. A properly operating Pentecostal church must have at least a couple of people who possess both. Otherwise, you will see Satan rear his ugly head. If you earnestly desire to know whether tongues is real, or relevant for today, then earnestly pray for God to give you the gift of the Holy Spirit, and wait and pray. However, if you are convinced that the Scripture tells you that tongues are not for us today, then you will not receive the gift. The Holy Spirit is a gentleman and we must yield ourselves to Him. BTW, there is no Scripture that I know that says it's not for the church today. The "that which is perfect has come" explanation is ridiculous. Once you receive the gift, then pray for discernment to be able to find a church that properly operates in the gifts. They are rare. A decent percentage of the Pentecostal churches either stopped using the gifts or they abuse the gifts. I'm attending an AG church in Houston that is the most loving yet Pentecostal church that I've ever attended. They emphasize outreach and compassion over the gifts. Loving our neighbor is not nearly as exciting as experiencing the presence of God in a real supernatural way, but that is what God wanted us to do.

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Philip
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Re: why i stopped talking in tongues

Postby Philip » Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:51 am

So we are to seek out a church based upon our gifts? Seems like doing so with tongues is elevating them above the other gifts?

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Re: why i stopped talking in tongues

Postby Gman » Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:20 pm

You know.. I've often wondered if Fred Flintstone spoke in tongues.. ;)

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The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: why i stopped talking in tongues

Postby Philip » Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:43 am

Who knows, we're talking about a guy who uses his feet for brakes (probably never has to trim his toenails - not that he'd really WANT to trim them :esurprised: ).


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