Quick clearification question on sin

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cubeus19
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Quick clearification question on sin

Postby cubeus19 » Sun May 13, 2012 5:24 pm

Hi everyone I have a question regarding the various sins both believers and non believer commit. The question is rather simple, are all sins no matter how big or small they are to us are all equally bad in God's sight or does God view some sins worse than others?

Let's take two extremes, the sin of a small child taking an third cookie from the cookie jar when the child's mother said to only take two. And the next sin, the act of a satanic high priest who sacrifices a small infant baby to satan.

Now clearly in my mind and most other people's minds the second sin is much much worse than the first sin! But taking these two examples a toddler's disobedience to his mother and sacrificing a infant baby to satan according to how God views sin, are the two sins EQUALLY as bad in God's sight or is the second of the two sins (sacrificing a infant to satan) worse to God than a small child taking a extra cookie out of the cookie jar?

Now granted this has nothing to do with how much does a person have to sin to go to hell with believing in Christ as their savior since we all know full and well that a sin as small to us like a bad thought or even a child taking an extra cookie out of the cookie jar when told not to would be enough to condemn a person to hell.

No this has to do with how God views some sins versus others and about degrees of punishment that non believers have to suffer in hell. Do they all suffer the same torment for their sins or do some suffer more than others because their sins were more worse and or numerous than the sins of others?

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Re: Quick clearification question on sin

Postby RickD » Sun May 13, 2012 5:58 pm

No this has to do with how God views some sins versus others and about degrees of punishment that non believers have to suffer in hell. Do they all suffer the same torment for their sins or do some suffer more than others because their sins were more worse and or numerous than the sins of others?

B.W., if you're around, I'd love to hear your answer to this.
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Re: Quick clearification question on sin

Postby PaulSacramento » Mon May 14, 2012 10:24 am

There are "degrees" of sin of course, one who sins KNOWING it is a sin is guilt to a degree far more than one who sins without knowing.
The man that steals to feed his children commits a sin but compared to the rich man the steals to have more, it is far less of a sin.

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Re: Quick clearification question on sin

Postby cubeus19 » Thu May 17, 2012 5:51 pm

You know I've been asking this same question on another apologetics message board and can you believe someone there is actually saying that the toddler that took an extra cookie deserves the SAME amount of punishment that the satanist high priest gets???!! How sick is that!??

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Re: Quick clearification question on sin

Postby cheezerrox » Thu May 17, 2012 6:32 pm

This is an interesting question, and one that I've wondered about and continue to. I would say that there are degrees of punishment, and that some sins are worse in G-d's sight.
To quote a few Scriptures, James 2:10 says that one who has sinned in one way, has become as guilty as sinning in all ways. But, as you've already said, this has to do with guilt and condemnation, not with degrees of punishment.
Luke 12:47-48 seem to address this very question. In it Yeshua says, "And the slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will recieve many lashes, but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of flogging, will recieve but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more." In this parable, I believe He demonstrates that the principles of knowledge and conscience have an affect on one's punishment.
Then in Revelation 20:12 it says that at the Great White Throne Judgement, people will be judged "from the things which were written in the books according to their deeds." So, if all were to be punished exactly the same, it would seem unnecessary to judge their individual deeds as well.
Also, I believe that the varying punishments given in the Torah corresponding to different sins are another example of showing the principle of differing amounts of punishment. Torah also makes the distinction between sins committed intentionally and unintentionally, and while both are still labeled as sin and required atonement, there was a difference in the atonement required.
So, that's what I would say. My views on final punishment and hell are a bit unorthodox, as I tend to lean towards annihilationism, but, I hope I've helped answer your question some.
"The prophet is a man who feels fiercely. G-d has thrust a burden upon his soul, and he is bowed and stunned at man's fierce greed. Frightful is the agony of man; no human voice can convey its full terror. Prophecy is the voice that G-d has lent to the silent agony, a voice to the plundered poor, to the profaned riches of the world. It is a form of living, a crossing point of G-d and man."
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Re: Quick clearification question on sin

Postby RickD » Thu May 17, 2012 7:19 pm

Cheezerrox wrote:
So, that's what I would say. My views on final punishment and hell are a bit unorthodox, as I tend to lean towards annihilationism, but, I hope I've helped answer your question some.

So, according to your view, the one who committs the lesser of two sins, would get annihilated less? And someone committing a greater sin, would be a little more annihilated? Isn't that like being a little pregnant? :lol:
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Re: Quick clearification question on sin

Postby cheezerrox » Fri May 18, 2012 1:17 pm

RickD wrote:So, according to your view, the one who committs the lesser of two sins, would get annihilated less? And someone committing a greater sin, would be a little more annihilated? Isn't that like being a little pregnant? :lol:

Lol! Not quite. :lol: Annihilationism certainly isn't always presented too well, and as a result it can be misunderstood.
I believe that at the judgement, when those who've rejected G-d are thrown into the lake of fire, they'll suffer the allotted portion of suffering He's decided to give them based on their deeds, ending in complete destruction and non-existence. Being consumed is a good word for it, as they'd be thrown into hell, burn in the eternal flames, and end up destroyed forever. The second death, that's everlasting, just as the second birth is everlasting. One's full being is destroyed there (Matthew 10:28 comes to mind).
"The prophet is a man who feels fiercely. G-d has thrust a burden upon his soul, and he is bowed and stunned at man's fierce greed. Frightful is the agony of man; no human voice can convey its full terror. Prophecy is the voice that G-d has lent to the silent agony, a voice to the plundered poor, to the profaned riches of the world. It is a form of living, a crossing point of G-d and man."
- Abraham Joshua Heschel

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Re: Quick clearification question on sin

Postby Zionist » Fri May 18, 2012 2:05 pm

@ cheezerrox
i have the same view on punishment and annihilation. i always felt from my studies in the scriptures that the second death is in fact death. i never took the idea that hell was the domain of the devil where he rules. that idea or theory never made much sense to me actually. i dont think God would give him or his followers any kind of authority over others torment in the afterlife. i hold to the same view that ones punishment leads into the their ultimate demise and the severity of their punishment would be based upon their deeds. hence being blotted out from the book of life and the opposite of life is death. one thing is for sure though and that is nobody knows for sure so i would not go so far as to say im completely right or someone is completely wrong for their opposing view. We wont truly know til that time comes.
Our rightousness is of filthy rags and in the eyes of God all have gone astray and nobody is justified under the Law. We are saved by the Grace of God through our faith in Him and in Him who he has sent Jesus Christ alone. There is no other way.

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Re: Quick clearification question on sin

Postby RickD » Fri May 18, 2012 2:15 pm

What if ultimately, God is life? Eternity with God, is eternal life. And eternal separation from God, is the second death. In order to accept your view on annihalation, I would have to get past my belief that man's spirit, once created, is eternal. And, I agree that Satan has no rule over anyone, in hell, or the lake of fire. He is only the temporary ruler of this world. Not the one that he has chosen for eternity. JMOFWIW.
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9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

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"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


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Re: Quick clearification question on sin

Postby Zionist » Fri May 18, 2012 2:52 pm

@ Rick
I always thought the soul or spirit of man can die hence Matthew 10:28 and in 1st Corinthians 15 where it talks about the mortal putting on immortality. i think that means unless you are sealed by the HS your soul is liable to die. i dont know if that makes sense but that is what i always believed but then again i could be wrong. i have too also thought about eternal separation being the second death and i would say that it definitely is a possibility given we really don't know or can truly fully understand the spiritual things. I think that is why God is against spirit mediums and such (Deuteronomy 18: 10-11) because we cannot fully understand the spiritual i mean we can barely understand our planet; in fact, we're always finding out something new and look at how long it has taken man to be where he is today concerning knowledge about the planet he inhabits.
Our rightousness is of filthy rags and in the eyes of God all have gone astray and nobody is justified under the Law. We are saved by the Grace of God through our faith in Him and in Him who he has sent Jesus Christ alone. There is no other way.

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Re: Quick clearification question on sin

Postby cheezerrox » Fri May 18, 2012 3:03 pm

Zionist, I agree. My personal study of Scripture's brought me to the same conclusion. But, I would also completely agree with you that I don't know. I'm pretty convinced of this, but I certainly don't hold to it as Gospel. I don't think the concept of eternal torment is contrary to Scripture (I simply believe annihilationism fits the Scriptures better), and I certainly would never claim that it goes against G-d's Nature as many other proponents of the annihilation doctrine do as we could be wrong, and I would never dare judge the Judge of All Creation. Whatever it is, it's perfectly righteous and should and could be no other way.

RickD wrote:What if ultimately, God is life? Eternity with God, is eternal life. And eternal separation from God, is the second death. In order to accept your view on annihalation, I would have to get past my belief that man's spirit, once created, is eternal. And, I agree that Satan has no rule over anyone, in hell, or the lake of fire. He is only the temporary ruler of this world. Not the one that he has chosen for eternity. JMOFWIW.

Now see, I would agree that G-d is life. But, I disagree about man's spirit being eternal once created. That is a belief that I've personally come to believe isn't found in the Word, although again, I don't claim this as fact. I am pretty convinced of this in particular, though.
There's a lot of lengthy discussion on different passages we could have, but I just want to share one that I think is interesting.
Luke 20, Jesus is questioned by the Sadducees about the resurrection and marriage. Verses 34-38, Yeshua answers with this: "The sons of this age marry and are give in marriage, but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of G-d, being sons of the resurrection."
So here He's speaking specifically of those who're considered worthy to "attain to that age," ie, the believers. Then He says that they can't die anymore after being resurrected, being like angels. Angels are different, being spiritual beings, and are inherently immortal (Revelation 20:10, the three are said explicitly to be tormented forever and ever, and are spiritual beings. Yet humans aren't said to be tormented forever and ever). This is the reason that although hell is the "eternal fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), it is not a place of everlasting TORMENT for humans, though there surely shall be torment, but a place of everlasting DESTRUCTION (2 Thessalonians 1:9).
And then this calls to mind what Paul said about the resurrection for those in Messiah in 1 Corinthians 15:53. The perishable puts on the imperishable. And then the next verse, "but when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, 'Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?'" This is talking about becoming imperishable, immortal. Nothing to do with any spiritual life, but the state of existing. Those resurrected to judgement must not be resurrected into imperishability, as here Paul is clearly speaking only to the believers, and he says that this immortality will claim victory over death. Those resurrected judgement are subject to death, in all its meanings.
This all on top of the fact that I've never seen anyone really back up people inherently having immortal spirits with Scripture apart from Ecclesiastes 3:11, which is poetry and is translated in ways having nothing to do with "eternity" by certain translators, makes me doubt the doctrine. I'm sure there are other passages as well, though, that are simply slipping my memory.
But again, although I may come off strong in favor of this, I don't hold to it as fact. I certainly could be wrong, as there are many who are much more learned than me who disagree with me completely. I just am pretty convinced myself.
And yes, I don't think any orthodox, Bible-believing Christians really hold to the idea of the Adversary having control over hell and those in it. According to Scripture he's not really gonna have any time for that. Also, I must admit, I have no clue what JMOFWIW means, lol.
"The prophet is a man who feels fiercely. G-d has thrust a burden upon his soul, and he is bowed and stunned at man's fierce greed. Frightful is the agony of man; no human voice can convey its full terror. Prophecy is the voice that G-d has lent to the silent agony, a voice to the plundered poor, to the profaned riches of the world. It is a form of living, a crossing point of G-d and man."
- Abraham Joshua Heschel

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Re: Quick clearification question on sin

Postby BavarianWheels » Fri May 18, 2012 3:09 pm

cheezerrox wrote:I have no clue what JMOFWIW means, lol.


Just My Opinion, For What It's Worth. JMOFWIW... :)

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Re: Quick clearification question on sin

Postby cheezerrox » Fri May 18, 2012 3:10 pm

Ahhhh! I get it now. Thank you
"The prophet is a man who feels fiercely. G-d has thrust a burden upon his soul, and he is bowed and stunned at man's fierce greed. Frightful is the agony of man; no human voice can convey its full terror. Prophecy is the voice that G-d has lent to the silent agony, a voice to the plundered poor, to the profaned riches of the world. It is a form of living, a crossing point of G-d and man."
- Abraham Joshua Heschel

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Re: Quick clearification question on sin

Postby Zionist » Fri May 18, 2012 3:18 pm

i too have no clue what JMOFWIW means lol! cheezerrox wow it's awesome to know someone else who holds to the same understanding of 1st Corinthians 15. I never met someone who felt the same or interpreted it the way i have. most people i met try to use the chapter to be some proof of a pre trib rapture which i don't adhere to.
Our rightousness is of filthy rags and in the eyes of God all have gone astray and nobody is justified under the Law. We are saved by the Grace of God through our faith in Him and in Him who he has sent Jesus Christ alone. There is no other way.

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Re: Quick clearification question on sin

Postby jlay » Fri May 18, 2012 3:45 pm

Hi everyone I have a question regarding the various sins both believers and non believer commit. The question is rather simple, are all sins no matter how big or small they are to us are all equally bad in God's sight or does God view some sins worse than others?

Let's take two extremes, the sin of a small child taking an third cookie from the cookie jar when the child's mother said to only take two. And the next sin, the act of a satanic high priest who sacrifices a small infant baby to satan.


yes and no. In one sense you could say all sin is the same. And in another it is degreed. IMO it is a false dilema to make it an either or.
If one can 'store up wrath' then it would seem that there are degrees.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

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