Free will and Omniscience

[RickD]

Dan said-"God’s eternal choice, therefore, cannot depend on a foreseen faith, but must absolutely depend upon God’s eternal choice!" for some reason I don't understand this and feel like I should????

zacchaeus,I didn't understand what he was saying, either.
What Danny wrote there, is well known around here. It's called a Dannyism. He needs to dumb it down for the simple minded folk, like us.

[neo-x]

What Danny wrote there, is well known around here. It's called a Dannyism. He needs to dumb it down for the simple minded folk, like us.

[1over137]

Lets remember 1 Corinthians 14:33

I pray there will come a day I will not be confused about the Bible anymore.

In terms of freewill I mean the ability to choose God or deny Him...

I am meaning the same in this thread.

Also, if God knows everything why would He repent for ever even creating MAN in the first place, unless He didn't realize how bad we would really be? How can anyone like Moses change Gods mind if everything is predestined? Gen 6:1-13, Exodus 32:9-14

Gen 6:6 The Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
Exodus 32:14 So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.

It seems to me that not everything is predestined and determined. (Reminds me of quantum mechanics.)

1 Peter 1:6-9, 3:20, 4:15-19
2 Peter 1:20-21, 3:9

Numbers 22:1-8, 23:18-21
2 Tim 2:13, 3:16

Romans 1:21-23
Psalms 15:3, 44:21, 139:1-8, 147:5,
1 John 3:20,
Acts 15:8
Isaiah 46:10
Philippians 2:13, 4:6
Matt 6:8

1 John 3:20 in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things.

All things, really? This is in direct contradition with above verses from Genesis and Exodus. I am so confused.

Psalms 139:1-8 O Lord, You have searched me and known me. You know when I sit down and when I rise up; You understand my thought from afar. You scrutinize my path and my lying down, And are intimately acquainted with all my ways. Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O Lord, You aknow it all. 5 You have enclosed me behind and before, And laid Your hand upon me. 6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; It is too high, I cannot attain to it. Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.


Confusion arised. Is there someone who can reconcile Gen 6:6, Exodus 32:14 with 1 John 3:20 and Psalms 139:1-8?

[DannyM]

Danny, could you please define free will, in the context of this conversation? Like I said before, maybe "free will" isn't the proper term. But, for the sake of me trying to understand you, I need to know how you are defining that, and also how you define "predestination" as it applies here. I just see a whole lot of people saying different things, but I think most of the beliefs here aren't really as far apart as they seem.

Rick, like I have said from the start, I believe God created us to act freely. But we are not independent from God, and God works in man freely and spontaneously to will according to His good pleasure:

Phil. 2:13
for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

We are not free from our desires, but we aren’t coerced into sinning. We are free to act according to our desires. But no-one is born of themselves, or has a completely ‘free’ will - a will which is totally uninfluenced or uncorrupted in any way.

[DannyM]

I'm not sure you read my last post and or looked at all the scriptures. I believe in both... just I don't personally know my own self to what extent nor do I understand how or how any of it works.................!!!!!!!!!

Zac, I read all your Scriptures. I wasn't sure of the exact point you were trying to make with them. Could you tell me?

[DannyM]

Dan said-"God’s eternal choice, therefore, cannot depend on a foreseen faith, but must absolutely depend upon God’s eternal choice!" for some reason I don't understand this and feel like I should????

zacchaeus,I didn't understand what he was saying, either.
What Danny wrote there, is well known around here. It's called a Dannyism. He needs to dumb it down for the simple minded folk, like us.

Rick, if it is God who begins the work in us prior to our faith, then it is He and not man who makes the difference between the quick and the dead. If we believe in Christ, then it is because we have first been quickened. Therefore, man's salvation simply cannot depend on a foreseen faith, and must depend on God's eternal choice. Make sense?

[1over137]

Zac, I read all your Scriptures. I wasn't sure of the exact point you were trying to make with them. Could you tell me?

I also read them all and do not understand why he posted some verses. In my post above I picked those which seems to contradict and which I am interested in. Could you Zac tell us what you do not understand about the verses you posted? Verse by verse?

[RickD]

Danny, could you please define free will, in the context of this conversation? Like I said before, maybe "free will" isn't the proper term. But, for the sake of me trying to understand you, I need to know how you are defining that, and also how you define "predestination" as it applies here. I just see a whole lot of people saying different things, but I think most of the beliefs here aren't really as far apart as they seem.

Rick, like I have said from the start, I believe God created us to act freely. But we are not independent from God, and God works in man freely and spontaneously to will according to His good pleasure:

Phil. 2:13
for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

We are not free from our desires, but we aren’t coerced into sinning. We are free to act according to our desires. But no-one is born of themselves, or has a completely ‘free’ will - a will which is totally uninfluenced or uncorrupted in any way.

Ok, we're making progress here. We agree on these two points.

[RickD]

Rick, if it is God who begins the work in us prior to our faith, then it is He and not man who makes the difference between the quick and the dead.

I agree that God begins the work in us, prior to our faith. But I'll also add that "our faith" is enabled by God. That may be the same thing that you're saying, however. When you say "the quick and the dead", what specifically do you mean? The judgment of the quick and dead?

If we believe in Christ, then it is because we have first been quickened.

I agree. We can't accept Christ on our own power. I think the disagreement here, comes from what God does to "quicken" a person, before one can accept the gospel. There's a whole range of beliefs.
From:

1) God choosing who is saved, without man having any say in the matter. In this case, man cannot resist the calling of God, because God chose that person before the foundation of the world. And the corollary to that, is that God chose from His ultimate will, that some were doomed to eternity apart from God's presence. Also, with man having no choice in that matter. That leads to the question of what is the purpose of loving our neighbor, and preaching the gospel, if those who God chose, are already destined to eternity with Him, or apart from Him. One could argue that God tells us to love our neighbor, and preach the gospel. But what would the purpose be?
To:

2) Man having absolute free will in choosing to accept or deny Christ. Without God's influence in any way.
Both extremes, are unbiblical, IMO.

And there are many beliefs in between.I would say I fall somewhere in the middle, with my beliefs. While I believe there is no "absolute" free will, and all our choices are influenced to some degree, I also don't hold to such a "drastic" belief, that God chose some for everlasting life, and also chose some to eternity apart from Him. I think that God, being omniscient, knew who would ultimately accept Him. And who would ultimately deny Him. He uses both, to accomplish His ultimate will, and purpose. For example, I believe God hardened Pharaoh's heart, because Pharaoh ultimately chose to harden his heart to God, and God knew Pharaoh's heart.
I still cannot reconcile God choosing, without any doing on man's part, eternal damnation for some people.

Therefore, man's salvation simply cannot depend on a foreseen faith, and must depend on God's eternal choice. Make sense?

Man is given saving faith from God. Man cannot have that kind of faith on his own. It's a kind of influenced free will, so to speak. As opposed to absolute free will on man's part, which I believe isn't possible in this, or any case.

[RickD]

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/p ... ation.html

Predestination

In order to fulfill His prophecies, God must predestine history to a certain degree. The Bible clearly indicates that God predestined redemptive history, specifically, the coming of the Messiah. Jesus clearly indicated that His coming was planned, including His death:

But He said to them, "I must preach the kingdom of God to the other cities also, for I was sent for this purpose." (Luke 4:43)
"Now My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, 'Father, save Me from this hour'? But for this purpose I came to this hour. (John 12:27

People chosen by God for salvation

The Bible indicates that certain people are chosen by God for His purposes. Examples include King David,3 the Levites as the priests of God,4 Abraham,5 and the tribe of Judah.6

The New Testament says that God has elected or chosen people for salvation. Jesus used the Greek word eklektos7 to refer to those who were chosen by God during the end times.8 Jesus indicated that He chose the apostles for God's work and that it was not their own choice.9

Paul also uses the term "elect" to describe those who follow Jesus Christ.10 Paul tells us that we were chosen "before the foundation of the world,"11 which is reaffirmed by John in the book of Revelation.12 Paul also tells us that we were predestined by God to follow Jesus Christ.13 In addition, good works were prepared for us "that we might walk in them."14 Jesus Himself indicated that He had chosen Paul as a minister of the gospel.15 James indicates that God has chosen the poor people of the world for salvation.16

Presumably, evil people who are predestined to serve the purposes of God through their evil will eventually go to hell. However, they still possessed free will and would have done evil under any circumstances. So, the Bible indicates that God placed them in history to fulfill His purposes, knowing that they would do evil. God did not cause them to do evil, since God is not the author of evil.

Free will

There are many verses that specifically state that people have free will to execute their own choices. In the book of Deuteronomy, God Himself tells the people to choose to follow Him to receive His blessings:

"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, (Deuteronomy 30:19)

Joshua tells the people to choose to serve God or the idols of their neighbors.

"And if it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." (Joshua 24:15)

Many other Old Testament verses tell us to choose to follow the Lord.24 Obviously, choice is not possible if everything is predestined.

Besides the verses that tells us directly to make choices, there are hundreds of verses that tell us how we are to live. Obviously, following this advice requires free will and the ability to choose. So, the Bible indicates pretty clearly that we are to make choices. If everything is predestined, then choice is not possible.

Christ died for some?

Some in the radical predestination camp claim that Jesus Christ died only for the elect. However, the Bible teaches quite clearly that Jesus Christ died for the sins of all people and wants all people to come to repentance. This does not mean that Jesus' death provides salvation for those who resist God's call. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. (John 3:16)
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." (John 12:32)
For the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. (Romans 6:10)
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. (1 Corinthians 15:22)
For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, that they who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf. (2 Corinthians 5:15)
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. (1 Timothy 4:10)
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, (Titus 2:11)
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; (1 Peter 3:18)
Heb 7:26-27, 9:11-12, 10:10 and I Pet 3:18

Conclusion Top of page

I have tried to present a balanced examination of the issues regarding free will and predestination. It is obvious that the Bible teaches both concepts. Ultimately, I believe that God directs history. However, I do not believe that He micro-manages history. In other words, I think God places people in history so that His will is accomplished. This includes putting His followers, in addition to those who oppose Him, at strategic points in history. The Bible encourages us to use our free will to choose good over evil.

...as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." (Joshua 24:15)

[1over137]

I still cannot reconcile God choosing, without any doing on man's part, eternal damnation for some people.

I have not understood this sentence. What you cannot reconcile with what?

[RickD]

I still cannot reconcile God choosing, without any doing on man's part, eternal damnation for some people.

I have not understood this sentence. What you cannot reconcile with what?

I cannot reconcile the drastic belief that some hold to, that God chooses some people to be eternally damned, in hell,
With these bible verses, to start:

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. (John 3:16)
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." (John 12:32)
For the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. (Romans 6:10)
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. (1 Corinthians 15:22)
For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, that they who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf. (2 Corinthians 5:15)
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. (1 Timothy 4:10)
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, (Titus 2:11)
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; (1 Peter 3:18)
Heb 7:26-27, 9:11-12, 10:10 and I Pet 3:18

[Philip]

RickD wrote:I still cannot reconcile God choosing, without any doing on man's part, eternal damnation for some people.

It's VERY simple. God chose before our births our eternal destinations, based upon: 1) His merciful and loving choice to love us and reach to us FIRST; 2) To give us free will and a choice (which He also provided, in Jesus, and also to either embrace or reject. Note, without GOD'S choice to give us free will and, most critically, to make possible and provide a saving Choice/through Jesus, there would be no salvation for anyone.) AND 3) according to whether or not we would eventually (during this life) embrace His decision to approach us FIRST, (and through His promptings, to obey His commands (to repent, accept Christ) or not. God decided to love us (first), and to provide a way (through Jesus) and thus lead us to salvation and eternal life - to all those He always knew (before anyone was born) would listen, understand, obey and love Him BACK. But we can embrace God's Spirit's promptings and leadership OR we can reject them. Those who embrace His promptings, GOD will lead them, all the way to belief and salvation (which are things only HE can do - and does - but yet in which WE also must be open to and thus embrace His promptings and leadership to belief and salvation).

There is no contradiction between God's choosing before our births and our ability to choose a totally free, unearnable, and unmerited Choice (Jesus) - ALL of which ONLY HE has made possible! Our choice and ability to decide (or reject, Jesus), the parameters of our free will, as well as our saving solution (Jesus), and God's prompting and leadership to salvation, ALL come from GOD'S choices to love and provide a way for those whom He always knew would love Him BACK.

[RickD]

RickD wrote:I still cannot reconcile God choosing, without any doing on man's part, eternal damnation for some people.

It's VERY simple. God chose before our births our eternal destinations, based upon: 1) His merciful and loving choice to love us and reach to us, FIRST; 2) To give us free will and a choice (which He also provided, in Jesus, and also to either embrace or reject. Note, without GOD'S choice to give us free will and, most critically, to make possible and provide a saving Choice/through Jesus, there would be no salvation for anyone.) AND 3) according to whether or not we would eventually (during this life) embrace His decision to approach us, FIRST, (and through His promptings, to obey His commands (to repent, accept Christ) or not. God decided to love us (first), and to provide a way (Jesus) through and lead us to salvation and eternal life - to all those He knew (before anyone was born) would listen, understand, obey and love Him BACK. But we can embrace God's Spirit's promptings OR we can reject them. Those who embrace His promptings, GOD will lead them, all the way to belief and salvation (which are things only HE can do - and does - but yet which also WE must be open to and that we embrace His promptings and leadership to belief and salvation).

There is no contradiction between God's choosing before our births and our ability to choose a totally free, unearnable, and unmerited Choice (Jesus) - ALL of which ONLY HE has made possible! Our choice and ability to decide (or reject, Jesus), the parameters of our free will, as well as our saving solution (Jesus), and God's prompting and leadership to salvation, ALL come from GOD'S choices to love and provide a way for those whom He also knew would love Him BACK.

philip, that's not what I can't reconcile. This is what I can't reconcile. Specifically the part I put in blue:

Unconditional Election

Unconditional Election is the doctrine which states that God chose those whom he was pleased to bring to a knowledge of himself, not based upon any merit shown by the object of his grace and not based upon his looking forward to discover who would "accept" the offer of the gospel. God has elected, based solely upon the counsel of his own will, some for glory and others for damnation (Romans 9:15,21). He has done this act before the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1:4-8)

From this link:http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/

[PaulSacramento]

Certainly God will save who he wishes to save, just as God shows mercy on whom He wishes to show.
BUT we also know that God is a God of love and justice and that God's justice IS, indeed MUST BE, far greater and more correct than ours.
If that is so, then God predestinaing some for eternal damnation before humans even came into existence is NOT Just nor is it love.